A New Track

Actually, that is all I have done for my first 4 weeks ever and I gained a little over .5 inches from 6.5 to 7. And a girth from 5. to 5.25. Though, I did some long sessions of 40 minutes to 90 minutes a night. I just recently began hanging in lieu of a lot of jelqing and pulling. I still jelq after hanging, but not as much, maybe 15 minutes. Though, I really think I gained a thicker and longer penis from jelqing and pulling. Though, once you start hanging, it becomes very addicting. Hanging, for me, increased my flaccid size from a tiny thumb size to to atleast double and made it thicker, while being flaccid.

I skimmed through it all after reading Wad’s initial Post.

I would like to say one thing:
All I do is Wet jelq, and Compressed jeql (Squeeze PC’s, and hold while doing a 3-5 second countdown jelq in sets)

Nothing fancy. I posted my routine earlier but let me break it down in layman’s terms:

Warm-up via masturbation without coming.
100 Kegels to break down erection
25 second PC hold
3-5 minute stretching (free pull, 30 second count, various directions)
500 Wet Jelqs (baby gel oil has the proper viscosity for a comfortable intense session)
3-5 minutes of more stretching (free pull, same as before)
50 kegels, 25 second PC hold
500 Wet Jeqls (this makes 1000 total, reapply a generous amount of lube)
3-5 minutes of more stretching (repeat)
50 kegels, 25 second PC hold
10 sets of 5-rep 5-second compressed jelq
Finish with a nice warm/cool alt shower, and possibly masturbation to climax.

I take no days off.

My biggest concern is that area tension could be a major factor in tunica buildup, this is where lube comes into place. The general friction applied to the epidermis causes friction between the dermis and the tunica, in turn this causes your body to suppress inflamation by ‘building-up’ the hot spots. My idea is that if I use enough lube, I can create an environment allowing for intense jelq sessions without the massive overload of friction.

All I know is after this session every night, my penis feels relaxed, looks huge, and has a nice tingle to it.

caj — how have your gains been with the program you use? How long do you spend daily?

Hey wad

I’d be interested in giving the experiment a go. just a few questions.

1. Do you have an exact routine in mind to start off?.
2. Are you thinking of increasing the amount of exercises during the different intensity phases?.
3. When the 13 week cycle is completed will you start the next cycle with the same amount of exercises you started with in the first cycle?.
4. How long of a break should I take before starting this experiment so I don’t get any gains mixed up from my current routine?.

Interesting post wad, I look forward to trying this out.
murph

1. Almost
2. Yes
3. No - slightly more
4. At least a few weeks

BTW, cold turkey from PE since Saturday (3 days now), and I must say my unit is looking good! I did a jerk session a few minutes ago and damn was he hard, thick, & long…….yalsa, yalsa, yalsa.
I think this layoff is going to be great news (as hobby already knows it to be).
Sorry for the delay in the workout, I was a little over-ambitious in believing I could post it last night. I will definitely get it online soon. In the meantime, any interested parties should use this time for complete rest - I know I am. :)
wad can actually “sniff” some new gains on the near horizon <sniff, sniff>

Damn, about 4½ days off & my unit is looking good – long, thick, very hard. I’ve taken no measurements (don’t see the need or advantage of doing so during this period). But this has me wondering even more. Would periodization work best, or simply an altered workout schedule? Perhaps doing minicycles – an intense week, a light week, an intense week, a moderate week, then a light week, etc.

Also, would I benefit from doing 3-days-on, 3-days-off???
I worked out for many years, then I really learned a lot by perusing translated old Soviet training manuals – made available to the West after the glasnost/perestroika thing during the 1980’s. In the former U.S.S.R. the “Doctor of Sport Science” held a very lofty, prestigious position. Special universities abounded where very bright people studied long & hard to advance Sport “for the glory of the Motherland,” etc., etc.
Nothing even close to that exists in the West. I learned so much studying the works of Profs. Zatsiorsky, Medvedyev, Roman, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, we in the PE community have virtually nothing to go on except anecdotal “evidence” offered anonymously online. Besides, the works of those masters dealt with striated muscle, and strength training (including the neurological aspects, CNS, as well as the endocrine system’s response to training, etc.).

