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btw, that concept of bi-directional pressure could explain why horse440s have been effective for so many guys. You’d be hitting both “walls” of each compartment at the same time, creating extreme pressure buildups (and significantly greater risks, also).
I don’t see the BF as the major factor by any means. In muscle growth it’s a major issue since it encapsulates the muscle and it’s tough to stretch, but compared to PE gains muscle is a walk in the park. Btw, some BB’ers inject PGE-1 (aka caverject) into muscle bellies to facilitate stretching of the muscle fascia. Results come in days/weeks there.
I’d say the BF resistance is not inconsiderable, but I’m pretty sure it’ll come along for the ride if the Tunica is willing.
But I see that I’ve carelessly confused the tunica with Buck’s Fascia. Clearly the BF is the culprit in gains toughness. I think the tunica is not nearly as resistant; although, not nearly as pliable as the CC/CS of course.
No, the tunica is the stronger. It’s also thicker. The fascia extends beyond the penis into the pelvis and serves as a container for the “penile contents” if you will. As MM said, the bursting strength of the tunica is 1200-1500 mm Hg (29 psi) which is much greater than that of the relatively thin fascia. Besides, at the level of the tunica albuginea, Buck’s fascia is adhered to the tunica and does not move, so you have to deal with both at the same time during PE exercises.
Also, for the first time ever, I’ve seen a far more complete diagram of the CC - which shows that it is ribbed within by the tunica. Very interesting. In all other diagrams, the tunica appeared to encase only the perimeter (or outside) of the CC. But in this diagram, the CC is definitely “sectioned” by the tunica, like a number of small compartments. I had never seen the penis represented that way.
You are mistaking the trabecular network within the CC with the tunica. The tunica surrounds the corpora cavernosa and does not invade them. It’s difficult to show the trabeculae in drawings like this because they are small, web-like structures within the CC that create the sinusoids that hold the blood during an erection. The trabeculae are made of endothelial tissue over elastin, fibrous tissue and smooth muscle strands. The contraction of these smooth muscle fibers in the trabeculae is the mechanism that “shrinks” the penis after ejaculation and empties the sinusoids of blood (most of it) until the next erection.
….at the level of the tunica albuginea, Buck’s fascia is adhered to the tunica and does not move, so you have to deal with both at the same time during PE exercises.
I’ll bet the two coverings combined for far greater strength. So if the tunica alone has rated up to 29 psi before rupturing, the resistance may be closer to 40 when tightly supported by Buck’s fascia - although, that would depend upon how much weaker the BF is than the tunica. But, in theory, it could offer some additional support if the conditions were right.
You are mistaking the trabecular network within the CC with the tunica. The tunica surrounds the corpora cavernosa and does not invade them. It’s difficult to show the trabeculae in drawings like this because they are small, web-like structures within the CC that create the sinusoids that hold the blood during an erection. The trabeculae are made of endothelial tissue over elastin, fibrous tissue and smooth muscle strands. The contraction of these smooth muscle fibers in the trabeculae is the mechanism that “shrinks” the penis after ejaculation and empties the sinusoids of blood (most of it) until the next erection.
Oh. In that “ribbed.jpg” I uploaded, it looks that way. And they certainly didn’t draw any lines to the trabeculae, or indicate that they were tissues other than tunica. I don’t doubt that you’ve read further about this, I’m just saying that the photo was misleading, or at least incomplete.
Wad,
Was “ribbed.jpg” from the MRI site? If so, I missed it. I think there’s a difference between the “ribs” and the trabeculae. The trabeculae are the smaller sinusoids. As WestLA said, they are the regions that fill with blood during an erection.
The ribs appear to be something altogether different. They appear to be much larger structures that divide the length of the CCs into separate chambers, each containing trabeculae. These ribs appear to be composed of tough material. I’m guessing they’re primarily collagen, just like the rest of the tunica.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen these. They’re also visible in some of the pics posted under “tunica” on the wiki. I’ve never given them much thought, however.
Clearly, if these structures are made of the same stuff as the tunica, they could present a significant limiting factor for girth gains. It might be a good time to reread this thread, which deals with intercavernosal “struts.”
