Honesty

Personally, I dont think it matters how you measure, just so long as you measure the same way every time. I mean lets be real…if you want to post false measurements, thats up to you.No one else here will ever know your a lier. In the end, your only cheating one person…yourself.

I think of PE much like golf…if you want to exaggerate your score in golf (that is, wipe off a couple of strokes off your card), then good luck to you. Your only cheating yourself. There is no way in hell that your going to become a better golfer if you cheat. And there is no way in hell your going to get a bigger dick if you cheat.

After all, You will never know if your winning or losing if you dont keep score.

Ah, but it does.

If you measure any other way than pressing against the pubic bone, you risk a false measurement due to weight/water loss/gain.

I even think that if you were one of the many people who don’t get enough calcium, then started taking it, you would find you lost some length because your pubic bone might get thicker.
Conversely, what would happen if one decreased their calcium intake dramatically.
Would it allow more inner penis to come out, because now the pubic bone would be thinner?
Probably not a very good health move to gain what would probably amount to extremely little.

Johnschwabbs comments on self fulfilling prophecies and positive mental attitude and the power of belief is very interesting stuff, but I would like to add a different perspective. I think what JS was saying is that PMA can actually cause physical gains. In the case of PE, I believe a significant percentage of people’s gains are indeed caused by psychology, but that the gains are phantom gains. In other words, their gains are not true gains in physical length. Its difficult to explain, so let me explain by example.

Someone just starting PE measures his unit for the first time. Deep down inside he wants PE to work. He notices that his measurements differ by a little each time he does it so he decides to measure one last time for the *real* measurement. He wants it to be a small number because he wants PE to work. He measures 6”. He knows his previous measurements were maybe around 6.25” but he ignores this inkling easily as he has no data kept on it and he rationalizes his “correct” measurement as accurate, he tells himself that 6” measurement was the one, he casts out any thoughts that he is really bigger, all this happens below conscious awareness and in less than a second. (If you think no one would be able to lie to himself in such an obvious way see my post below.) The reward is a better feeling that PE will work.

The next time he measures he will try really hard to get the longest measurement possible, adjusting his technique so that his measurements are always longer. Now that he has a new measurement of 6.5” he is forced to always measure in this same way and so his gains slow down.

Unfortunately if his measurements had been performed objectively he would find that he has not gained anything at all.

Don’t get me wrong, I mostly believe that PE works. I am a newbie and haven’t really even started PE’ing yet. All I am saying is that averaged over the entire group of thunders place members, some portion of the average gains are likely attributable to this self fulfilling prophecy — the lying to oneself that occurs as one measures his unit. Believing it should be bigger you actually find that it “is” bigger (but its not really bigger). I am NOT saying anyone is lying, just as a statistical group this effect is likely present.

It is also likely that people who have claimed gains of 2” have in actuality gained 2.25” but have not realized it do to their overly “objective” measuring. However, I am saying that most peoples measurements are likely skewed towards larger than actual gains.

My one example isn’t the only way people may subconsciously affect phantom gains. Someone could also measure his unit in the beginning when it is 90% erect, either believing he is fully erect or ignoring the possiblity that 10% more erection hardness would effect his length at all. Then when he measures it a month later, expecting some gains, he tries repeatedly until his erection is mega super hard (110% erect) and sees gains when he measures. There are probably other ways the power of belief could affect phantom gains.

Hope I haven’t offended anyone. (I’m just a noob, go easy on me).

-Tube

Wadzilla “Great Post”

You posted exactly what I have been thinking lately. I still have my doubts and would love to see better pictures. I think I posted a good starting picture here n2growing’s main unit pics

but one problem no gains yet, the 1/4” I’m sure it was just what was lost over time. I must say I am still hopeful and I pull as hard as I can daily along with other things thru-out the week. I like you have not seen any good proof on PE sites or PE stuff sites with before and afters. Maybe someday.

Tube, then their are those perverse bastards that always error against their favor (like me).

I remember an interesting experiment I learned about in psychology class a few years ago. I hope I have the details right.

People were put in an experiment where they did not know what the experiment would be. They were sat at a table of a group of people. Everyone else at the table was working with the experimenters and were told what to do beforehand. Some simple questions with obvious answers were asked of the group (such as what is 3+4). Answers were given by going aroud the table and everyone in turn would give there response. Then something strange was done. Two lines were sown on the TV screen in front of the group and they were asked which line was longer. The table members were instructed to anser this question incorrectly, saying that they thought the line that was obviously shorter was the longer one. When it came time for the person to answer who has no idea what is going on, the person ends up answering the same as the others. In addition I am pretty sure that the person even ends up believing the shorter line is longer, ie he lies to himself internally.

