Question regarding PE speed of growth and recovery time

Thanks for the compliment Red! And it’s okay to have differences of opinion on even scientific matters. The fact that all of us are here in this forum goes to show that we don’t believe those doctors who say PE is a myth.:-)

I’m happy to hear that you know Tony Robbins is the real deal! :-)
Now, for the record, Anthony Robbins didn’t borrow NLP from Richard Bandler and the other founders of NLP. He studied directly UNDER Bandler and was his star pupil. It was the stuff he learned in NLP that allowed him to make the changes he has in his life and become who he is today. He is literally, the best student of NLP that was ever produced by Bandler and company and in some ways maybe even surpassed them. But you almost make it sound like it’s a negative thing! lol

That’s like saying that you know the guy who trained Michael Jordan and so you’re going to take Jordan’s skills with a grain of salt. Come on.. Give it up to the guy, he’s pretty amazing! ;-)

Oh and by the way, as I found out AFTER I discovered Static Contraction Training, Anthony Robbins is one of the biggest proponents and endorsers of it!
He not only preaches SCT to everyone and personally swears by it, but he even made it part of his latest program, “Get The Edge”, which comes with an instructional video on SCT video cassette where he’s being taught how to do it by Pete Sisco himself. You may have seen the infomercial for G.T.E. recently over the course of the last year or so.
So Anthony Robbins, a world renown expert on human development and personal growth, who founded a research institute strictly for the study of all processes and techniques to find the absolute most powerful, effective and briefest methods to achieve success in every area of life says that this is the best technology ever available to transform your body and backs it up by making it a core component of his self improvement programs. That’s nothing to sneeze at…

And again, the proof is in the pudding. Have you SEEN Tony Robbins lately?!! He used to be all tall and lanky in his infomercials. But take a look at him in the Shallow Hal movie. Especially when he’s standing in the elevator with Jack Black. He’s frightening!. Huge, barrel chest and broad shoulders. That’s not “muscle visualization”, micro tears or protein shakes my friend! :-D

Now, Dmitri makes my argument for me when he speaks about the rubber band effect. This is why I ask about whether or not the most effective method for elongation would be a stretching device that can be worn for long periods of time (while you sleep, etc) so as to maximize the amount of time your penis is distended, in effect - stretching your rubber band long enough for it to take the new shape.
He also seems to agree with me about micro-tears, which I feel are detrimental to both body building and PE. I think tearing apart muscle and body tissues only adds to recovery time, not growth. There’s no tearing involved with those African women with the neck bands. Only hypertrophy. And that’s we’re after here. Elongation and expansion from adaptation, not trauma.

Here’s the elephant in the room nobody is talking about - EVERYONE can’t be right. There has to be ONE true way it works.

I think that just like in bodybuilding world (where up until SCT, nobody knew the EXACT physiological process that triggered and governed muscle growth), everybody had their own workout theory, routines, regimens and voodoo body-logic they used to make progress.
Shock sets, staggered sets, “squeezing the muscle at the end of a contraction, etc. Just plain old silliness born of a lack of any real understanding of how the muscle growth process works.

In reality, all of them at one time or another managed to trigger growth (accidentally most of the time) and then occasionally, from exhaustion, frustration or just it being their “off season”, they put the weights down long enough to let their bodies heal and grow. So a lot of them experienced SOME amount of growth, but over a much longer period of time than if they had they been doing exactly ONLY what their body needed to stimulate and complete muscle growth. “3 steps forward, 2 steps back” kind of progress. The same thing is apparent as I read through the various members of this community. Not everything works for everyone. But we know that much of the body’s most important process do work basically the same for everyone. Eating, elimination, cellular growth, etc., are all basically the same for all humans. They may occur at different levels in different people, but the basic process is the same.

Clearly there has to be a specific, optimal, targeted way that the body can be induced to hypertrophy. Jelqing and manual stretching seems to me like the PE version of reps and sets. Throughout the process, you’ll ineffectively stimulate hypertrophy over time, and along the way, create tears and injuries that are counter productive.