Your pic raises many questions. For instance, does everybody have the same number of sections? Can PE cause new sections to be created? Does a section have a maximum size, beyond which functional problems may ensue? Perhaps more naively, are the sections sealed off from one another (probably not)?
Good catch Wad. Who says you’re just good for entertainment value.
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This raises a myriad of questions. The first to jump to mind is that maybe programs that advocate bi-directional jelqing may be onto something. Of course, on the down stroke, you’d have to be careful to fully kegel because you don’t want to enhance your penile drainage system (and thus compromise erectile strength).
But if you look at this pic I’ve lifted, you’ll see that in forward-only jelqing, we’re applying pressure against the “lateral” tunica from only one side.
I think it probably doesn’t matter whether you jelq one way or both. The idea is that jelqing works by applying pressure to the CCs from within. The resulting pressure would impact the longitudinal and transverse surfaces within the CCs equally (pressure applies the same force per unit area in all directions).
I can’t say I really understand your comment about Kegeling during the jelqing motion. It seems to me that jelqing with a tight grip would tend to cut off venous drainage, so that Kegeling to keep the blood from flowing out wouldn’t be necessary.
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Thanks for the input guys.
So the tunica is our greatest limiting factor, which is made up of collagen? It’s been stated that heat can cause deformation of collagen if stress is applied during this heat. Is there anything else that effects collagen?
The CC is primarily a spongy material, that would stretch almost as much as we wanted if it weren’t encased by the tunica and deep fascia, is this correct?
The deep fascia is a thin layer, but still puts up some resistance to stretching, as it does for our muscles. Is the fascia as thick in the penis as it is covering our muscles? And is this essentially the same fascia?
Mo,
I got that pic off the link you posted. If you look very closely, those “ribs” or “dividers” definitely look like they’re part of the tunica - unless the illustrator made a mistake.
Admittedly, I don’t have exhaustive knowledge of penile anatomy, so I’m not going to argue trabeculae/tunica/sinusoids, etc. But I have good vision and I see what that illustration depicts.
Also, I disagree with your statement: “The idea is that jelqing works by applying pressure to the CCs from within. The resulting pressure would impact the longitudinal and transverse surfaces within the CCs equally (pressure applies the same force per unit area in all directions).”
Consider the mechanics of the jelq:
(1) The pressure is being applied externally, not internally; hence, where and how you happen to be gripping has a direct affect on the pattern and focus of the pressure relative to the length of your penis.
(2) During the jelq, the hand moves forward; only the penis directly under, and forward of, your grip is under pressure. In other words, this pocket of pressure is moving forward - it’s not stationary.
After a particularly intense jelq session, I get petichiae the worst at the tip of my glans - which can actually be aching. I think that suggests that pressure is moving forward, and not “equally….in all directions.” If this is true, then the moving pressure is affecting those chambers in one direction.
But in bi-directional jelqing, force is moving towards the glans and also towards the pubis; this cannot be the same as regular jelqing.
And while clamped, or especially while doing horse440s, the pressure is much more uniform, as you’ve mentioned. It’s also persistent.
Mo,
I got that pic off the link you posted. If you look very closely, those “ribs” or “dividers” definitely look like they’re part of the tunica - unless the illustrator made a mistake.
I agree with you. The trabeculae as well as these “ribs” appear to grow from the interior wall of the tunica and are probably composed of the same material.
I disagree with your statement: “The idea is that jelqing works by applying pressure to the CCs from within. The resulting pressure would impact the longitudinal and transverse surfaces within the CCs equally (pressure applies the same force per unit area in all directions).”
Consider the mechanics of the jelq:
(1) The pressure is being applied externally, not internally; hence, where and how you happen to be gripping has a direct affect on the pattern and focus of the pressure relative to the length of your penis.
(2) During the jelq, the hand moves forward; only the penis directly under, and forward of, your grip is under pressure. In other words, this pocket of pressure is moving forward - it’s not stationary.
After a particularly intense jelq session, I get petichiae the worst at the tip of my glans - which can actually be aching. I think that suggests that pressure is moving forward, and not “equally….in all directions.” If this is true, then the moving pressure is affecting those chambers in one direction.
But in bi-directional jelqing, force is moving towards the glans and also towards the pubis; this cannot be the same as regular jelqing.