None of that directly applies to working smooth muscle tissue, or the plastic deformation we seek. The few scattered studies in these fields often deals with those issues using cadavers or animals – or isolated tissues in a petri dish, or in some bizarre traction device, heated at specific temperatures, etc. This is what makes PE so confusing – we’re often just groping our way in the dark. It would really suck to think that I’ve wasted so much time & actually hurt my gains; in other words, maybe I would’ve already hit my goal by now – and with much less toil.

I gotta say, I would not be surprised!

OK, Im a newbie, and in reality, I DONT KNOW SQUAT ABOUT PE

What I do know is that ALL of my gains have been made using very short workouts of moderate intensity. I think I just had my longest session ever…about 15 minutes!
Normally its between 5 and 10 minutes!

I will going to keep on this track (I simply do not have anyway of getting any more “private” time between my wife and kids) and see what transpires

Wadzilla, these recent posts of yours have me seriously thinking about a 3 to 4 week layoff. My gains have been stuck in a rut for a while now. After gaining .75” x .3” (from 7” x 5.7” to 7.75” x 6”) in my first 4 months of PE, I find myself at the 8 month point at the exact same size that I was at month 4, despite torturing my unit with near-daily PE. A 4 month standstill despite the fact that I always PE 5, and often 6, days per week, devoting about an hour a day.

Squeezes, extreme ulis, manual stretching, and even a little pumping - my unit has taken some abuse. And while it’s gotten more vascular, and my erections are rock hard, it’s not getting any bigger.

On top of that, the red spots have gone from a “for a few hours after a workout” thing to a “pretty much all the time” thing. Maybe my unit needs a break, huh?

But, like you, I really don’t understand *just what the hell is happening* when we PE.

I am particularly perplexed as to how the recovery process fits into PE. This is not muscle tissue and overcompensation, here. I had THOUGHT that what we were trying to do with PE was cause microtears that then heal in the enlarged state. I had THOUGHT that it was a matter of getting to the collagen fibers before they fully healed (in the flaccid, smaller state).

But I’ve been thinking about that, and I’m starting to think that the microtear-healing theory of PE doesn’t make any sense.

Bib once posted something about healing in the extended or stretched state, because once collagen is torn, when it heals, if the crenulations in the collagen are overlapping (i.e., the collagen is not healing in the stretched state), it will actually heal at the same size or even SMALLER than before (though stronger, so as to resist tearing again in the future). So you end up with a unit that is the same size (or even smaller), but stronger.

This was the rationale behind using an ADS after hanging - to heal in the stretched state, rather than the flaccid state.

Now that’s all well and good and plenty of people have reported gains from ADS. But consider:

If the above theory in favor of the ADS is true - then it should be *impossible* to make gains in PE WITHOUT an ADS! EVERYONE who PE’s without an ADS will be making their units stronger and smaller!

And yet we KNOW that others have gained without an ADS, healing in the smaller, non stretched flaccid state. I have (once upon a time :( ). You have.

Not only that - but if the above holds true, only length gains would be possible with PE. Girth would be impossible to gain since NO ONE spends all day in such a state that they are healing with an enlarged girth.

So exactly HOW does the recovery process fit into PE? Almost everyone who’s PE’d and made big gains has testified as to the critical importance of recovery time. Except for two people - and they are some of the biggest gainers - DLD and Bib. DLD never takes days off and does a HUGE workload, and Bib made his gains by hanging - what ? - 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. Then by doing - get this - 10 sets of 10 min extreme uli’s every day! Jesus! I do 4 sets and my unit looks like chopped liver.

