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Dad is weak; Can T help?

I would like to get some natural supplements to increase my own T. Any suggestions>

Yeah. Get thoroughly tested before you start messing with your hormones. It’s really not to be done without a doctor’s supervision.

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If your dad gets that thorough prostate check, as you said, and there’s no evidence of cancer, then the plan to give TRT a try, if the endocrinologist and urologist agree it’s reasonable, seems sensible. All those studies are very interesting — thanks for the links. It will be interesting to see what the ultimate verdict on TRT is. Perhaps when we reach older age ourselves, medical science will have identified ideal hormonal manipulations to promote good health. I’m sure that TRT has unidentified risks, as with almost anything, but at your dad’s age, he’s probably willing to accept unknown risks to see if his quality of life might improve.

Has your dad’s doctor ever suggested a neurological workup, with regard to all those falls?

If free testosterone is what you’re after, then give nettle root extract a go(standardized to 70% divanal). It binds to shbg and will increase free test by around 50% in one month. Also try supplementing with pharma grade fish oil- that will lower shbg and thus increase free test.

Decemeber 2007: 5.8" BPEL x 4.9" MSEG

Current:-------->7.7" BPEL x 5.7" MSEG (7.2" NBPEL)

Current Goal:--->7.6" BPEL X 5.8" MSEG Do or do not, there is no "try".

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba
If your dad gets that thorough prostate check, as you said, and there’s no evidence of cancer, then the plan to give TRT a try, if the endocrinologist and urologist agree it’s reasonable, seems sensible. All those studies are very interesting — thanks for the links. It will be interesting to see what the ultimate verdict on TRT is. Perhaps when we reach older age ourselves, medical science will have identified ideal hormonal manipulations to promote good health. I’m sure that TRT has unidentified risks, as with almost anything, but at your dad’s age, he’s probably willing to accept unknown risks to see if his quality of life might improve.

Has your dad’s doctor ever suggested a neurological workup, with regard to all those falls?

There appear to be risks both ways. The natural breakdown of bodily systems with age and consequent hormonal imbalances predispose men to certain diseases, like prostate cancer, breast cancer, high blood pressure, heart disease, and diabetes.

In my father’s case, there are the additional risks of falling and being wheelchair-bound, with the consequent down-hill spiral associated with loss of fitness and mobility.

TRT may introduce new risks, but I question whether those risks are substantial as long as the therapy is successful at reestablishing the proper balance or hormones as found in a healthy, younger person.

Dad has neurological issues as well, neuropathy and myelopathy. He had surgery several years ago, which stopped the progression of those problems and even promised some improvement. He’s continued to decline, however, as he’s become progressively weaker. Also, his body type has changed. His legs have become really skinny and his trunk has become fat and round.

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Last edited by ModestoMan : 02-02-2010 at .

From today’s NYTimes: The Miracle of Vitamin D: Sound Science, or Hype? - The New York Times

February 1, 2010, 4:42 PM
The Miracle of Vitamin D: Sound Science, or Hype?

Imagine a treatment that could build bones, strengthen the immune system and lower the risks of illnesses like diabetes, heart and kidney disease, high blood pressure and cancer.

Some research suggests that such a wonder treatment already exists. It’s vitamin D, a nutrient that the body makes from sunlight and that is also found in fish and fortified milk.

Yet despite the health potential of vitamin D, as many as half of all adults and children are said to have less than optimum levels and as many as 10 percent of children are highly deficient, according to a 2008 report in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

As a result, doctors are increasingly testing their patients’ vitamin D levels and prescribing daily supplements to raise them. According to the lab company Quest Diagnostics, orders for vitamin D tests surged more than 50 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009, up from the same quarter a year earlier. And in 2008, consumers bought $235 million worth of vitamin D supplements, up from $40 million in 2001, according to Nutrition Business Journal.

But don’t start gobbling down vitamin D supplements just yet. The excitement about their health potential is still far ahead of the science.

Although numerous studies have been promising, there are scant data from randomized clinical trials. Little is known about what the ideal level of vitamin D really is, whether raising it can improve health, and what potential side effects are caused by high doses.

And since most of the data on vitamin D comes from observational research, it may be that high doses of the nutrient don’t really make people healthier, but that healthy people simply do the sorts of things that happen to raise vitamin D.

“Correlation does not necessarily mean a cause-and-effect relationship,” said Dr. JoAnn E. Manson, a Harvard professor who is chief of preventive medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston.

“People may have high vitamin D levels because they exercise a lot and are getting ultraviolet-light exposure from exercising outdoors,” Dr. Manson said. “Or they may have high vitamin D because they are health-conscious and take supplements. But they also have a healthy diet, don’t smoke and do a lot of the other things that keep you healthy.”