And while clamped, or especially while doing horse440s, the pressure is much more uniform, as you’ve mentioned. It’s also persistent.
Jelqing applies a force externally; pressure is manifested internally. The CCs have holes in them which allow blood to flow freely along and between them. Thus, the pressure inside a the CCs is approximately constant, regardless of where you measure it. However, there is most likely a difference in pressure in front of versus behind the jelq grip, since the grip acts like a tournequet and impedes the outflow of blood. But all portions of the CCs forward of the grip are at about the same pressure.
Bidirectional jelqing, as you’ve described it, would allow greater pressures to be attained, since force is applied at two locations. Blood is trapped and further pressurized between the grip locations.
I’m not sure we’re not getting tangled up in the descriptions. Maybe we actually agree. My earlier point was that the pressure exerted on the different “walls” of each ribbed segment are the same longitudinally and transversely.
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The content at the attached link appears to be an updated version of something that’s been posted here before. This will answer a lot of questions.
Among other interesting things, it says the following pertaining to the present thread:
The substance of the corpora cavernosa (erectile tissue) consists of numerous sinusoids (lacunar spaces) among interwoven trabeculae of smooth muscles and supporting connective tissue. The corpora cavernosa sinusoids are widely communicative and larger in the center of the corpora, having a Swiss-cheese appearance. This fact enables the blood within the penis to transfer easily from the top to the bottom of the corpora. This also enable the penis to have a common intracavernosal pressure and a common penile rigidity. The sinusoids are smaller in the periphery and have a grape-like appearance. Peripheral sinusoids have a greater individual surface area than central sinusoids. These characteristics aid in the passive process of corporal veno-occlusion by sub-tunical venule compression against the tunica albuginea. All lacunar spaces are lined with endothelial cells, thought previously to have only a slippery surface preventing blood clotting. Recent research has revealed that endothelial cells have secretory function and synthesize factors involved in the regulation of corporal smooth muscle tone.
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This paper is only slightly off point, but has great anatomical references and a teriffic description of the erection process:
It’s helpful in this discussion because of the drawings and descriptions of the sinusoids. Still no information on the “ribs,” however.
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Here’s what the Wiki points to. You can clearly see the segments here. From this drawing, the ribs appear to be incomplete—they don’t always cross the entire width of the penis. Maybe these are, in fact, the trabeculae. Perhaps I was confusing the trabeculae with the sinusoids. I’m still not sure. It would be nice if one of these drawings actually labeled these structures.
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Here’s a description that distinguishes between the trabeculae (which it also refers to as "septa") and the sinusoids:
The corpora cavernosa have anastomosing sinusoids separated by septa (trabeculae) containing connective tissue and smooth muscle. Some of these sinuses are quite large and others smaller. They all fill with blood during erection. Larger ones compress the smaller ones. Note that they are lined by endothelium and that there are a number of coiled or helicine arteries in the trabeculae. The sinusoids all fill with blood from helicine arteries during erection. When filled with blood larger sinusoids compress the smaller ones and the veins of the tunica albuginea against the latter. There are also blood sinuses and trabeculae in the spongiosum, but the sinuses are more uniform and are smaller than those of the cavernosa. The albuginea of the spongiosum is thinner than that of the cavernous bodies and contains more elastic fibers and circularly arranged smooth muscle fibers. The cavernosa are firmer on erection than the spongiosum (why?).
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Hey,
Great site guys. I’m sorry I’m not the most scientific guy out there but can you guys answer a question for me? There’s also a second tunica albuginea that surrounds the corpus spongiosum and urethra, right?
When I first read through all the “illustrations of lig and tunica” threads, I thought I fully understand what the tunica is and where it was located. This was the diagram that was causing me all the confusion.
I just never understood why they never included the bottom tunica (CS and urethra one) diagram as well.
Mapson,
From the drawings I’ve seen, the CS has it’s own separate “tunica,” but that structure is much thinner and weaker than the tunica that surrounds the CCs.
When people discuss the “tunica” on this site, they’re almost always referring to the structure that surrounds and encases both CCs. Think of the tunica as the skin of the CCs.
The body contains numerous tunicae albuginea. For example, there’s a separate one that surrounds the testes.
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