Then we have all the others. Yguy, the biggest gainer, speaks of the importance of rest time and days off. Did he ever do more than 60 minutes a day of PE? PEforeal has gained a total of 2” x 2” (a gain I’d LOVE to reproduce on my own unit - can you imagine - 9 x 7.7” !!! ) and states that had he not learned to take periodic layoffs from PE, he would not have gained that much.

I’m confused. It’s too bad that the medical community is convinced that PE is a hoax, or else we might have some answers by now.

Your thoughts?

You mean like with Rocky 4.

With these Russian training secrets, my unit will grow so big and strong….. whatever (vagina) he hits… he destroys!

Excellent post. You also have a curious & analytical mind; but I say this not as a gratuitous or self-indulging observation - but you’re where I’m at right now, in terms of stalled gains & frustration with PE methodology/”science.”

I, too, have made undeniable gains - a solid inch of EL above & beyond what I’ve ever had. In terms of EG, I had gained about 1.13” at one point; even after some loss after virtually neglecting all girth work, I’m still holding at 6-plus (which is a solid gain of more that 4/5”). But I’ve hit the proverbial “brick wall,” & I’m damn frustrated now.

I remember you discussing your extreme workouts and I believe that yours is a classic case of strengthening your cock - perhaps to your detriment (not in terms of erectile strength of course, but further gains).

I also have my doubts about the “microtear” theory - what we know of striated muscle cannot be just conveniently ported to smooth muscle tissue. And what we get from the medical community is pure bullshit. First, I know I’m not lying about gaining, so that can be quickly ruled out. Second, I don’t buy the whole “scar tissue build-up” theory either, because there are no anomalies, bulges, ridges, etc. in my shaft, nor have I lost any sensitivity (all of which are hallmarks of scar tissue). Furthermore, if my penis is just “swollen,” then it’s been swollen for almost 17 months. Hell, I recently took a piss in 5-degree weather, with snow falling, and yeah my unit retracted a little under such brutal conditions - but not to the smallness it used to under such extremes.

So, we’ve both had real size increases, - which have all but stopped. The key to continuing those gains is, of course, to figure out how the hell you got those gains in the first place and why they occurred (conditions, etc.).

I’ve also never used an ADS, so there goes that theory of healing being required in the extended state for gains. I’ve done a few fowfers, but not enough to qualify for any solid conclusions.

So far, my view (tentatively), is that PE gains are the results of: (1) Stretching/expanding the spongy erectile tissues [which might seem to hint at some “microtearing” perhaps - or just deformation maybe] via impaction stresses (i.e., jelqing, ulis, etc), and (2) Plastic deformation of the soft tissues as well as the connective tissues (i.e., ligs, tendons, tunica) - via tractile stresses (i.e., stretching, hanging).

Even Bib did take 2 days off out of 7; although, as you said, DLD claims to PE 365 days per year. But, if we consider the extremes in regular gym workouts per individual capacities, it should come as no surprise that PE also affects people differently.

Take a break….it is already helping me. And come back slowly. Assume a baseline - maybe every other day, or 2-on, 2-off; perhaps you could experiment with “mini-cycles” (as I described above - heavy week, light week, etc.).

But one thing is clear - we’re subjecting our units to too much trauma. It ain’t promoting further growth, is it? What’s next? Placing our cocks in a bearing press & exerting 15 tons of force on it? :o

Think….Less is more. Now, go experiment for some particulars. You can save yourself some time by doing it now; or, you’ll just quit PE altogether - or you’ll be doing this reduction eventually.
- wad

Ed,
Another few things I’d forgotten to mention.
I believe that the key to continue gaining in PE – for most of us, that is, not the easy gainers – is to always be willing to tweak things. Don’t get too comfortable or stubborn with your current approach. I’ll draw a few examples from my lifting career, as well as Dr. Selye’s findings on stress.

