Stopping/Controlling Anxiety by Any Method

This thread was split from Zoloft / SSRI’s / Off the Wall Women.

You wouldn’t die, if you slowly build up the dosage. In fact, almost anybody can take a much higher dosage if you increase dosage slowly. I started with 1-2 tylenol 3’s. After a few years, I reached 240 mg of oxycontin. The combo at my last dosage (benzodiazepines + opiates) would kill me today also because I stopped taking them for many months and the tolerance has gone away.

I didn’t mean to imply that taking those drugs was good for my health and there were no risks. Far, from that. Respiratory depression and even death can occur when you combine opiates and benzodiazepines at such high dosages and if dose escalation is not done slowly. But from a strict economic perspective, I accomplished a lot. In fact, if I could have worked 3-5 years more with my previous salary I’m pretty sure I could have retired without having to work again. I was making 10x the salary with medication versus non-medication.

If you have a heart disease you think you can figure for yourself the diagnosis and what the best treatment is? Why would a mental disorder be any different? Is there something special about the mind/brain that make it not susceptible to disease/disorders in comparison to other organs? If you’re mentally fucked up, do you really think you can self-diagnose and treat yourself? That’s a recipe for disaster, in my opinion. I agree with you though, that mental problems are very difficult to treat and diagnose and the drugs are pretty shit. But all the nutrition, exercise and self-talk is going to do very little for people with serious mental conditions/disorders. I’ve worked in a psychiatric hospital and had to deal with patients with severe bi-polar, depression and schizophrenia. If we didn’t do something drastic these people would be dead.

It is far better to have a patient’s attention and involvement in any case. Even a combative investment by the patient is superior to an apathetic attitude to any treatment. The question is how can I harness this involvement and place it even in a superior level of wellness?

That’s true twatteaser. That’s why psychiatry/medicine is as much of an art as a science.

Bohm, I am resurrecting this thread because it touches on stuff that I find interesting, and possibly parallels some of my own thoughts.

Specifically, I have a lot of anxiety, especially in the workplace. If I could take some magic drug — whether an SSRI or an opiate or a whatever — that is what I would do. As you pointed out, when you were taking a combo of clonazepam plus oxycontin, it “worked well for a few years.” Economically and scholastically you did amazing on it! If I could find a combo that worked well, hell, I feel like I could conquer the world, and I sure as shit wouldn’t readily give it up!

So I am wondering, why did you give it up?

And, when you were on this combo, did you feel like “the real you”, or did you feel like someone else? Was anxiety truly at bay, or was it just beneath the surface?

I agree with you completely. I didn’t want to give it up, at least until 2015. After that I was planning on retiring, as I would have made enough money. I gave it up because of the following reasons:

1. Pressure from wife and family.
2. I was working too much, for too long and I ended up building up tolerance faster than I could have had I not used it as often.
3. Some side-effects: constipation, cognitive deficits, inter-dose withdrawal, when for whatever reason, I couldn’t get access to enough medication.
4. Constantly having to find and hide the medication from my wife, co-workers, etc.

I managed to convince one of my psychiatrists to agree to get my family doc to just put me on 4 mg clonazepam but by the time it was too late. Personally, my mistake was the narcotics. I accidently took some tylenol 3s because of a headache and by accident I discovered that the combo of benzodiazepines + narcotics was an anxiety stopper (much better than benzodiazepines alone). Unfortunately, there are risks: respiratory depression, intense drowsiness in less busy, boring times, studying, etc. The good thing is that the 8 years went buy really fast. Honestly, I wouldn’t have changed anything except I would have tried to be much more methodical about it: adjusting work/school schedule to minimize drug use, appropriate dose to minimize tolerance, etc. I’d never tell that to my psychiatrist or College though. Also, I don’t believe in giving only professionals special access/control of these drugs. But I’m really fucked up when it comes to free use of drugs. And in my opinion most of the psychiatric drugs aren’t as useful as advertised.

I agree with you on many things you mention.

I don’t know why I can’t decide for myself what drugs I want to use, whether it is steroids, marijuana, or aspirin. Including opiates and other controlled drugs. I understand that some people will abuse them — maybe I would? — but shouldn’t that be up to me?

Was the combo you did a 100% anxiety stopper, or just enough to function better?

