Penis Enlargement Skeptic?

Coming to this forum through some random link, you are presented with a very strange vision. You are probably used to penis enlargement spam, selling pills and oils and even devices to lengthen your member but these are, in the most part, scams. There are things that even people who have been involved in penis enlargement on a personal basis for a long time would mostly agree with: that penis enlargement pills, creams and oils do not work. Finding these things positively discussed on a site purporting to be about penis enlargement, is potentially a worrying sign.

As a skeptic, you should be looking deeper.

There is evidence for the efficacy of pumps conducted by Brian Richards in 1975. This evidence is suspect because it was not independently conducted and consisted of an extremely small group over a short period of time. Beyond this, the results could have easily been explained by variation in EQ (erection quality - which you will see discussed around this site). There have been studies of extenders but these seem equally flawed. It is fairly easy to take the work that has been done and find holes in it. As things stand right now, it’s safe to say that there is no decent scientific evidence for successful penis enlargement.

We have a local source of data. This is self reported (like Kinsey) and self selecting and contains incomplete and incompatible data. It cannot be used as incontrovertible proof that penis enlargement works.

This forum exists. It has discussed penis enlargement for over ten years. I’ve used this argument myself, even recently. It’s a lazy argument though and one that’s easy to see through if you note that there are plenty of forums discussing astrology as though that is true or various gods as if they exist. There are plenty of things in this world that are discussed as if they are true when insufficient evidence exists to prove it. This forum is not proof for penis enlargement. How could it be? There are various things you can see from looking around the forum, like there is no obvious means of support other than donations or that there are occasionally threads from people who have tried penis enlargement and failed. You can compare this to other sources of penis enlargement information on the Internet but this does not prove penis enlargement is true.

So as a skeptic what can you do?

If you have a grant for the scientific study of penis enlargement, the answer is probably obvious. Otherwise:

If you are a woman, sorry but there is no way that the anything here will help. You could carry on reading but you are reliant upon anecdotal evidence. OK, there’s a lot of it but you can’t grade the reliability easily. The evidence here is what’s considered reasonable in social science, not proper science.

If you are a man, you can try penis enlargement and see if it works for you. This itself is problematic. You will see a number of threads with people talking about early gains, which could potentially be mostly about EQ. Your member is at best hard to measure, therefore it can be hard to ascertain whether what you perceive to be gains are in fact gains. The information here is founded on multiple anecdotal accounts, so there is a high chance that at least some of it is wrong even if penis enlargement itself is valid. Whichever way you look at it, you will need to make substantial gains before you can answer that question.

The default position of a highly skeptical person should probably be to ignore penis enlargement until such a time as there is incontrovertible proof.

On a personal note, I’m kind of glad that I came across this place some time ago, when my facilities for critical thought were maybe less well developed or it snuck in through a blind spot. We should teach PE to kids - works for the church.

On another note, I decided to use the common US spelling of skeptic throughout rather than the common UK spelling of sceptic. I quite like it today.

Interesting post, though I’m not 100% sure what exactly it is you want the reader to take from it. It did motivate a couple of questions from me:

(a) What are the major flaws of extender studies as you see it?

(b) Isn’t better erection quality a great reason to do PE? In fact, this is probably the way to get funding for studies. Getting an enlargement study through an ‘institutional review panel’ when many Dr.’s think it is dangerous could be difficult, particularly when the benefits vs. harms are simply “a bigger cock” when the general scientific narrative is that penis size is not the greater part of sexual satisfaction. Instead, improving EQ and showing no harm would be a foundation for moving onto normal functioning, non ED populations and possibly demonstrating increased size as an ancillary but non-critical benefit.

And: “Your member is a best hard to measure, therefore it can be hard to ascertain whether what you perceive to be gains are in fact gains.” Yes, too much measurement error, slippage and alterations of technique, and of course EQ. I’m a bit frustrated by this right now! Life as a newbie I guess…

The extender studies have been pulled apart in other threads. Suffice it to say that there are no examples of these studies in peer reviewed journals apart from the Italian study linked above and that study had 16 members at completion. This is not credible evidence, simply an indication that a larger scale study should be done. I think the benefits v. harm issue is not a big one for a trial of this nature. The bigger issue is that there’s no obvious financial incentive to run one.

Better erection quality is not the point of penis enlargement and it’s not what people understand by penis enlargement, though as you mention it is in itself a worthy goal, certainly for older people, and it’s a pre-requisite for effectively attempting exercises like the Jelq and Horse 440.