When I hit a plateau in the benchpress of 375 lbs, nothing could make me gain any more. In fact, if I hit it too hard, I’d find myself being unable to even get 375 (“overtraining”). I had been benching, at that stage, every Monday & Thursday. Why? Because all the other big boys in the gym were doing that! When I forced myself to bench just every 5 days – BAM! I skated past 380, and quickly hit 400 – whence I stalled again. I analyzed my bench, and found out where my “weak spot” was – anterior delts. So, I set out to increase my seated military press, but it was a pathetic 225-228 (I always missed 230). I hit the delts really hard, got up to 235, but another brick wall. Very stubborn. A guy explained the rotator cuff to me, and how it is always a weakness in 95% of trainees, and he gave me a special exercise to do. I then increased my seated press by 30 lbs in 31 days… (and I’m lifetime drug-free). I was now seated pressing 265 lbs, and my bench quickly shot up to 415 lbs.

It stalled again. This time, I forced myself to work each major muscle group only once per week. And I never hit any muscle maximally 2 consecutive weeks. Results? In no time, my seated press shot up to 300 lbs, and I did a 435-lb strict, competition-style pause bench (the most, in fact, I’ve ever tried). At about that time, I pretty much disappeared from the gym – work, family, became my eldest son’s little league coach, etc. But the point is, I made gains when no further gains seemed possible (and drug-free, also) – but this was only made possible by constantly analyzing my situation. And, in fact, reducing my workout frequency. Which brings me to the 2ND part of this post….

Dr. Hans Selye published enlightening studies on the body & it’s reactions to stress. Selye determined that the average person has the potential to increase the strength of their skeletal muscles by about 300%; however, the body’s ability to handle ever greater stresses increases by only about 50%. Ahem…. The dilemma is obvious: The bigger & stronger we get, the more likely we are to overdo it. In other words, our gains outdistance our ability to cope with the stresses associated with the training for those gains.

What pisses me off is that I was still gaining well when I was forced to quit lifting – that was about 7 years ago. At age 39, I’m too old – and too busy – to really consider giving my all-time best lifts another run. I sure wished that I learned to listen to my body at a younger age – to listen carefully (and not just arbitrarily doing what others were arbitrarily doing). I believe I could’ve achieved the very exclusive club of lifetime drug-free 500-benchers. But, I still want a bigger dick – and I’m not limited in trying for it by those considerations now.

I believe that gains are around the corner – for both of us. If we just apply the lessons. Continue thinking about PE physiology/methodology. And don’t be afraid to tweak things. Meditate on any possibilities which might have a bearing on gains – and give it an honest try.

Some areas I’m thinking about are: (1) moist heat therapy – somehow, for some reason, I’d gotten away from doing this long ago (too “inconvenient” perhaps), (2) supplementation – especially a vasodilator like ginseng, (3) proper hydration, (4) avoid substances which impede blood flow – caffeine, nicotine, excess alcohol, excess salt, (5) improve general level of fitness, (5) experiment with workout combinations, exercises, frequencies, durations, etc., etc.

Remember, it’s often just a tweak here or a tweak here that propels us to new gains, and leaves us thinking, “Damn! Why didn’t I see that earlier?”

Best of luck.

Wad, to me it sounds like your obviously on to something. I would suggest doing like you said, and try to start an “experiment.” With maybe 10-20 people doing what you said, and entering their stats in the data sheet, and see how much of a difference it makes, and after the 16 week period, see if it made a significant change. I would also suggest running other routines where you have another 10-20 people doing 3 days on 3 days off, then another group of people doing 2 on and 1 off, and then maybe another group doing 4 days on and 1 off. I think if someone were to run this experiment it could go pretty far, and further advance PE. Maybe we would know what ACTUALY does work best. But keep in mind you need more than 5 people to do the experiment, because chances are half the people will drop, but if you use 10-20 people that still 5-10 people in each group. I see nothing but good coming from this :D . I would be willing to be in the experiment, and even help “set up” the experiment, if needed.

