What determines natural girth

Its from testosterone coverting to DHT and genetics. If it were based off of testosterone during puberty, then everyone would be big. Almost every male has sky high testosterone during puberty. :)

Actually 1 layer of skin makes a heck of a difference. Try measuring the inside of a toilet roll compared to the outside. The difference is staggering.

Being uncut, if I pull my foreskin back behind the glans when erect I get a falsely haigh girth reading.

I wasn’t refering to the thickness of the forskin itself which will definetly add some girth, I was refering to the fact that the vein system is DESTROYED and a cut cock does not achive the size it would have if left alone.

You mean the vein system to the foreskin. And of course if there’s no longer a foreskin there, the blood supply to it is irrelevant. I’ve never heard of the results from any size survey concluding that cut cocks achieve a smaller size than uncut ones. The body is quite remarkable in its healing abilities (a fact most people in todays age of going to the doctor for any minor ailment forget) and can simply reroute the blood vessels. And besides, for some people (I believe myself included), the myth that the head can grow larger after circumcision (due to not being trapped in a foreskin) is true! :p

The blood supply that runs through the foreskin is the same blood supply that feeds an erection. Look around on the net for a comparision. An uncut penis is much more veiny. That better blood supply lends itself to better nourishment of the penis, and greater engorgement.

There is aloa lot evidence that circumcision stunts the growth of a penis. Obviously not drastically, but it does.

NORM is scraping for ideas there to put people off circumcision. Not that thats a bad thing, and I don’t want to get into an argument about whether circ is wrong etc, but NORMs methods and reasoning often are because many cut guys can get sucked into believing their views and feeling very down with themselves for having had their foreskins stolen as infants, which is an evil way of rallying people to a cause!
The length and girth referred to there by NORM is simply that of the foreskin itself - "double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin". Double-wrapping being the girth, and overhang being the length. So there is slightly less girth, but only "soft" girth, i.e. that made up of more compressible (than the CC) skin.
As for the blood vessel bit, arteries are (and Westla said this too) deeper down than veins, even in the penis. The arteries supplying the foreskin would supply only the foreskin. Why would oxygen-rich blood travel through the foreskin and then to the glans? The glans and shaft are the more important structures (search for evolution of the shape of the penis on here and google) so it would make more sense to make sure the glans and shaft had first choice of blood (to feed the erection) so if anything did happen to the foreskin (cuts or tears permanently damagin the foreskin’s blood vessels) the glans would still get its supply unhindered. Perhaps the dorsal vein comes from the glans through the foreskin and then down the rest of the penis, but that is not as absolutely essential as the actual inwards flow of blood. Besides, you can see from many cut guys’ pics on here that their dorsal veins have rerouted themselves quite nicely.
So yes the loss of "vascularization interrupts normal blood flow" but that is why the body is able to reroute blood vessels and create new ones. If it couldn’t there would not be such a thing as body building because the extra muscle built would not get a good enough blood supply to survive. As it is, body builders often have not just more protruding veins, but more veins in total thoughout their muscles. That is also a great help in PE too. PE creates hundreds if not thousands more capilliaries throughout the penis and also increases vein (and possibly artery) size. Stretch it enough and its likely more veins/arteries will need to be formed to supply the larger volume of penis.

Here is a medical illustration showing (although it is hard to see) that the artery into the penis is within the actual shaft of the penis and going towards the glans. The foreskin supply most likely comes off of this main artery:
Blood Supply of the Penis : Medical Illustration

I’m not arguing your anatomy points. I don’t know enough to even attempt it. But are you saying that you honestly believe cutting these veins has no outcome what so ever on penile develepment?

And norm while an anti circ site, is more of a support/resource then a scare tactict orginisation.

I’m not claiming I know loads about anatomy or anything, just that I know arteries are deeper than veins and supply the oxygenated blood, so surely if they are still intact to supply the shaft and glans then there shouldn’t be any difference in penis growth whether cut or not. The only difference I could see is that the girth would be less due to less layers of skin. I think only the veins would be damaged, and they take the deoxygenated blood away, after respiration has taken placewithin the cells. I don’t know what would happen during the healing time, however; whether or not the damage to the dorsal vein would mean that more deoxygenated blood would remain at the site, thus lessening the amount of oxygen travelling to the penis cells in that area. But then surely if the arteries are still functional there would be enough oxygen and the deoxygenated blood would flow away another way. Its all too complicated, but I don’t really see any reason why therewould be a noticeable statistical difference in the sizes of cut to uncut guys penises.

And the norm thing… I’ve read of others saying they’ve had bad experiences with norm making them feel worthless just through not havinga foreskin. Of course that could be dismissed as pro-circ propaganda but awhile ago when I was interested in my own circumcision, i.e. possible reasons why, and how etc (I don’t like to discuss things like that with my mother as I guess a lot of other people also wouldn’t) I searched around for some info on it. And as wouldbe expected I came across norms site, and to be honest it did makeme feel pretty lousy. Then after reading up more, and on both sides of the circ argument, I felt that norm had actually told a few lies (whether they’re white lies or not isfor the individual to decide) and that made me feel angry, but not with the doctor or my parents as norm would have liked to have me believe, but with norm itself. I feel they just twist people’s emotions too much, and that sort of thing I don’t like.

Anyway, I’m happy with agreeing to disagree on this if you like! :p

No prob bro. My view on it is that more study needs being done before we can make any concrete statements, but coupled with colloquial evidence, and what I think just makes sense, circ has an effect on penis size. To what extent is still to be determined.

As for NORM, yeah I felt real crappy after reading the site, but I was also reading a million other sites as well. I think it was the initial stages of dealing with what I lost, and the information that is laid out on these sites that made me feel as I did, not the sites themselves. I haven’t run across any information on NORM alone that is not corroborated many times over.

And as PE has empowered me, foreskin restoration has as well.

Well at least they’re helping some people, I guess. I went the way of accepting what I lost and realising that it didn’t really matter for me because I had never known the feeling of the foreskin and that my penis feels complete as if its not missing anything without a foreskin. I almost started foreskin restoration, actually. I say almost, I did start it in fact. Just the old camera film canister method, but I didn’t keep it up because as I say I didn’t feel I needed a foreskin, so I didn’t feel it was worth it. However, I do use the “Yourskin Cone” to use what skin I do have to cover my glans from time to time to soften it up and make it more sensitive. Good luck with you restoration, trips!

Anyway, back to the topic of natural girthiness! I think its just genes, or perhaps jeans (the tightness thereof!). I think that my wearing tighty whities as a youngster restricted my ball growth, so maybe tight clothing also restricts penile growth. My girth was slightly under average before I started PE, although my glans girth was definitely over average, but now I’ve caught up. Even without PE, ever since I stopped wearing the tighties (early teens I guess) my penis felt a lot fuller. Probably because it had the chanceto swing and “collect” blood in it.