Uhmm….although I do agree on most of your points, I find this thread a bit confusing. ‘Proof’ is not a scientific term, as far as I know. Nothing is ‘scientifically proven’, something is proven if there is enough evidence for it’s existence or not; a statement is true if, according to given premises and accepted rules of deduction, you can derive it, and so on. ‘Proof’ belongs to the reign of mathematics, phylosophy, law and, sometimes, rethoric; not ‘science’ as ‘factual sciences’. So, what is said here? That there isn’t any (or enough) trial(s) that has shown evidence that the penis of a grown human can be augmented in volume?

Does the lack of trials means that jelqing is unlikely to augment permanently the volume of your penis? Maybe, but it is a matter of what you accept as ‘enough evidence’ and how do you think it accords with the structure and behavior the tissues you penis is made of. Said otherwise, I’m not sure that a rational guy would say that if a scientific trial has not shown evidence that a given thing can happen, then it is always unlikely that it can happen.

There isn’t enough evidence or any extensive and conclusive research for PE to be accepted as legitimate and there probably won’t be for some time. It is an embarrassing subject for many and even shameful for some so its unlikely for any research to be funded or even conducted scientifically.

Memento is probably just tired of all of the threads insisting it is our job to convince them PE is possible and typically concluding all PE is a scam because they won’t accept anything short of celebrity endorsed video time lapses of dicks tripling in size as evidence.

Some people actually don’t want proof. They come here and try as hard as they can to convince themselves it isn’t possible and that we are all tiny dicked liars because they are either afraid of failure or are lazy and want it to remain beyond their control. Refusing to acknowledge others can have something like this makes some people feel better about themselves.

Its always easier for the lazy to justify their laziness by labeling those who work for what they have as fortunate.

Ops! Got it now. Me dumb.

Penis enlargement can work through enlarge your penis through penis enhancement pills.

Was skeptical. Did newbie routine for 90 days anyway. Gained both length and girth. Am no longer skeptical.

I’ve decided to stay out of this one.

(See signature)

As someone who hasn’t seen solid gains due to an early injury, I can say I am somewhat skeptical, but this mood varies. All it takes is a quick read on these forums to reassure myself that you can’t all be lying (lol)…but once I’m away from the computer the doubt creeps up on me again. One big part of me feels that many guys reporting gains are just young men, under 24 and possibly still growing naturally (more of an issue at PEgym, etc than it is here at Thunder’s) Hell, there probably are a substantial number of young ‘gainers’ who were just growing naturally, unknowing to themselves ….but then I read stories from 40+ year olds. Some of them have the best gains/stories out of anyone! That being said, it’s hard not being able to PE and prove it to yourself. Oh well…maybe next year. And if you guys are all lying I swear to god lol…

Too many pictures and well-written posts for it to all be bullshit. There are however a fair share of nightmare stories, injuries, etc. It’s a really hard thing to get a grasp of since everyone’s routine differs and so does everyone’s tolerance level, injury frequency, gain amounts, etc. Not to mention so many urologists flat out demonizing PE (in particular, the jelq as it pertains to long term penis tissue/circulatory/nerve health). Honestly I should have spent a whole year reading these forums before I ever let myself touch my dick…been here since June last year and only just now feel qualified to start planning a proper PE routine for myself. It’s so easy to rush into this and get hurt as a newbie, even with all the warnings, etc. I really do feel that the Linear Newbie Routine should be encouraged and pushed on newbies even moreso than the standard Newbie Routine, if only for safetys sake and getting-to-know-your-dick’s sake.

But I digress…I’m all over the place with this post. Personally, I’ve read enough to convince myself that at least some change is possible with safety, consistency and personalization of your routine (as well as shitloads of Thomas Edison style trial and error). I’ve also read enough to know that it’s a thin line (for some) between gaining and between permanent, unimaginable injuries if you rush into this with arrogance, impatience…hell, sometimes even if you do everything right. It’s not anything to be taken lightly, but the rewards seem to be attainable with dedication and some luck. It’s hard to take what people type on a forum as truth, but I’ve read too many articulate posts from different posters for it to all be a complete sham. Now, over at PEgym, I can’t say the same thing. Honestly I think at least 35% of their posts are complete BS/profit driven/trolls. It’s just so shady over there. Thank gawd for Thunders…

NOW EVERYONE POST PICS OF YOUR GAINS SO I CAN BELIEVE PE IS REAL FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS MUAHAHAHAHAAHA **dies of a candy siezure** **gets priaprism in dead state, penis grows** **proves that PE is real**

Did he just advocate teaching PE to the kids? Most kids are already cocky enough. There is no double blinded, randomized, placebo control study because it is too difficult and the financial incentive is close to zero. I am a pharmacist and I love to see some data. The extender study was old and had a lot of restrictions. I am doing PE just for my own ego. It is unlikely I will impress anyone.