You think you could stave off building a tolerence completely, knowing what you know now? Or no matter what over time you get used to the opiates and have to increase the dose? (I ask because I take sleeping pills — zopiclone — which is highly addictive, and have done so for two years. I have two rules: never take more than pill, and never more than 2 nights consecutively. Using this disciplined method means I could take it forever because I don’t build up a tolerance. I have read horror stories of people taking 20+ pills to fall asleep and I think “how did you let that happen?”)

Hey guys, got to throw my 2 cents in here. I was actually thinking of posting a thread regarding SSRI’s and their effect on libido but this is more in line with what I want to discuss.

Little background and some insights I have.

Three years ago I made a mess of myself. I was in a nasty divorce, had business problems and my girlfriend was giving me shit and starting to drift. More about my little girlfriend freak later. I was having some serious anxiety issues. Prior to this I was generally physically healthy late 40’s.

So I go to my doctor and explain the circumstances. He prescribes me Lexapro 10mg (Escitalopram). I took that for close to a year every day. It did seem to give me some clarity back to my life. Remarkably the greatest joy and benefit I received was it’s ability to control my premature ejaculation. I had always been a quick comer, sometime sooner than others. I had tried to control it over the years with various supplements and creams etc. But the Lexapro became the remedy. I could last as long as I wanted! Combined with a dose of Viagra or C and I was a fucking stallion! The girlfriend was actually mad that I never came! It was heaven.

First part of this year I go back to the doctor because the prescription has to be followed up every year. We discuss the Lexapro. It was slightly costly and so we decide to switch me to Citalopram 20mg (Celexa). It didn’t seem to make too much difference on the anti-depression-anxiety side. But I didn’t seem to have the same control ejaculation wise. Just couldn’t control it like the Lexapro.

In August I decided to take a break from the SSRI stuff. My life was back in order, I don’t like being dependant on any form of prescribed drugs, I was hitting the gym 5 days a week, and life was back in shape. So I used up my last Celexa and purchased no more. I had heard of this via the web but then I experienced it firsthand.

Antidepressant discontinuation syndrome - Wikipedia

It wasn’t too bad but it was noticeable. It took about 3-4 weeks before I felt ‘normal’ again. I believe my dedication to the gym, weight lifting, healthy eating, and lots of good supplements helped control the effects of the brain zaps.

Results. Premature ejaculation is back again. Anxiety/depression has not returned.

Sidenote. I see some Viagra shippers now have a combination of Viagra and Dapoxetine which is a proven premature ejaculation control substance. It’s mentioned several times here in Thunders. FDA testing is in Phase 3 and who knows when the FDA honchos will use up all their free samples before they approve it! I see some online sites that sell it but not sure of locations and strengths. I may have to give it a try. I really don’t want to get back into the SSRI arena.

OK, back to the original post and thread here by kfarrelldba . I want to address several posts regarding the appeared effects seen on friends, girlfriends, etc. That are on some form of prescribed antidepressant, antianxiety medication. I too have seen this.

Examples 1 & 2
I have been with two women in the past year. Both have been long term, 2 plus years, users of Zoloft and/or Paxil. I first noticed an unusual behavior with woman #1 before I found out she was on antidepressants. She had a continuous habit of licking her lips. The tip of her tongue would protrude from her lips regularly, ever so slightly, almost as a nervous tick. Of course once you start noticing it you see it all the time! I said nothing but did some online research which indicated that this is called a tardive dyskenesia . Which is associated with long term usage of antidepressants.

Tardive dyskinesia - Wikipedia

I then asked her if she was on some form of antidepressants? Yes, Zoloft.

I have since seen the exact same effect (flicking tongue) from another female friend who again has been involved with Zoloft for many years. Woman 1 seems to have no difficulties in daily life. Woman 2 is still dealing with depressive mood swings, irritability, memory difficulties, etc.

Next up. Girlfriend the freak
I have been on again and off again with the freak for 2 years. She is a definite freak in the sheets and a lady on the streets. No one knows how crazy she gets except me.

But… there was a darker side to her that I did not see at first. After being with her for about 6 months of happy sexual bliss I started noticing things I at first missed. She had a tendency to get into some deep depressive moments every now and then. She had been divorced from her husband for about 4 years. She had children that were hard to handle and thus at some point before I showed up she was proscribed Lexapro.