So what is the baseline method that will produce results for everyone, even if the amount of progress is mitigated by physiology? It would seem to me that pure hypertrophy is about putting the body into a position or state that is abnormal for it and maintaining that pressure for such a long time that the body actually grows around it and adapts to it, similar to the way that ancient Africans used to make their children wears those head-elongating hats so that they would have what they considered a more pleasing (Alien Praetorian-like) head shape. Body modification.

Same thing with making the young girls wear rings around their necks so that as they grew, the body would grow a longer neck to accommodate the presence of the ring. They weren’t pulling on their necks all day long or hanging heavy weights from their heads and bending over to encourage growth! lol
They just encouraged the body to grow into the desired new shape by maintaining the “unnatural” positon for a long, long period of time. Long enough for the body to GROW to accommodate the shape. Pulling and tugging on it occasionally for a little while seems like a very ineffective method of coaxing the body into adapting to a new shape.

Especially since time is the key factor in growth. Wearing a stretching device as often as possible during the day, but especially while you sleep sounds like the best technique in my opinion as the body is forced to just deal with the fact that this is the new shape it needs to adapt to. Occasional tugs and temporary distention that the body has to endure during most stretching and jelqing sessions are neutralized by the body’s own elasticity and ability to recover.
Only excessive jelqing and stretching achieve even minor progress. The longer you do it for, the more hours a day you do it, the more progress you make.
So why not just cut out the middle man and wear a stretcher for length all throughout the day and night and a tourniquet for girth? (The girth thing requires constant re-engorgement of the penis with blood, so it will take some work.)

It seems that the Africans and Hindus that practice penis stretching via wrapping it around a stick and then twisting and pulling it or hanging weights off of it all day seem to be the ones who achieve the most length gains from their form of PE. And mind you, again in their case, its just about time spent in that unnatural state that stimulates the body to adapt to the new shape.

Again, I state my case - there has got to be an exact, basic, physiological process by which the body is induced to hypertrophy. All these techniques, methods and exercises can’t ALL be right. There can’t be that much variance in what works for one person versus what works for another when it comes to something so basic and foundational as physical hypertrophy.
There has to be one elemental process of hypertrophy that all of these bending and stretching techniques touch upon with varying degrees of effectiveness that when employed by all men will deliver the optimal conditions for hypertrophy, (mitigated of course by the individual persons unique physiology).

One universal truth that governs the hypertrophy process. Can we find the key that unlocks this secret instead of focusing on exercises we HOPE will produce results, but only work for some and not for others?

That is my challenge to the brotherhood of this forum.

Whoah! Why was this post moved to “Fitness and bodybuilding”?!!

If lengthening and thickening your penis is considered a form of body building, then yes, the move makes sense. But that was not the point of my posts!

It’s true that I (more than) touched upon the principles of a type of bodybuilding in as much how the body responds to stress and growth. This is because there is much overlap with bodybuilding theory and PE (most of it erroneous).

But ultimately, the ONLY purpose of my posts was to have an open, ongoing discussion about what the basis for PE is whether it was micro tears and healing or hypertrophy. And if it is indeed hypertrophy, what the exact process of that is. And once we know that, what the best method is to encourage said process.

To relegate this conversation and topic to “Bodybuilding” is to ignore the much broader ramifications of the question being asked and deny the opportunity for those who are knowledgeable in this particular area to weigh in. And worse, those newcomers who may benefit from this information BEFORE they being what could potentially be damaging, painful or ineffective, time wasting PE regimen won’t have the opportunity to hear the information and decide for themselves what makes the most sense.

Respectfully, I ask that you please move this back to the Newbies forum where it’s mean to be.

Hell, I thought it was a commercial for SCT and I moved it. I’ll put it back.

A couple of points. The African ladies with the rings on their neck and not growing anything, they are compressing their collar bones. And the Hindu dude with a stick and a rock is doing this stuff to his penis to make it non-functional. Not something I would suggest doing.

lol.. It wasn’t an infomercial for anything. It was just a guy who was totally floored by the results proselytising about the new found religion. :-)

Hmm.. Wasn’t aware of the collarbone compression aspect. Not good.