Dr. Manson is leading a major study over the next five years that should provide answers to these questions and more. The nationwide clinical trial is recruiting 20,000 older adults, including men 60 and older and women 65 and older, to study whether high doses of vitamin D and omega-3 fatty acids from fish-oil supplements will lower risk for heart disease and cancer. (Learn about taking part in the study at

Dr. Manson said fish-oil supplements were included in the study because they are another promising treatment that suffers from a dearth of clinical trial evidence. In addition, both vitamin D and fish oil are known to have an anti-inflammatory effect, but each works through a different pathway in the body, so there may be an added health benefit in combining them.

Study participants will be divided into four groups. One will take both vitamin D and fish oil pills. Two will take either a vitamin D or a fish-oil supplement and a placebo. The fourth will take two placebo pills.

Vitamin D is found throughout the body and acts as a signaling mechanism to turn cells on and off. Right now, the recommended dose from food and supplements is about 400 international units a day for most people, but most experts agree that is probably too low. The Institute of Medicine is reviewing guidelines for vitamin D and is expected to raise the recommended daily dose.

Study participants will take 2,000 I.U.’s of vitamin D3, believed to be the form most easily used by the body. The study will use one-gram supplements of omega-3 fish oil, about 5 to 10 times the average daily intake.

The vitamin D dose is far higher than what has been used in other studies. The well-known Women’s Health Initiative study, for instance, tracked women taking 400 units of vitamin D and 1,000 milligrams of calcium. The study found no overall benefit from the supplements, although women who consistently took their pills had a lower risk of hip fracture. Even so, many experts think 400 units is far too low for any additional health benefits.

Another study, of 1,200 women, looked at the effects of 1,500 milligrams of calcium and 1,000 units of vitamin D. Women who took both supplements showed a lower risk for breast cancer over the next four years, but the numbers of actual cases — seven breast cancers in the placebo group and four in the supplement group — were too small to draw meaningful conclusions.

Although consumers may be tempted to rush out and start taking 2,000 I.U.’s of vitamin D a day, doctors warn against it. Several recent studies of nutrients, including vitamins E and B, selenium and beta carotene, have proved disappointing — even suggesting that high doses do more harm than good, increasing risk for heart problems, diabetes and cancer, depending on the supplement.

Despite the promise of vitamin D in observational studies, research into other supplements shows it’s difficult to document a benefit in otherwise healthy people, and virtually impossible to predict potential harms, notes Dr. Eric A. Klein, chairman of the Glickman Urological and Kidney Institute at the Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Klein recently worked as national coordinator for Select, a study of vitamin E and selenium for prostate cancer. The study seemed promising, but in the end it showed no benefit from the supplements and a potentially higher risk for diabetes in selenium users.

“My sentiment is that the lesson we have learned form large trials with other vitamin supplements, including Select, is that there is no proven health or preventative benefit for dietary supplements in nutritionally replete populations, which accounts for most of the people who enter this sort of clinical trial,” Dr. Klein said. “It makes more sense to me to study dietary supplements or vitamins in populations who are deficient.”

People most at risk for vitamin D deficiency are older, have diabetes or kidney disease, stay indoors or have darker skin. African-American teenagers are at particularly high risk, possibly because in addition to their dark skin, they are less likely at that age to drink milk or play outside.

The scientific community continues to debate the optimum level of vitamin D. In general, people are considered to be deficient if they have blood levels below 15 or 20 nanograms per milliliter. But many doctors now believe vitamin D levels should be above 30. The ideal level isn’t known, nor is it known at what point a person is getting too much vitamin D, which can lead to kidney stones, calcification in blood vessels and other problems.

People’s vitamin D levels are influenced by whether they have light or dark skin, where they live, how much time they spend outdoors and by fish and milk consumption. To raise vitamin D without supplements, a person could increase sun exposure for 10 to 15 minutes a day. Eating more fish can help — a 3.5-ounce serving of wild fresh salmon has 600 to 1,000 I.U.’s of vitamin D — but it would take a quart of milk a day to get the recommended dose of vitamin D.

“What we know is that there are a lot of people who are vitamin D deficient based on estimates from national surveys,” said Dr. Michal L. Melamed, assistant professor of medicine at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx. “But we don’t know what happens when the curve shifts to the other end. There probably is a risk to having too much vitamin D in the system.”

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Originally Posted by man-of-10
twat you don’t want to be taking vitamin D2… it can give you problems with gene expression (receptors blocked etc.). Only supplement with the natural vitamin D3, seriously. And yeah about dosage, it is thought that the human body can use 4000-5000 IU of vitamin D each day. As far as I know the FDA is re-evaluating the ridiculously low current RDA for vitamin D.

Dude, I have ulcerative colitis and a host of other things that point to LOW D that was tested for. Yes I know D2 is less absorbed and costs way more, why else would it be a script and patented item? I “Overload” on both to get a handle on all this. Since I had a doc write me a script, I am using it. Between my height, weight, and various “D” deficient items, I’ll do fine where I am. Technically, I am already dead, so why sweat it?

“You see, I don’t want to do good things, I want to do great things.” ~Alexander Joseph Luthor

I know Lewd Ferrigno personally.

