Burden of proof

I have no problem with anyone’s claims. It’s when there’s a “braggadocios” tone in their replies that make others want them to “put up or shut up.” The constant reminders of their size, the remarks made to others with a tone of “I’m the biggest dick at the urinal,” that kind of crap.

There’s a big difference about being excited when something happens to you that makes you feel your PE efforts are paying off, and just downright bragging about a claimed size. I remember when people used to give Bib shit about his size, but Bib never once (to my knowledge) bragged or told stories of impressing anyone. That humility made others trust him. Maybe some on this board should be a little more humble, in light of the fact that there are guys on here that would be very happy with even the smallest of gains.

HJ

Ultimately, I agree after reading many of the responses that pictures are not necesarilly proof. I just think it could (if the pictures are decent) help lend an aire of credibility to those who post in a fashion that makes their credibility questionable. There are obviously individuals who don’t post pictures for personal reasons, but most people are never questioned. There are those, however, that collectively become the target of questioning because of their behavior. It will never be perfect, but it could help.

You raise a compelling point - one that I’ve often thought about. I’m not pointing any fingers, or implying that any particular individual is “lying” but you can’t escape the reality of that issue.

Add up all the members of Thunders, MOS and the other several forums (even though some guys belong to more than one), and there must be at least 20,000 guys active in the PE internet scene. Combine that with the “tens of thousands of men” the paysites claim to have helped and, gee, where the hell is all of the photographic proof???

I’m not talking about “big dick pics with a ruler,” I’m talking about legitimate before-and-after pics. These guys in all the forums love to yap & whine about why the medical community doesn’t subscribe to PE. Duh. And it’s not just because of “no monetary incentive.” (1) The vast majority of doctors are strongly opposed to phalloplasty anyway, and (2) doctors often encourage jogging, walking, exercise, diet, etc. - and don’t make a dime from it (if anything, the healthy lifestyle that those practices promote would lessen a doctor’s “business”). According to that line of thinking, doctors should encourage heavy smoking & drinking, high fat & salt intake, and discourage diet & exercise.

Sure, I know that gains can be made; I’ve made gains. But the question is, can you make significant gains? Two inches, three inches, four inches? I’m not claiming that it’s never been done, I just think that it’s EXTREMELY RARE - particularly with manual PE alone. I know nobody in these forums, and nobody knows me. I have no clue about the human being behind these nicknames or avatars. But I do know this: I've not seen - even ONCE - a photochronicle of gains more than 2 inches erect length. Let’s be honest, if you wanted to proclaim to the medical community that you stretched & squeezed your dick for 5 or 6 hours per week, for 2-3 years, to gain 1.75” EL, they’d probably laugh at you - even if they believed your results.

Whoop and howl all you’d like, the proof just ain’t there. Nada. Zip. I do believe that it’s possible to make gains from a dedicated hanging program (although, some men claim to have hung weights for a long time for only a half inch of length gain). Bib stated that he was hanging up to 6 hours per day - actual hang time - which means that he devoted about 12 hours of his day to making his dick longer. DLD was doing numerous sessions per day, logging many hours per week in his manual workouts.

But the guys who think they can jelq & stretch for 30 minutes, 4-5 days per week and go from 5 BPEL to 8 BPEL will be in for a rude awakening. Believe me, if I knew that 22 months after beginning PE I still wouldn’t be at 8” (close, but not there), I probably would’ve said, “Fuck that.”

You need to basically be obsessed with this shit to have any chance of “significant” gains; even then, it’s not guaranteed. There are genetic, dietary & health factors at play also. I know that during my early months, I tried hard to block out the lamentations of long-time PE vets who’d gained NOTHING - jack shit, no length, no girth. Unfortunately, those guys exist - in large numbers.

Stretching the stubborn ligaments and the dense tunica of the penis requires a monumental committment. Sure, we can get a quick inch or so beginner’s gains, but then it grinds to a halt. Where’s the other 1-2 inches?

Everyone is free to disagree with me. But again, I would say, Show me even ONE photospread that charts EL gains of > 2 inches.. Surely, with so many thousands of guys making “great gains,” there must be dozens of such photo journals.