Sorry I digressed. Good luck to y’all.

Patience and dedication are the primary keys to success in PE. These qualities don’t come exclusively with age, but they are typically not the strongest tools in a young man’s arsenal. :)

A placebo effect of increased penis size when somebody else is holding the ruler would be a ground-breaking discovery (assuming good measurement); talk about mind over matter! Of course, that’s a good reason to do a researcher-blind study. How can you double-blind when somebody needs to have their dick in a traction device for 6hrs a day a warmup/stretch/jelq for approx. 30 min 5 days a week? If you have procedures for mitigating measurement error, you probably don”t need blindness — and researcher blindness is the only reason you need randomization. Why? Because the counterfactual condition is perfectly known: your dick isn’t going to grow otherwise.

In fact, knowing the counterfactual condition very well is the reason why skepticism isn’t very helpful in this case. Your dick will not grow as you age, your ED will likely decline, and so on. PE may help with that — it might not, but you won’t know if you won’t try. When skepticism reinforces a tendency away from assessing verifiable hypotheses we end up with a systematically narrow and biased view of **name your favorite topic**. This is a great reason why starting off with the newbie jelqing routine is a smart way to go. It requires consistency more than time, and other than your favorite lube if you go wet, it’s free.

There is considerable research in the US and elsewhere that is funded under the auspices of “basic research” and “population health” and much of it comes from NSF and NIH. Unfortunately, those budgets are dwindling fast and much of the world appears to be on rails towards only patentable and monetizeable research.

Thanks for mentioning placebo. How can this relate to penis enlargement though? Apart from the measurement issues, which should become less of an issue as gains proceed. I’d suggest that the placebo in penis enlargement is more about doing stuff that doesn’t have any effect at all but when combined with stuff that does have effect we cannot separate out the good stuff from the bad stuff.

Is an indicator of weak understanding that we don’t get why certain people don’t gain from doing the same thing as those who purport to have gained. If it’s a simple mechanical process, then why is there massive variation in response?

Is there an element of fight club in that if the evidence is too good, everyone would want to do it?

(joshuaty2010, Pills don’t work. The best they will do is give an EQ increase, they aren’t a source of permanent gains. They may be a source of rat faeces but that’s another story.)

It’s probably pretty easy to have individual variation in response to simple mechanical processes (when talking specifically about a PE activity), or variation in response to the (simple? not to me!) biomechanical processes that PE instantiates as the result of natural genetic variation. Different proteins = different outcomes for a fixed PE routine. Different proteins may also be more/less effective in the presence of different environmental stressors (different PE routines and/or modalities such as manual stretching vs. weights). Individual variation is almost certainly a GxE issue meaning that individual variation results from the intersection of both propensity and routine, with some gene variants working better in some situations, but less so or even worse in others. In some senses, then, the biological process can’t be a simple mechanical process. In another sense, it’s the same possible simple biological process (or set of processes, rather) modulated to produce large variation based upon initial parameters. Nature often likes simple mechanisms that it can complicate with small differences in start values (“heck guys, the butterfly was just flapping it’s wings, I didn’t know it would cause a hurricane!”).

I get confused when talking about placebo’s here because we have themes of measurement error (ruler placement, EQ, possibility of biased measurement by researchers who aren’t binded to participant treatment/control membership), causal misattribution for multimodal routines, and so on. Placebos work well for subjective appraisals — i.e., decreased dysmorophia due to growing confidence resulting from doing a PE routine and increased understanding of actual known penis size variation.

I think this is a great and entertaining question: “Is there an element of fight club in that if the evidence is too good, everyone would want to do it?” I’ve been thinking that issue isn’t really skepticism when it comes to whether or not to do PE (we should all be skeptical, but it can also be pretty low cost if you choose to make it so). My silly thoughts have been kind of like:

1. do you like playing with your dick?
2. do you like routines and can you stick with them?
3. would you like to have a larger penis?
4. would you like better eq?

If you chose 1 and any two from 2-4, you might as well try the newbie routine, and Thunder’s can help. Otherwise, go jerk off and the rest of the internet can help with that if you choose to use it that way. It doesn’t really matter if you believe it will work or not so you can be as skeptical as you want because you’ll be doing #1 anyway.