A new magnesium compound, magnesium-L-threonate (MgT) that could significantly increase magnesium in the brain via dietary supplementation.

Magnesium supplement helps boost brainpower — ScienceDaily

“You see, I don’t want to do good things, I want to do great things.” ~Alexander Joseph Luthor

I know Lewd Ferrigno personally.

From Twat’s link:

“We found that increased brain magnesium enhanced many different forms of learning and memory in both young and aged rats,” says Dr. Liu. A close examination of cellular changes associated with memory revealed an increase in the number of functional synapses, activation of key signaling molecules and an enhancement of short- and long-term synaptic processes that are crucial for learning and memory.

Where can I get this stuff?

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Guys, this may be premature, but I have a sense that this thread may be the first step towards an “Old Farts Forum” here at Thunder’s.

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For any readers who are thinking about TRT, here is a paper written by John Crisler, an osteopath and trailblazer in the TRT arena. The paper is directed to medical practitioners but makes very fine reading for the informed layperson interested in the subject.

All Things Male - Center for Men’s Health

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Hey Modesto Man!!

Sounds like a great idea to me!!! I will be 54 in July, never considered myself an “old fart” but….hell maybe I am!!!! The info that you and others have shared in this thread is just awesome!!! I have had a few Q & A’s with member RickM that have been very informative as well. I am going through every symptom there is connected to low Testosterone. I was even tested a year ago with results that proved it. My doctor took my results and swept my symptoms under the rug!!! I have an appointment in a week, he is either going to help me or I will find someone new that will!!

Will the younger members read an “old farts” forum?? Who knows, but one day they will be where I am, wouldn’t it be nice to have somewhere to go for this kind of info!!!

Hello Skyfine55,

Welcome aboard. I would really like to hear more about your situation. If you don’t mind sharing, what were your T levels, especially free T. Were you also tested for estrogen?

I talked with my dad this morning. He and my mom are both a little skeptical about my assertion that low T might be behind my dad’s fatigue and other symptoms. Basically, if they’re not hearing it from their doctor, they don’t believe it. Maybe it’s time for a new doctor!

At this point, I would consider it an honor to be called an “old fart.” Hell, it’s a badge of honor (as long as I can control my actual farts, anyway :) ).

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Testosterone supplementation may prevent Alzheimer’s: Testosterone Therapy May Prevent Alzheimer’s Disease — ScienceDaily

ScienceDaily (Dec. 20, 2006) — Researchers at the University of Southern California have discovered a direct link between loss of testosterone and the development of an Alzheimer's-like disease in mice. They also discovered that testosterone treatment slows progression of the disease.

The study, published in the December 20 issue of The Journal of Neuroscience, predicts that testosterone-based hormone therapy may be useful in the treatment and prevention of Alzheimer's disease in aging men.

“We've known that low testosterone is a risk factor for Alzheimer's disease but now we know why,” said Christian Pike, senior author and associate professor at the Leonard Davis School of Gerontology at USC. “The implication for humans is that testosterone therapy might one day be able to block the development of the disease.”

In order to investigate testosterone's role in the development of Alzheimer's disease, the team took away the ability of male mice to produce testosterone. Some mice were then given a form of testosterone while others were given none.
The mice with lowered testosterone showed increases in levels of the protein beta-amyloid, which has been widely implicated as playing a role in the development of Alzheimer's disease. They also showed signs of behavioral impairment.
The mice that were given testosterone showed reduced accumulation of beta-amyloid and less behavioral impairment.
“These results are exciting because they tell us that we are on to something that is worth pursuing,” said Pike. “The next step is to look at what the long term effects of testosterone therapy are in aging men.”

This study adds valuable new information to understanding the role of hormones in aging and disease. Recent evidence has suggested that testosterone may be useful in other neurological conditions. In a presentation at the Society of Neuroscience's annual meeting this fall, Chien-Ping Ko, professor of biological sciences at USC reported that testosterone therapy improved muscle coordination in mice suffering from a form of Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, Lou Gehrigs Disease.
Pike's co-authors on the Journal of Neuroscience study were Emily R. Rosario and Jenna Carroll of the USC Neuroscience Graduate Program and Salvatore Oddo and Frank M. LaFerla of the University of California, Irvine. The Alzheimer's Association and the National Institutes of Health provided funding.

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I’ve been reading Abraham Morgentaler’s book, “Testosterone for Life.” It turns out there is even more confusion surrounding T readings than I was aware of. The additional level of confusion derives from the fact that different lab techniques for measuring free T provide different ranges of results. The different techniques are:

- Analog free T
- Equilibrium dialysis
- Calculated free T

Analog free T is the most common technique, but it provides readings that are much lower than the other two, which are roughly equivalent to each other. All the techniques are equally valid and are well correlated with one another.

Using analog free T, a reading below 15 pg/ml is considered low. For the other two methods, a value below 50 pg/ml is considered low.

My dad’s test was done using “calculated free T,” which means his test result of 40.7 pg/ml was actually very low.

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