>>>>>Dr. Hans Selye published enlightening studies on the body & it’s reactions to stress. Selye determined that the average person has the potential to increase the strength of their skeletal muscles by about 300%; however, the body’s ability to handle ever greater stresses increases by only about 50%. Ahem…. The dilemma is obvious: The bigger & stronger we get, the more likely we are to overdo it. In other words, our gains outdistance our ability to cope with the stresses associated with the training for those gains.

Are you psychic? I was JUST thinking about this exact same thing today. The above is (almost word for word) also discussed in Mike Mentzer’s original Heavy Duy book, which I first read years ago as a teen.

I owe Mike Mentzer (and Stuart McRobert). I never really mentioned this before, but when I was younger I was pretty damn skeletal (135 lbs. at a little over 6 feet). I did manage to build up to about 190 solid lbs., using Heavy Duty, and, later, Stuart McRobert’s Brawn almost exclusively for training information.

Maybe I should have stayed skinny. A natural 7 x 5.7 looks pretty big on a skeleton. :)

If I could make the same progress with my PE that I did with my weight training….

So, no need to convince me on the “less is more” schools of weight training. Preaching to the choir here. The major dilemma for me is the fact that, as you said, erectile tissue is not the same as skeletal muscle tissue, and we *just don’t know for sure* what in the hell is actually happening with PE. You outlined above what you *think* is happening, and it sounded good, but we just don’t know for sure.

With weight training, I have some understanding of what is happening. Or what I think is happening. Let me put it the way I understand it so I can show how I think that it differs from PE:

With weight training, I kind of see it as a survival response. A workout is a form of physical stress. Exercise doesn’t make you stronger - you are weaker and actually in worse physical condition immediately after a workout than you were before it. In other words, you are *more vulnerable* after a workout. Our bodies don’t know that we live in 21st century America and don’t know that there isn’t a large animal waiting around every corner to take a bite out of us. If a physical stress has weakened us, it leaves us vulnerable to predators, as well as infections and parasites. Therefore, the body adapts such that the same physical stress, if encountered in the future, will not be quite as taxing and not leave us quite as vulnerable. Therefore, the body adapts in order to get more comfortable with dealing with the same physical stress, in anticipation of encountering it in the future. Hence the notion of progressive resistance, progressively increasing the magnitude of the stress to continually elicit an adaptive response.

Of course the adaptation process is usually slow (after the beginner’s stage) and the stress must be encoutered *regularly* enough to force the body to realize that it *must* adapt or perish. And of course, the physical stress cannot be imposed more frequently than the body can recover from, and adapt to, said stress. So of course, we tweak our weight training workouts in terms of volume and frequency, tweak our diets and sleep patterns and other recovery factors etc. Naturally everyone is different so far as how much stress they can tolerate and how quickly they recover/adapt. So while Arnold gained from heavy training 6 days a week, 4 hours a day, that kind of stress would turn me into a walking injury. So I find the level of intensity/volume/frequency that is right for me.

So far so good. I can at least grasp the basic principles behind why weight training works and what is happening. But I can’t apply the above scenario to PE. Picture this:

Physical stress is imposed on your unit in the form of impaction and traction, stretching and expanding the tissues beyond their normal size. Now in the case of muscles, a bigger muscle is (all other factors being equal, such as neuromuscular and leverage factors) a stronger muscle. So there is an adaptive reason for the muscles to grow larger from physical stress. Not so with penile tissue - at least, so I have been lead to believe. I don’t see how having a larger unit is conducive to absorbing more strecthing/impaction stress. If anything, I’d think that penile tissue, being naturally elastic, would respond to repeated stretching/impaction stress by getting *less* elastic and therefore, smaller. I would think that it would just get smaller and stronger. Think about it, this is a tissue that is naturally elastic. So if subjected regularly to damaging stretching forces, why wouldn’t it just adapt by getting smaller, stronger, and harder to stretch??