But I WAS aware of the Hindu dick-killer issue, which is why I’m not a fan of tissue necrosis inducing wringing and twisting of the penis. lol They actually do it to show their total lack of sex drive and physical mastery over the desires of the flesh. HARDLY the reason any of us are here.
“Hi! I want a non-functional 12 inch dick I can twist into balloon animals for kicks!” Not me…

That’s a big part of the reason why I’m on the hunt to figure out what’s at the core of penile hypertrophy. What’s the safest and most effective way to go about it in a scientifically sound way? A lot of the techniques I’ve seen offered here seem downright dangerous. The plumped bend? Yipes! V stretch? Eeeep!

So what is it in these exercises that creates the distention? That is the question we need to ask and answer.

How about doing a little reading first, maybe find out how much of this territory has been plowed before? Search feature, top right corner of every page.

Well, honestly, there’s only so much reading you can do on a daily basis and remain a productive, functional and connected member of society. Add to that the fact that I run a web design firm and you can se whay I don’t have that free time on my hands. :-p

That being said, I have been reading for months now (I’m a new poster, but an old lurker) and in all honesty, my post is as much an attempt to get people talking about these issues on a more continual basis, doubling as a question posed and a public townhouse meeting.

I’ve read a lot about micro-tearing and healing and wrapping and all these techniques and the complex reasoning behind these beliefs.
And again I keep coming back to the same place - SOME of these exercises have to more effective than others and there must be a reason why.

Until we finally stop and ask ourselves, once and for all, “What process is at the core of PE” and “What method is the best to use in regards to that process?”, we will continue to hear all these potentially dangerous and harmful gambits people are taking with their dicks. This is crazy. Either something works or it doesn’t. And there must be a reason why.

I haven’t seen a decisive, definitive discussion about these questions, nor a thorough investigation conducted and a clear consensus reached on what works and why. If such a thing had happened, then the next thing I’d be looking for is the testing and proving of these technique.

Once these things are established, then there would be an end to the numerous techniques and tortured reasonings and guess work that so many use to try and figure out how to make their shlong long.

I’ve done the reading, Thunder, and I’ve come up with no concrete answers or solutions.

Just more of the same “Twist your dick with a vice-grip and use this Faustian torture device you can construct for 99 cents using materials with unpronounceable polysyllabic names that you can buy from the same Acme supplies place that Wile E Coyote gets his stuff from, and your dick will grow like a weed!” claims or the “use your dick like a balloon animal while standing on one leg and you’ll gain 2 inches in the first month!” rubbish.

Everyone can’t be right. Every guess can’t be accurate.

There has to be a “String Theory” that unifies all these divergent views and theories of dick physics.

But in the meantime, I hear a lot of people talking about the moon being made out of cheese and the best way to build something up is by tearing it down.

I get your point morph. I think the discussion you speak of has been on going, but as you say, no conclusion has been reached, or rather, too many conclusions have been reached.

Funny, but has some truth in it.

How much and what kind of PE have you actually done while you have been lurking?

Morpheusx, your theory makes sense, but it has to be wrong. You say:

<Only excessive jelqing and stretching achieve even minor progress. The longer you do it for, the more hours a day you do it, the more progress you make.>

You said you’ve lurked for a while, and I’ve been here less time that you have, and we both know this is not even close to right. I’m sure you can find/think of hundreds of examples of people’s gains vs. routines where this theory doesn’t hold up.

On another note, I searched for info of SCT on kazaa and didnt come up with shit. If you have it could you share it? Because as of now it still feels to me like you work for these people and are trying to get us to buy it.

Careful here, we don’t want to promote theft of copyright material.

Could it be that muscles are similar to pe in that different people respond to different things?

