Hard Gainers and Relaxin levels

Could you please elaborate on this? Why does stress increase reactivity with chemicals? Why would the reactions necessarily cause growth? Does the stress have to be constant? Links would be helpful, as well.

I thank thunder for bringing that thread to our attention. Very interesting read, highly dangerous and I personally would stay well clear of the PE proposals in there.

In this thread, we are proposing something more subtle avoiding a systemic overflow.

As posted earlier -

“Let’s get the theory back into perspective in summary form -

- Traction such as an extender = constant force of biomechanical stress

- Constant force of Biomechanical stress = increase in tissue metabolism

- Increase in cellular tissue metabolism = receptiveness to chemical aid and potential for accelerated growth

Papaverine is potentially a candidate as the chemical aid, but I stress topically, and finely tuned to release in a finite rate over the period of stress, to give maximum results. We are avoiding the pitfalls of injections, systemic overspills by high dosages such as in ED treatment, and priapisms.”

Tissue under stress wether it be bone, soft tissue etc will adapt to that stress. Adaptation is a physio/ chemcal response resulting in an increase of site specific cellular metabolism. Greater cellular metabolism will result in a greater turnover of cell nutrients. Such a site becomes receptive, almost sensitised to chemical assistance. The art is identifying how to deliver this assistance with out systemic complications.

Here is an interesting link for example -

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … 1&dopt=Abstract

Lets take Extenders, for example, they are offering a bio-mechanical environment of constant stress, especially if they are able to be worn daily for 12 hours plus over a significant time-scale of 6 months. Logic prevailing, we then have a constant increase in site metabolism, a subtle increase. Subtle increases could be exploited by low rate chemical assitance avoiding systemic overspills, spikes and ensuing complications. Topical application, for example, a patch, would be an excellent method to meet the subtle rate of delivery.

Theoretically it could be a good product. Remember a lot of these products are based upon inconclusive studies. Positive side for PE is the potential for enhanced protein synthesis and general good health. Products like these are theroretically synergists to protein synthesis. From a DHT point of view Zinc and B6 is not good news.

Creatine is interesting. It is well proven and retains water. Now, retention of water is not a bad thing as it can make tissue more plastic. Logic prevailing, ligaments and soft tissue could be more responsive to deformation. Lots of PE’ers advocate drinking a lot of water daily, actually this makes sense for ligaments and soft tissue. Creatine has been claimed to have a potential aphrodisiac capacity, by what mechanism I do not know.

DHT is dangerous to jump into with out doing your homework. The other thread, cited by thunder, got into dangerous waters, and it was rightly vigorously defended by some members as being foolish and dangerous.
However that does not mean we cannot still talk about DHT as being an ideal chemical assitance candidate at much lower doses.

This thread is to provoke a simple theory, why, because sometimes “less is more” !

Some more interesting links -

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … 9&dopt=Abstract

http://infoscie nce.epfl.ch/get … est&recid=33832

Well you could, poppies are very easy to grow.

Other links -

http://web.mit. edu/be/pdf/Tsch … rlin_Nature.pdf

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … t&holding=f1000

http://web1.tch .harvard.edu/re … dSci-Ingber.pdf

Lab Man

I do not have a medical education, But I have been working out on and off for many years, So I would state that I know my body, And I can feel what kind of excercises work (also the way it is performed), And I think that it is really important to feel/know what is working. And I actually think that it is the same with PE excercises, You have to feel that it is working, If not then you are just fumbling around in the dark.
During this time I have used a lot of different supplements, But there is only 2 of them that I really felt was working: Metdystene and Creatine (of course you have to make sure that you are getting the vitamins that you need, have a good diet, And plenty of rest/sleep etc.)
This was just a little background information, Now back to the topic.

Metdystene is the name of the product I used, It is not legal to sell this product in Norway, But it is sold in Sweden, It is actually the companys most popular/sold product right now. It is supposed to increase the bodys testosteron production, It has been tested, And the conclusion was that the users had a increase in muscle mass, And a reduction in body fat. When I used it the last time, I was not working out at all, only PEing, And the things I noticed was: Big reduction of body fat, Small increase in muscle mass, Increase in sexual appetite, I was more calm/less stressed, Better sleep quality, And I got PE gains quite quickly. This was during my first 1-2 months of PE, So the gains could be from stretching the ligaments, And so called newbie gains.
I still have some pills, So I am going to start using them again and see if I start gaining again.
If a higher testosteron production is benificial for PE, Then this product migth be a good supplement?

As for Creatine, I have a lot of tests that has been done on this product, Conclusion is that it works and has no negative side effects. The tests is written in Norwegian, And are full of medical expressions, So I would not be able to translate them to English. As you wrote, Everybody seems to belive that drinking a lot of water is good for you, And with that in mind maybe Creatine could be a good PE supplement?

Lab Man

Here is a few other supplements that increases the production of testosteron:

ZMA:
A resent studie at the Washington University was looking at the effects of a supplement called “ZMA”, This is a unique combination of high quality Zink, Magnesium asparate, And vitamin B6, Put together in a perfect combination. Blood tests of the test group showed an increase in natural testosteron of 32,4%, And an increase in free testosteron of 33,5%, In contrast to the placebo group that had an decrease in natural testosteron of 10,5%, And an decrease in free testosteron of 10,2%.
I shorted it down a little (had to translate it), But i am sure that you can find this test on your own.
It contains Zink and B6, So maybe not a good supplement for PE?

Tribulus Terrestris:
Bulgarian scientists found that Tribulus could raise the testosteron production by raising the blood levels of
the “luteinizing hormon” (LH), This hormon is responsible for the regulation of the testosteron levels.
One of the studies showed that a daily dose of 750 mg tribulus given to healty men, Raised their SH with an average of 72%, And increased the free testosteron level by 42%.