Now I know there are some details that I can’t remeber that may be inportant. For one, I think there were some additional rules, like the group does not proceed to the next question unless everyone answers the same (similar to a jury situation). My point is that lying to oneself in unbelievable ways can happen when one really wants something to be true. And you don’t believe that you are lying.

-Tube

hey iam, you’re right about being a perverse bastard, you are one :chuckle:

Actually, I think i am one too. Thats why I added that bit about people being overly “objective”. Thats what I meant. Lying in the opposite direction. Still thinking most people internally lie to get positive results, them not being the crazy thinking bastards that we are. :)

Wad,

You should be given a fuckin medal for this post! You tactfully speak your mind and I greatly appreciate and respect you for that!

I’m not going waste time pointing fingers at the guys on this forum that BS all of us and themselves (you know who you are), but I will say that 75% of the members here are incapable of being objective when viewing pics.

Once again Wad… that was one of the best posts I’ve read on this forum in a long time —Congrats!

In addition to DLD and Piet, I can think of one more huge guy who posted pics: cutemikey. Now he didn’t put a ruler next to his dick, but he looked every inch of the 9” x 6.5” that he claimed ; in fact, he looked more than 6.5” in girth. Several of the vets from the old boards, including Bib and YGuy, recognized his username and vouched for him as a long time PE-er. He said he started at 6 inches, but did not give a starting girth. He also did not have starting pics but hey, apparently almost no one does.

Time frame? He said he’d been PE-ing for 6 years. For the 3” gain that he’s claiming, that’s 0.5” a year in length, and presumably even slower rates of gain in girth assuming he started average-ish in girth. So I don’t think he was bullshitting us with inordinately fast rates of gain.

Anyway, you are right that there are undoubtably some PE bullshit artists out there, but I don’t want to be the one singling them out.

EZ Rider,

What I meant was that it is irrelevant whether your standing or sitting or whether you hold the ruler next to or on top of your dick.

Of course it is important that the measurement is a bpl. In order to truly see if you have made any gains you obviously need to discount all other possibilities (as you said weight gain/loss etc) and the only way would be a bone pressed measurement.

After all to ensure any gains measured are in fact real, you need a fixed point from which to measure that will not change.

Wadzilla,

Thanks for the thread.

I’m your garden-variety newbie - skeptical but always hopeful - and the less-than-flattering fact is,my skepticism about PE consists largely of doctor’s opinions that I’ve taken on faith and internalised.So while I’m like most guys here in that I couldn’t give a snail’s foreskin about what the medical profession thinks of PE - I mean,I just want it to WORK - I’m still aware that PE isn’t meant to work at all.

Still,I suppose faith will work in whatever direction you point it in.

I remember reading in some NLP book - I think it was an early one,Frogs Into Princes - that an ideal way to do something new was to assume it was possible,assume you could do it,then forge ahead with that mind-set,and then see what works and what doesn’t.

I’ll be a very happy camper if I manage to gain an inch,and I’m very happy to see that an inch isn’t considered such an enormous ask.

Again,great thread!

Oh - PirateSteve - you’ve been doing this for FIVE YEARS?Dude,hats off.Even most obsessive people would find that heavy-going.You define tenacity!It’s inspiring and a bit scary at the same time.:)

Cheers,

Yip

Wow. I’m a bit overwhelmed by the response to this thread. I honestly suspected that there’d be few replies – or perhaps a few “Fuck yous!” I appreciate the time and thoughtful responses from the members (perhaps it’s a topic that many of you have already been considering).
A lot of great feedback, but something Tube said struck me as being particularly relevant:

Tube,
>> “Someone just starting PE measures his unit for the first time. Deep down inside he wants PE to work….The next time he measures he will try really hard to get the longest measurement possible, adjusting his technique so that his measurements are always longer. Now that he has a new measurement of 6.5” he is forced to always measure in this same way and so his gains slow down.

Unfortunately if his measurements had been performed objectively he would find that he has not gained anything at all.”

I believe that the 2ND concept – coupled with the whole body-perception disorder/concept – can explain why many guys doubt their gains, even though they get bigger measurements according to the ruler. I’ve certainly suspected this about myself. Are my gains more the result of “learning how to measure” to my advantage?

When I think about the measurements of my youth, a few things spring to mind. When I measured myself at 6.5 x 5.2, was that bone-pressed? I can’t really remember because it was like 15-20 years ago; but, I tend to suspect that I probably did not, since I would have suspected that to be “cheating.” That suspicion further muddies the waters for me, in terms of actual all-time “growth.” However, I will say this, I was extremely ripped back then (bodyfat in high single digits). I was a workout junkie with a lightning-fast metabolism. I certainly did not have much of a fat pad back then. Now, on the other hand, my bodyfat is over 20%, easily. I have a huge fat pad, and need to lose at least 35-40 lbs.