Sct is garbage, it is not good for hypo-trophy only strength gains. As for pe I haven’t read every post. For me, I spend about 2/3 of the time on stretching and pe every other day. I am making gains, nothing to immense but steady and noticeable.

Thank you Necromancer for confirming what should be acknowledged as the truth about SCT and partial rep training.

Morpheusx, you have your Tony Robbins methodology down, youre trying to find the underlying common ground all successful pe techniques have, as Bandler did with modern psychology. If you continue your study you will find they are right here in the pages of this forum. Stretch the ligaments, stretch the tunica and increase blood flow through various jelqing styles. They each hit the common goal from a different angle.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about Tony Robbins I think, as I said,
he is more polished than the N.L.P founders. The only knock is he’s selling more than ideas, dont think for a moment hes not financially benefiting from a partner with the SCT guys, who are also in it for the buck. And Robbins has always been huge, although perhaps not overly muscular.

If you want to apply a Robbins technique to pe, use his “modeling” idea. That is, find someone very successful in pe and learn everything you can about their methodology,then mirror that and even use innovation you have learned on your own. Ive read Andrew69’s threads 100 times I think, and still havent read all of Bibs.

Red Rooster

Sheesh! What does a man have to do around here to be believed?! lol!

For the record, again, I work for myself and no one else. I’m not selling anybody’s products. I’m just really, really into self improvement in every area of my life.

When life wasn’t going where I wanted it to, I took action, got a Tony Robbins program and stated earning more and feeling better about myself and connecting with people in a way that I had never before.

When my relationships with women weren’t going the way I wanted them to, I did the research, Got Doc Love’s info and took massive action.

When my body wasn’t the way I wanted it, I found SCT, the best way to make physical progress and I took massive action and did it.

And when I decided that I wanted a little more packaging in my package, I did the research and found Thunder’s Place and took action.

All I do is look for what the best way to get results is and do the research and take action. Period.

Now, Red.. If you’ve done Personal Power II or any of Tony Robbins courses, you’ll hear him often say that if something he’s said doesn’t ring true or doesn’t make sense, don’t do it! Tony didn’t just go out and model who’s successful without first understanding WHY they are successful. What works for one person may not be the best way for you because there may be extenuating circumstances for why their method works for them that may not apply to you.
You need to understand the philosophy and reasons behind why they do what they do, THEN model them and take massive action if it makes sense. Example - a successful guy made a million dollars in one week by investing $150,000 for 3 days. What if you don’t have $150,000 handy? lol.

As for SCT, all I know is that it works for me and in a big way. I now have 18 inch arms (measured cold, more than a week after my last workout, without having touched a weight or squeezed my muscle to pump it up) and they show no sign of slowing down.

I don’t know what your experience has been with SCT, if you were doing the exercises properly or whether a beta workout is better for you or what. Dismiss my experience altogether. Makes no difference to me. But remember that for every person in here that SWEARS they have made gains for PE, there are skillions of others who tried it and had negative experiences, and just like you, adamantly say that STC is bullshit, doesn’t work, will make your dick shrink, empty your bank account, give you pimples and the coodies, etc.

Now, as for Necromancer, I wouldn’t be so quick claim him as one of my own if I were you, Red… His foundational knowledge of physiology and anatomy is suspect.. Veeeeery shaky. Let me briefly dissect his words:

“Sct is garbage, it is not good for hypo-trophy only strength gains.”

HypERtrophy is just the process of reshaping of body parts via continual pressure or positioning. It plays no part in muscle growth or strength increases in anyway.
So there is no such thing as a “hypertrophy strength gain”. How or where you came up with that concept is still a mystery to me. Unless of course, you’re under the old caveman bodybuilder impression that “squeezing your bicep at the peak of your contraction, forcing blood into ti” will actually make your muscles GROW bigger. Then I just can’t help you…

And if you’re calling SCT garbage, surely it’s the voice of experiecne speaking, right? Because I’m sure the case is that you’ve gone through the SCT eBook and done the exercises in the way it says to do them with the correct amount of recovery time and have not seen the desired results, correct?