- w a d

Wad — extremely well said, as always.

I want to add here something I posted in another thread recently, with the most important part bolded:

1. “No matter how good the picture, there will still be heckling from the skeptics.”

This is just untrue. Go through the picture archives. The legitimacy of rulered pics is rarely challenged.

2. “Why lie at an anonymous forum such as Thunder’s Place — what’s to be gained?”

Often, in the same breath that someone says something like this, he pleas for posters to be more supportive of their PE comrades. Wait a second: if the social emotions — pride, embarrassment, anger, etc. — somehow cease to function in online forums, then what good is to come from complimenting our PE buddies? The answer, of course, is that we *do* continue to care about what others think of us in “anonymous” domains, however irrational it may be. A dude *does* have something to gain at Thunder’s by proclaiming himself, honestly or dishonestly, to have The Monster Cock, or to have gone from The Acorn to The Above-Average. Others will look to him (rightly or wrongly) as a PE guru and he will be praised to no end. And besides, even disregarding social factors, it’s clear that many guys exaggerate their penis size to themselves: anonymous penis-size surveys consistently yield larger size estimates than surveys done by physicians, despite the fact that smaller guys probably hesitate to participate in the latter type of survey.

There’s value in skepticism: if all posters went around exaggerating their sizes, each individual, aware of his own *true* size but not of the other posters’, would end up underestimating how he compares to the general male population. And the last thing we need here is more anxiety about the relative sizes of our pricks.

You tell it like it is Zilla! From what I’ve seen that I can remember the two best progress pics sets belong to lil2big from here at thunder’s and stillwantmore from mos… I don’t remember seeing any 3” plus gains documented either… I know I gave it hell for over two years and am still roughly where at started…

RWG

Wad,

Excellent, as always.

I think that the problem is that many guys simply do not believe that they will gain 2 inches +. I know I didn’t believe it, but I did hope it was true and that is why I have persisted. I have gained almost 2 inches (1.97 to be exact about 1.75 from manual exercises), but as you say I have no photographic proof of any kind except that I can (obviously) prove my current size and could therefore, prove future gains.

Para -Gooma is right, there is nothing stopping someone coming here already hung and within a few months professing huge gains by posting a current pic. Hell I could post my pic tomorrow and be accused of just that and I would have no way of proving otherwise.

It is indeed an interesting dilemma and it is precisely the reason that I actively encourage any new(ish) guy here to take a measured picture as soon as possible so that hopefully sometime in the future, someone may be able to provide you with the evidence you are seeking.

Andrew

Your right when I found the first PEFORUM I truly thought that the guys on it were insane, I remember reading BIBS post and thinking this retard hangs weight from his dick he must be the biggest asshole in the world. But than after reading more and more and making brilliant posts like this classic “Does this shit really work?” and “How do you jelq?” I figured nothing ventured nothing gained and started a routine and made some fast easy gains and was hooked but I never thought to take a picture with a ruler because I really still thought at that time it was bullshit.

Great post Wad!

I have gained 1.075” in a year and one month and find the last few months have been the slowest for gains… but I am determined to continue… because i am so close to 7”.

I think i can eek out another .25 over six to ten months and feel that would be a nice size to end up with.

I am very pleased with my 1” gain. It makes me feel sexy as hell to sink nearly 7” into wifey.

Peace.

Might part of the problem be from the way we got into PE?

You don’t wake up one day and say “I’m gonna stop by Home Depot today and get a bigger dick”. Instead you kinda sidle into this…one drink, er, one day at a time until suddenly *BLAM* you’re addicted and by then you got the package you had on day one. Or maybe you put off “til tomorrow” grabbing the camera for documentation- I did this when I started leaning out my BF% but man I’m glad I finally shot something. I wish I’d taken a before pic a year ago for me and Mr.Happy to put in his PE scrapbook.

Very interesting thread.

Here’s my 2 cents worth.

I think measuring by percentage of growth is more accurate, as to the success of an individual. Someone coming in at 4.5 NBPEL and gaining 1.5, is more growth than someone coming in at 6 NBPEL gaining the same. 33% -vs- 25%.

There’s going to be a limit for everyone, only the PE Gods know what each individual persons will be. It could be .000000001 to “something much bigger”.