Note that if we follow this train of thought, then ALL PE (outside of maybe ADS) would be ineffective for increasing size. Not just overtraining PE - but ALL PE.

I KNOW I’ve gained in the past, so this cannot be so.

So I’m hesitant about applying what I know about weight training to PE.

Now, I *still* think there is *some* kind of adaptive response going on with PE, but I have no clue what it is or how it works.

Like I said, and like you said, this is very frustrating. If only we knew *just what is happening* with PE!

The one thing that I think we CAN conclude is that a lay off WILL decondition our units. Take the stress away, and the body stops prioritizing adaptive energy (i.e.: nutrients) to deal with that stress. If I stop weight training, I lose muscle mass. Muscle mass costs energy (i.e., calories and nutrients) to maintain. My body doesn’t know I’m in 21st century America and that I’ll never run out of calories - it thinks that I’m still a hunter/gatherer who never knows when his next meal is coming. Every calorie is important. My body’s not getting to budget adaptive energy (read: calories and nutrients) into something it doesn’t need, so if I take away the weight training stress for long enough, the muscles decondition (lose mass).

If we are indeed toughening our units via PE, then removing the stress for long enough should result in a “de-toughening” of the tissues.

Hopefully - hopefully - that deconditioning will set us up for more gains. Why? How should I know! I don’t know what happens when you gain from PE!

So I’ll take a lay off because I think it will jump start gains. Why, I don’t know! He’s on third, and I don’t give a darn!

>>>>Some areas I’m thinking about are: (1) moist heat therapy – somehow, for some reason, I’d gotten away from doing this long ago (too “inconvenient” perhaps),

You know what I’m going to do, after my break? I’m going to bust out my steam machine, put it under my dick and leave it on the whole time while I stretch. Collagen stretches more under moist heat conditions.

Not that I have any clue WHY this might work, but….

>>>>(2) supplementation – especially a vasodilator like ginseng, (3) proper hydration, (4) avoid substances which impede blood flow – caffeine, nicotine, excess alcohol, excess salt, (5) improve general level of fitness,

I’ve got my bases pretty well covered on these points - diet, supplementation, personal fitness, etc. I don’t smoke or do drugs, don’t eat any trans fats, eat little in the way of refined carbohydrates, don’t drink very often, not overweight, no cardiovascular problems, yadda yadda yadda.

One thing I am pondering is my Vit C supplementation. Bib posted about this, explaining that since Vit C is involved in the repair of collagen, then Vit C supplementation may speed post PE healing and thereby HINDER gains. Part of the whole “stretch it again before it fully heals/don’t let it heal small” theory that says that time off from PE is a HINDRANCE to gains rather than, as we are considering in this thread, an aid.

So I’m confoozled again. If we are UNDER-recovering and overworking our units, as you postulate (and I find myself agreeing with), then I can only see how Vit C would HELP PE, not hinder it as Bib says.

But since I still have no clue what role the recovery process plays in PE, I can’t be sure if I am right about Vit C actually helping with our PE efforts.

>>>>>(5) experiment with workout combinations, exercises, frequencies, durations, etc., etc.

Yeah, I have some thoughts on that too. Coming in my next post.

With these indications, do you think a 3 on, 2 off schedule may be better than a 3 on 1 off schedule?

I’ve got to come up with something encouraging - and soon. I honestly can’t face the prospect for 13 more months of this for maybe only another 1/2” - or less, perhaps.
Going to try to “go back to the beginning” - perhaps. Tweak a few things, etc., etc. I just feel that during the past year, I’ve gotten far too little for far too much effort - and the 1/10” I thought I’d gained recently didn’t cement….so, this is the dreary update:

First 4.5 Months: 0.89” EL gain
Next 12.5 Months: 0.5” EL gain

Do the math - during my first 1/2 year I gained nearly double of what I’ve gained during the past year. If I can’t see at least 1/8 to 1/4” in the next few months, I’m bailing out - at least for the forseeable future, maybe taking this stuff back up again down the road.