Mind you, those who have not gone through the eBook miss alot of important things, such as the fact that if you’ve been working out prior to beginning the SCT workout regimen that you FIRST need to take off anywhere from 2 - 3 weeks to recover from the damage you’ve done to your body during your normal gym schedule. Only THEN should you begin the SCT program. If not, you’re wasting your time.

And Necro continues:
“As for pe I haven’t read every post. “

That’s a shocker! Boy, I didn’t see that one coming…

“For me, I spend about 2/3 of the time on stretching and pe every other day. I am making gains, nothing to immense but steady and noticeable”

My point wasn’t that jelqing and stretching doesn’t work AT ALL. My point is that if you’re jelqing and stretching, and don’t know EXACTLY what it IS about those exercises that create the growth, you have no way of validating whether or not thats’ the most effective exercise for you, or even whether or not you’re doing it wrong and need to adjust your methods to your particluar physique, etc.

But the reality is that if my theory is right, and penis growth is caused by hypertrophy, and hypertrophy is caused by continual, long term stretching for length and continuous engorgement with blood for girth, then the amount of TIME your penis spends in those distended states is the most important factor, as the body will have to GROW into that new shape as a result of having no choice but to adapt.

The question becomes, “If the longer I do it for, the more stretching I accomplish, then really, how effective is jelqing or manual stretching for 20-45 minutes (for the average PEer) in satisfying the above requirement of continual, long term tissue distention?”

Dmitri said:
“Morpheusx, your theory makes sense, but it has to be wrong. You say:

<Only excessive jelqing and stretching achieve even minor progress. The longer you do it for, the more hours a day you do it, the more progress you make.>

You said you’ve lurked for a while, and I’ve been here less time that you have, and we both know this is not even close to right. I’m sure you can find/think of hundreds of examples of people’s gains vs. routines where this theory doesn’t hold up.”

And Whata1 said:
“Could it be that muscles are similar to pe in that different people respond to different things?”

This kind of misunderstanding of physiology is exactly the kind of thing I’m trying to shatter and break through.

At first blush, to the uninformed, Dmitri’s argument seems to have the weight of the testimonials of those who have made real gains on his side. They’ve made gains, so their ways works and must surely be the right answer.

Whata1 also is under the same misconception when he compared the variety in exercises used by different bodybuilders to achive gains to the variety in exercises used by PEers to make gains in as much as that there are various ways to create growth.

Again, here is where the fundamental truth is exposed and the flaw in that theory revealed (why do I feel like The Architect in the Matrix?):

Many of the people that go to gyms and do sets and reps of different exercises in an attempt to make their muscles grow actually do trigger growth, but ineffectively and sub-optimally.
Its like making 3 right turns instead of one left. Technically, you will eventually be pointing in the right direction, but the process is longer and you may not be exactly where you expected when you get there.

These gym enthusiasts (anybody who can drag themselves to a place to grunt, strain and sweat for a few hours, 3-5 times a week, even when they are in pain and their bodies are screaming “No! Don’t do it!” isn’t going there for the physical benefits anymore -there for the Social Club aspect) all do different exercises with different theories about different exercises (pronate and supinate to build height on the muscle or thickness, blah, blah, blah) and most occasionally trigger muscular growth. And they also occasionally take enough time off to recover and do a little bit of growing and make SOME progress over a long period of time.

But if we humans are ALL capable of muscular growth, then clearly there is one universal law that governs that growth. One trigger that the body uses specifically to send the signal to grow more muscle to adapt to the demands being placed upon it.
And that trigger can’t possibly be all that different for everyone because we all share the same genetic code and are part of the same species. So the CORE of what makes lifting weights works has to be the same.

If you’re content to flail around trying out different exercises, and noticing that some of them seems to have some positive effect some of the time, but not being sure why you make gains some of the time and not at other times, basically being totally in the dark about what causes the growth, then go on right ahead and take 3 years to develop the physique you could develop in 8 months.