So, what can I say for sure? Well, I really did lose some size. When I began PE about 17 months ago, I was only 6.12” – deeply bone-pressed. Now, I can hit a consistent 7.5” (with a best of 7.6”). But if I deeply bone-pressed in my youth, what would I have been? Even with my minimal fat pad then, probably in the 6¾ to 7 range. That even further reduces my “all-time gain.”

Girth, however, is a different story. I do remember measuring girth with a tape measure (which I used for my biceps, chest, etc. lol), because I’d heard of the importance of girth, for the ladies. I was 5.2” mid-shaft; now, I’m over 6.

In terms of the gains made by Bib, Uli, and the other guys, I obviously can’t say they’re full of shit. First of all, I don’t know them (never even seen Uli post). And I believe that you can make some significant gains by hanging, if you have all the hours to devote to it. And, as I’ve stated, I believe there are always individuals who can make staggering progress in any given endeavor. As a 15-year-old newbie to weight training, it only took me 6 months to do my first 300-lb bench press – drug-free; I know that many would consider that to be “bullshit,” but I know it happened; and, I know the frustration I later felt as I got much bigger & was constantly accused of using roids, when I never did. I certainly don’t want to wrongly subject others to that kind of bullshit.

I’m merely saying that I’ve seen some obvious bullshit in various online forums. It gets frustrating, especially when we’re struggling to make gains. Honesty in measuring or reporting gains helps us as a community (forget about the doctors). When you combine that with honesty about our workouts, the benefits in terms of effective strategies are obvious.

One more thing….look at the dearth of paysites online. Yet, they have no “proof” to offer either. Often they rehash the same photos – from one site to another (including the bogus tribesman with the snake cock). There was also that controversy, not long ago, regarding a guy who claimed to be a “big gainer” on Big Al’s site. Allegedly, the guy later posted in a forum that he always had a big dick, that his “testimonial” was completely bogus. I know that Big Al vehemently denied this, but the incident raises questions nonetheless.

I realize that some of these websites are owned by the same sleaze bags, but not all of them. None that I know of offers any type of photo chronicle – just lots of words (“testimonials”), which are so damn easy to fake. It makes you wonder how they could be selling their info, yet have no objective, documented evidence that it even works.

We should strive for a higher standard. Let’s establish some very effective strategies - and build a case to substantiate those PE approaches, including compelling evidence of true gains.

This would help newbies & vets alike.

This is an excellent thread that touches on the heart of PE motivation. We all want to believe in unlimited potential of PE. We all believe that PE works to some extent. So is it possible to gain more than 2.5 inches? Wad is asking for proof here at Thunder’s (and what better place to look for proof?) and in essence trying to verify that our motivation for PE is properly grounded. Wouldn’t it be sad to find out down the road that we have been wasting our time continuing to PE after we have reached our maximum growth? Think of all the other things we could be doing with our time.

Personally, I believe huge growth is possible, and this gives me excellent motivation. I don’t believe it is possible to scientiifically prove it here at Thunder’s due to the private nature of the forum. I believe in huge growth mostly because of human nature and the nature of the posts here. Certainly there have been some BS artists here, but you have to be impressed with the time and effort of the veteran posters. Even the most cynical person couldn’t conjure up reasonable motivation for the kind of posting and claims made by the veteran, big gainers here. The kind of energy these people have put into their posts here would never give them a pay back if they were making it up.

The tone and, in my mind, open honesty I find here at Thunder’s has me doubting my ruler. I want to make absolutely sure that what I see on the ruler is truely a gain before I post it here. I want to make sure I measure up to the standard set here by some very excellent people.

Growth doesn’t stop it just gets harder to get it’s just like going to the gym for the first time you will get results curling a 10 pound dumbbell but after several months you could curl that 10 pounder for an hour and not stimulate you body to grow. I also think that we are over thinking the whole PE thing. I really think that the simple exercises are best I think just plain jelqing at 70% might be the best length exercise and jelqing fully erect is the best for girth. I also think hanging is the all around king for length gains but I know some people don’t have the time to slap on a bib for 2 hours a day. It’s kind of funny and I would one day like to test my theory I got my best results with just jelqing than my workout became more squeezes and stretches and my gains slowed down to a crawl. I often wonder if I had stayed with the basics if I would have kept gaining faster.

Lets all go by our NBP measurements. You cant rig that….. I’ll start first.. I am 7 inches NBP..

Next!!!

Let the BPEl be for motivational purposes only!!
That will cut all the BS out.