Half way thru our 6 month good time her physician changed her prescription to Clomazapam

Clonazepam - Wikipedia

She was having difficulties sleeping, had restless legs at night, etc. It seemed almost overnight she started acting differently. Within 2 months she drifted away, cheated on me and we broke up. I was pretty shocked actually because we were so good together. Several times I actually sat her down and tried to have a deep heart to heart talk with her. It was like talking to a mannequin!! It was like she wasn’t even there, staring blankly at me with no emotions. Absolutely not the same woman I had feelings for. On two separate occasions we’ve gotten back together for a couple months only for her to make an unexpected break from our relationship, go into a deep depressive spell for weeks and drift away again. I am positively convinced it’s the Clomazapam. My goal now is to get her off of them in some way shape or form. Whether we get back together or not is moot.

There’s no doubt in my mind these drugs ‘CAN’ be very dangerous to some people. I am no doctor but I have seen and experienced the results.

Some are good, some are bad. Use at your own risk.

Here’s what it was with me.

1. NUMBER 1 MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. PROPER SLEEP
2. Balanced diet with plenty of small meals with protein throughout the day.
3. Plenty of raw vegetables, in between the protein. Blender shakes with spinach, apples, carrots, celery 2-3 blender fulls per day.
4. Snacks = raw nuts.
5. Potato 2 hours prior to bed. Complex carb before bed will do wonders for sleep and serotonin production.
6. Melatonin and tryptophan before bed.
7. Eggs for breakfast. No exceptions. Eggs are the single best thing on earth. Packed full of NATURAL vitamins, protein, minerals and man hasn’t figured out how to screw them up yet.
8. Cardio - 20 minutes per day, every day.
9. Sugar? Cut it out completely. It causes havoc with the brain and is hits the same receptors as opiates. Sugar is highly addictive. The ups and downs from sugar will screw with your metabolism, your brain chemistry. You’ll be not producing optimum levels of dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, gaba, etc…
Substitute white (PROCESSED SHIT) sugar for Agave nectar or xylitol (birch sugar). Both of which blow white crap sugar away.
10. Caffine? That’s just asking for anxiety.
11. Any opiate based substance will eventually cause you a spiral into doom. In Bohms case, it’s perplexing. I do see how they do help. The make you feel great. I was on them for years. However when your on them the brain goes on vacation as far as producing the above natural feel good chemicals. So when you stop the drugs, the brain doesn’t just pick up where it left off. This is why the IDIOTS (doctors) prescribs SSRI’s for opiate addicts. Now if they educated themselves on amino acids and proteins and diet, they often could stay off the SSRI’s when coming off opiates. Tyrosine, Tryptophan, 5-htp, fish oil, GABA and proper diet enabled me to not go on zoloft after I got off the opiates. But everyone is different. I did a lot of research and a lot of work on this. It works.

Don’t go the opiate route if you can stay away from them. They burn you out. They render your immune system useless and screw up every aspect of your well being, trust me. I also have a lifetime prescription for clonazepam. The stuff is useless. I have no libido when I’m on the stuff.

OH OH OH, and the most important thing I’ve ever done to combat the anxiety and allowed me to replace my morning clonazepam was my discovery of this wonderful thing called MACA. However don’t get the vitamin shop brand or any other brand that comes in a pill. It WILL NOT WORK. You must get RAW POWDER from a reputable source. I take 1-2 tsp every morning and have been off the clonazepam for months. MACA saved my life.

Kevin

I’m working on getting a meet with my ex-freak as soon as I can. For her, not me. Thanks for your insights Kevin!! Appreciated!

For me, the combo of clonazepam (a benzodiazepine) + narcotics was close to a 100% anxiety stopper. The clonazepam alone was ~70% effective for anxiety. But, it does make you a bit slower cognitively and makes you feel sleepy and a bit tired. I believe the sedative properties of benzodiazepines do add to its anti-anxiety effects. The narcotic alone was relatively useless for anxiety, for me.

That’s a good question and I’m not sure. I managed to use these drugs for ~8 years until tolerance became too high (excessively high doses). Minimizing tolerance, withdrawal and side-effects is the fine-tuning part. Here’s what worked for me:

1. The less I used them the better they worked (use >4 times/week increases tolerance)
2. Tolerance to narcotics> tolerance to benzodiazepines (that’s why narcotics have a greater abuse potential than benzodiazepines and are in a different category of controlled drugs)
3. A drug holiday of a month/year will help to prolong efficacy of the medication.