Likewise, all these different exercises in PE mirror the various ones done in weightlifting.
It’s all a bunch of people getting together and doing all these different ,often dangerous experimental exercises with their dicks (YIPES!!?) trying to find the ones that work for them. This kind of misunderstanding of what the ACTUAL underlying process behind penile extension and distention is precisely why you have some men that make large gains, some that make no gains, some that injure themselves and some that destroy the function of their penis altogether in exchange for some small cosmetic enhancement (looks nice in the shower, but doesn’t work in the bed).

If we all just stopped and established once and for all what the underlying physical process is behind the exercises that cause length and girth gains, we could then identify precisely what exercises are optimal in satisfying the requirements of that process.

In SCT, it’s muscular effort above and beyond the norm for your muscle, usually until failure and then requiring sufficient recovery and growth time, followed by a progressive overload program.

In hypertrophy is maintaining the body part in that distended shape or condition for as long as it takes for you body to reshape and GROW itself into the new mold you’ve cast for it.

So TIME is the biggest factor in penile growth. How do any of these exercise address the time factor? They don’t. How many hours a day the PEer spends dedicated to doing the exercises in question is the great equalizer that makes up for the brevity of the exercise.
Jelqing with even massive intensity does little or nothing for your penis. However jelqing for a long TIME adds to the overall time you spend distending your penis, which is the magic formula.
Same thing with stretching, hence you have to do a LOT of these exercises in order to approach addressing the main time factor of the equation.
So with LOTS and LOTS of time spent jelqing and stretching, you do see results, but no where near as much as if you were to do the two specific exercises which have been predetermined to most directly and powerfully induce penile hypertrophy.

The standard way is to do all these crazy exercises and hope that one of them will work.

Look, gentlemen, even a broken watch is right twice per day. Some gains or even decent gains by some is not proof. A universal axiom that works for EVERYONE is what’s required.

And Thunder, I’ve done jelqing, manual stretches, V stretches, ULI3s, Horse 440s, etc. But mostly jelqing and manual stretches. It LOOKED liek I had made some progress because of a swollen penis for a couple of days. Just like bodybuilders, I kept damaging and artificially pumping up my private parts and thought that that inflamed state was “progress”.

I’m leaning toward getting some kind of stretching contraption for length and just doing Horse 440s and ULIs for a LONG hold time for thickness, or getting some tourniquet like device to trap and squeeze outwards the blood during my thickness sessions.

Well, that’s it for now!

>HypERtrophy is just the process of reshaping of body parts via continual pressure or positioning. It plays no part in muscle growth or strength increases in anyway.<

Huh? Hypertrophy in the context of weight training is the growth of muscle cells, which causes muscles to get bigger. How can growth not play a part in growth?

My opinion on the matter:

SCT is complete bullshit.

Partial rep movements with heavy weight can be a good supplement for training through sticking points in power lifting, but apart from that they are worthless at best.

The SCT scheme works the CNS heavily and should result in some strength increases through neurological factors, but alone cannot be nearly as effective as a decent strength-oriented lifting program.

As for muscle growth, or hypertrophy as you think it isn’t called, the SCT nonsense as I understand it is completely absurd.

I’m not saying you didn’t gain some muscle using it. A few guys can practically look at weights and grow bigger. If you’ve gained muscle from this, you’ve gained in spite of the pathetic routine, not because of it. As you wrote above:

If muscle size is your thing you should try a routine geared to produce hypertrophy with a diet to match. You’ll likely be converted again. ;)

And you have read everything on this forum? Not likely. Based on your apparent ignorance of all the preceding discussion concerning factors that may influence gains, it seems you haven’t read much here at all. Those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

Earlier you demonstrated that you don’t even know what hypertrophy is. Questioning is good. We’d all like to know more about the physiology behind PE. Arrogantly proselytizing from a basis of obvious ignorance isn’t tolerated well here.

I have been training for 3 years. I have done sct and it’s garbage. I want to ask you a question to see how much of a newb you are. What degree does soreness have in relation to muscle growth?