Essencial fat acids (translation?):
Studies has shown that if you decrease the intake of the healthy fat, Then the free testosteron levels also decreases. I really shorted down this one :)

And a few others:

Beta-ecdystene

Acetyl-L-Carnitine

Avena satvia

If the testosteron levels have any effect on PE, Then maybe some of these supplements could help?

At least they are good supplements for the guys that work out.

Lab Man

To get back to your theory:

Constant force of biomechanical stress = increase in tissue metabolism

A greater force = further increasement in tissue metabolism? Or smaller/no increasments in tissue metabolism?

A member here quoted Arndt Shultz law:

Week stimuli slightly accelerate the vital activity, Middle-strength stimuli raise it, Strong ones supress it, And very strong ones halt it.

When reading some of the tests performed in your links, It seemed like they used a very low stress?

What would be the ideal grade of stress/force when using an extender? A higher stress will maybe help stretching the ligaments, But will it still be the optimal force for stimulating cell growth?

http://www.norm … i/Crystals.html

Labman,

I was just searching for a natural way to increase relaxin levels and found this product http://vitalaxin.ws/ the site claims that increasing relaxin would ‘strengthen ligaments’. Surely this is not our aim?

Very interesting personal experience.

I agree with you, in the case of supplementation, it does come down to, what proves to work for the individual. Supplements are extremely hyped, on the back of proprietory studies rather than medical research. However, their efficacy does get reinforced (or not) from their track record with individual use. There are many good bodybuilding forums that publicise such information.

Your personal experience regarding your initial gains is interesting. Remember having optimum endogenous levels of Testosterone for a male is good news for overall good health. Testosterone is involved in a large number of metabollic pathways that maintain good health, not of least, it is a precursor to many other important hormones. If I recall, you posted your gains were in the regions of 2cm, I think this reflects more than just stretching of ligaments or so called newbie gains. Your personal experience, could be grounds for an interesting correlation with the supplementation?

As you say, what would be interesting, is that gains are achieved or boosted, whilst you resumed taking the supplements. This would then infer, on reasonable grounds of logic, that the supplements were indeed influencing chemical/ physiolofical pathways.

I agree with that Creatine has all the right things going for it as perhaps an optimiser for PE. There are even topical versions of creatine.

There is no question, there is an upper limit of mechanical strain that a tissue will repond positively to.
Apoptosis will take place under excessive strain. Parallels can be taken from the world of Orthodontics, Wound Healing, Bone growth etc, where it has been noted, that excessive mechanical stimulation of tissue will result in apoptosis. I believe there is also a case study in over-inflated penal implants doing the same.

Some of the studies, I quoted in other posts, were at microscopic level, although the forces were small, if one was to scale this up, to the tissue of the penis replicating such intercellular forces, you are looking at something much larger than even extenders exert. In fact, it is even postulated that the forces used in the extenders are at the week end of the scale. To you and I, with the pain we suffer every hour, it might feel that average forces of 1200gr are extreme. But what we are suffering, is from the force being translated through a small contact area, giving rise to localised tissue pressure, pain through pinching of nerves, loss of circulation etc.

I personally believe, that there is a good case for, tissue adaptation and growth responses increasing, if extenders could ramp tension upto circa 2500gr from 1000gr, say for a holding period of 7 to 10 mts every hour over 12 hours. The problem is, as always, how do we attach the extender to give an even strain over the penal tissue to avoid localised attachment pain? If you could truly solve this with out complications, you would have the ideal extender!

This was a throw away marketing line. What we need to do here, is redefine "strengthen ligaments". Firstly, I am familiar with this product and the potential consumers that they are aimed at, mainly people suffering form fibromyalgia. Such people have been found to suffer from "shortened and contracted" collagen structures such as connective tissue. As we know, relaxin has a diverse range of effects on collagen itself, from the production of, remodelling, increase in elasticity and relaxation. In the case above, and the appeal to a fibromyalgia consumer, "strengthen ligaments" should be elaborated upon as perhaps "to revitalise ligament’s elasticity and relaxation capabilities".

Relaxin has been shown to have a positive tension reduction effect on stretched soft-tissue. It is very possible that a tweak in your relaxin levels cold make hard to stretch ligaments more responsive.

Vitalaxin has a sister product Biolaxin. This product comes in a topical form, maybe more interesting?

Lab Man

My gains so far: FSL 2,3 cm while wearing the extender, EL 2 cm, EG + 2 cm (base). I don`t measure often.
Most of the gains came during the first 3-400 hours with the extender (almost 900 now), I was also doing jelks and stretches. I was using Metdystene, And Creatine during most of this time.

I have not stopped gaining, But it is a lot slower now, And I mostly gain girth now. I started taking Metdystene again 3 days ago, So I will report back to you if the gaining boosts from this.

There are a lot of members here that gain quite quickly in the beginning, But it seems to slow down a lot later on, But there are also some that continue to report good gains.

I have been wondering if I use to much tension now, And if that is why the gains has slowed down, And that is why I asked you about this. I actually read a thread on the jes forum where they wrote that the jes proto type had a max setting of 3000 gr, But they set it to 1500 gr on the production model to be on the safe side.
This was done to be sure that it did not hurt the nerves or vessels.

After what you wrote I don`t think that the tension is the problem.

And there are some good news for us :)

Monkeybar is devoloping a new head piece for the extenders, And I think it will be a lot better than what we have today! It is being tested now, And hopefully it won`t take to long before it is possible to buy it.

You can check out his thread about this, There are some pictures of his “old” type head piece there, And it looks really good compared to the loop and strap types.