Zopiclone has a bit weaker tolerance than benzodiazepines in my opinion. I honestly do not think you can take narcotics forever. Tolerance will eventually hit you. Trust me on this one. I started with one Tylenol 3 and within 4 years of their use I was chewing 240 mg oxycontin/10 hour shift. That’s a huge difference in dosage. Just check any opioid equivalency chart:

With the clonazepam I went from 1 mg to 5 mg within 8 years (much slower tolerance). If you’re careful, you may be able to use them for the rest of your life but even that’s difficult for most I would imagine. But living with severe, crippling anxiety isn’t much of a life either. By the way what type of anxiety have you been diagnosed with?

That’s strange. Lexapro and citalopram are almost identical chemically. Lexapro is just the active (S+) stereoisomer (enantiomer)of citalopram. 20 mg of celexa should be equivalent to 10 mg of lexapro.

I highly doubt it. More likely the SSRI caused dry mouth (anti-cholinergic side-effect). That will make her lick her lips/mouth. Tardive dyskinesia is a side-effect of anti-psychotics. Was she taking those?

Clonazepam can sometimes inhibit you kinda like alcohol but you aren’t as dumb as with alcohol, so that is a possibility. That’s why they are prescribed for anxiety. Clonazepam is also sometimes prescribed for "restless leg syndrome". By the way I’m currently on 10 mg on Escitalopram.

Social Anxiety Disorder.

I kind of hate the diagnosis, and hate the label. I feel like in certain situations, I am just very shy and self conscious. In other situations, and with “safe” people, I am outgoing and can even be a ham. But realistically, especially in the workplace where I often feel under intense scrutiny, the diagnosis does fit.

I went to a psychologist who specialized in Social Phobia (the other name for SAD) and he put me in group therapy, 2x per month. It was a perfect fit for me, because it is usually in a group environment where I feel most self-conscious. Out of 10 people, I felt like I was one of the most “normal”, kind of on the cusp of having this disorder versus just being an introvert. But I also feel like because everyone there knew I had this disorder, my anxiety was lessened, unlike what would be the case at work, where I try to hide my discomfort. (I stopped going to the group sessions soon into it because I didn’t think it helped me except when it was my turn to speak, which was 10% of the time.)

Anyway, I have often thought if there was some sort of drug combination that could work for me, I could be a high achiever, like it seemed like you were doing. And I don’t give a damn what the combination is — legal or not. It just has to work for me. We all have our coping mechanisms, whether they are TV, junk food, percocets, marijuana, a sense of humour, being a workaholic, etc. I feel like something chemical in my brain is a little amiss, and I just want to do what it takes to correct that “misfiring”. I have enough talents and natural abilities to really shine, I just need to get rid of the anxiety I feel that is much greater than most “normal” people experience.

What type of therapies, medications, etc. have you tried for your anxiety either than the twice/month group therapy?

A wonderful anxiety stopper is heroin. Only problem is that it does more harm then good, and if you eventually stop, your condition will be worse then before.

Best thing to do, if you can do it, is find a natural routine that works full time. I am still working on mine so I can’t say for certain that this and this worked for me.

Not a lot. I have mostly done a lot of reading on anxiety and depression. I was seeing an anxiety psychologist (who put me in the group therapy), but I didn’t stick with it because I didn’t feel like it was helping me enough. After three sessions, it was the same stuff over and over; no new revelations. He wanted me to write a journal and do a workbook rating my feelings throughout the day, and I just didn’t buy into it. It was like doing tax forms.

I have tried meditation and breathing exercises, but again, I never stick with it because it doesn’t seem to have much impact.

Working out is the one thing that I think has helped, and for the past couple years I have gone to the gym 4-5 times a week except when I am busy at work.

Drug-wise I tried a couple SSRis — I can’t even remember which ones. (I just did a search here and found a thread I wrote in 2006, so one was Celexa. Thread here.) I stopped both within a week because I didn’t like the side effects. I also had a prescription for clonezapam, but it made me too tired and gave me mind fog, so I stopped that too. I have never used any medicine for anxiety more than a week or two, because of side effects. SSRIs in particular are frightening to me because I have read about permanent negative side effects, and I do feel I am a perfect candidate for that to happen to (because of my paranoia and anxiety)!

Currently I take one medicine. Zopiclone to fall asleep.

So in my experiences so far, exercise and zopliclone have helped.