I know what you mean about “before and after” growth pictures proof, i.e. has anyone really gotten ridiculous growth. I posted a picture, in Thunders, I had taken from 3 years ago (for an email pen pal). Looking at the picture now, I could be questioned for accuracy, because you can’t really see 100% of the starting point of the tape measure. I wouldn’t be questioned now because I have nothing to be braggadocios about.

This is a large site, there might be some people that are telling “Tall” tales, so that they will be the “Big” man on Campus or whatever. As far as I’m concerned, I believe all of them, until something tells me otherwise, it’s only words written to an electronic bulletin board. If they fool me, I haven’t lost anything. Usually time will weed out the fibbers, they’ll get bored of this and go somewhere else.

Personally, I like to err on the low side (measure to the lower side), so when I do measure again, it will be conservative. I also think our “guys” have good days and bad days, and you could kegel him up a little more or just plain be more aroused, and be a tad larger, on a given day (regardless of pe exercises).

SM

I agree that good ruler pics are not flamed here. Stillwantmore and l’il big posted excellent pics, and so does Piet. But to take this a step further, you don’t even need a ruler to display significant gains. If you started at 6”, figure your shaft was probably just under 5. If you’ve gained 2½ inches, you’re actual glans probably gained ½” or less. Your shaft area probably grew at least 2 inches – or more than 40% of its original length. Just the symmetry difference alone would make such a gain obvious. Especially if your hand is present in the photo, or some reference to a mole or blemish, or your pubes, etc.

Also, the question, “Why would anybody lie about their size?” is clearly a rhetorical question. As has been stated, men even lie in anonymous surveys. It’s no stretch at all to think they could lie on internet forums. The reasons could be as varied as there are people.

Furthermore, the guy who came here big already is a possibility I’ve thought of as well. Guys who are naturally 8+ posting current pics and claiming to have been only 5” or so when they started. It’s all a sordid, fucked up club we circulate in. We’re always encouraged to take starting measurements – BPEL, EG, FL, FSL, etc. Why is it a stretch to take a pic or two?

I remember at CC forums WyldeBill had PE’d for a long time, but gained absolutely nothing. At Thunder’s, Mike2002 had PE’d for a long time but his starting & current stats were exactly the same. RWG and teoman have only gained about ¼” length (last I’d heard), and neneago believes that he’s gained no length – apart from an increase in his NBP after losing a bit of bodyweight. I think that soflsun was also struggling with unsatisfactory gains as well – if I remember correctly. And there have been quite a few other posts, by brief visitors, bemoaning their very slight gains – or none at all.

When I consider my own EL gains – 1.6” over 22 months – I have to factor in the 3/8TH size loss I’d had since my youth. Like most guys, I measured my weinie from about age 13 to 20 or so, then not at all until I was 37 – when I noticed the size loss. So, the bitter truth is more like 1.22” in 22 months (if you factor in the lost size I’d regained). The situation is even more depressing when you deduct my newbie gains – and factor in the quick 0.22” EL I’ve recently gained after a long layoff. In January of 2003 I was 7” BPEL. Just this past April I was 7½” – so we’re talking about a freakin’ ½” EL gain during a 15-month period. Luckily, followed by almost ¼” in 3 weeks, coming off a lengthy break.

I think my gains are far more indicative of what most men could expect from PE. Some guys are just gifted as quick or large gainers; others are completely obsessed with PE and will spare no efforts or hours to gain whatever size possible - those sad souls probably have the best chances to make significant gains; although, not guaranteed of course.

Show me the photos! :)
EL gains of 2” plus, over a clear progression of photos – preferably with a ruler – without any hit of photoshopping, and I’ll be extremely grateful to you.

Otherwise, the vast majority here cannot KNOW that such gains are possible or - to be honest - have even been achieved. I don’t think that is an antisocial or overly cynical attitude. To anybody who has studied Logic or Rhetoric, they would quickly follow my point. Claims are classified as problematic or unproblematic; this is not being an “asshole,” but a realist. Claims are also qualified, modified, and rated according to probability. None of us - certainly myself included - is above this standard.

- w a d