Is the plateau caused by fibrin and factor XIII?

In Peyronie’s disease, which may or may not be similar to the the plateau, aberrant fibrin deposition is detected most of the time in histological samples.

Fibrin is a blood clotting factor, it is normally dissolved by pre-embedded plasminogen (when activated it is called plasmin), however it can be prolonged in the presence of plasminogen activator inhibitor and it can bind to collagen via factor XIII. You can think of fibrin as temporary collagen.

Factor XIII is a crosslinker, it connects two pieces of connective tissue, like fibrin and fibrin to each other in a new way not part of the self assembly mechanism or fibrin to collagen.

Factor XIII, fibrin and collagen - PubMed

Factor XIII itself might play a role in the hypothetical changes to the collagen of the plateaued penis via its cross-linking abilities.

What if in the case of the plateau, chronic PE causes fibrin to bind to collagen, reinforcing it in a shortened state negating gains, and an upregulation of plasminogen activator inhibitor makes the normally temporary clotting structure semi permanent?

What do you guys think?

There’s a whole range of ideas thundersplace hasn’t explored yet, real nitty gritty aspects of connective tissue. I’m trying to gradually roll out these new subjects, past experience tells me unloading too much information at once causes aversion since people feel overwhelmed. I figure the more people know about the ins and outs of the tissues of the penis, the faster we can sort out a safe way to defeat the plateau phenomenon.

Call me a simpleton. I never cared about the science behind PE. I don’t need to know why it works, just that it does work.

Isn’t the plateau phenomenon already defeated, with data, by decon breaks?
I for one don’t think a plateau has too many similarities with PD, there were some members who developed PD from PE, the one I can remember, with pics, and no further detailed gains since, like, 2012, maybe? is saiyan22, he even mentioned it, can’t remember when but toward the end of his thread here on thunders, and you could see his penis curving more to the left. I think many people achieve this through, maybe, rough sex or masturbation. And kingsnake also didn’t seem to gain anymore since, he hasn’t come along anywhere to prove this wrong, so I am guessing there is a level o stress the penis has to go through in order to develop what you mentioned with fibrin and factor XIII.
A plateau might be like in the gym phase where you don’t gain anymore muscle mass. I don’t know much about that because I haven’t been a gym geek and haven’t looked for constant hypertrophy. As far as I know, even in bodybuilding when overtraining occurs, time off is taken.
What you describe could be more of an injury than a plateau.

Deconditioning breaks are time consuming and the plateau phenomenon might be in effect from even the beginning of PE, restricting gains from the very start. And, I don’t know that deconditioning breaks are a true solution since there are many people here that have a great dedication to their PE routines and know about deconditioning breaks, but they haven’t reached their goals yet even after many many years. If deconditioning breaks were the solution, I think they would have all reached their goals already.

The way I see PE right now is that we know with reasonable certainty how to initiate growth, others have already figured that out for us. What we don’t know is what stops growth. There is some factor, maybe many, that reduces the efficiency of our PE techniques, sometimes until gains completely stop.

Many people have been able to restart gains after a deconditioning break of weeks or months. But I think, and maybe this is wrong, that whatever causes the plateau is hindering gains before gains completely stop. I think this because it seems like the plateau usually comes gradually, people are gaining and their gains sometimes slowly tapper off before they stop completely.

What if whatever causes the plateau is already slowing down gains for newbies? If we removed that factor, we might see a much faster rate of growth even for newbies and continued growth for seasoned PEers until their ultimate goals are reached.

Our PE results don’t match models of growth for collagen deformation, and the existing models don’t explain the plateau. So it makes sense to start expanding our investigation of the tissue remodeling that goes on in PE beyond collagen in isolation.

You sorted through hundreds of PE routines to find ones that were effective post newbie gains and got more gains than most. That required a certain amount of experimentation and pragmatism.

Being able to sort through information like that means you’re not a simpleton.

I think most people get lost in the information after the newbie gains stop, since most of the routines seem to be based on what’s effective for a newbie. After newbie gains stop, how can you sort out effective routines except through experimentation? You had to have experimented, tried many things, and settled on ones that work.

Could you elaborate this more, in different words maybe, please? I am having trouble understanding it. I will do my best to find good readings for our common goal. This has been done before, many times actually, like even 15 to 20 years ago, but maybe we have a better chance now.
Also, maybe some people fall into life too much and don’t desire any larger penises further on, too happy with their gains so to speak.
Also, look at Ganesh, he definitely seems to have a lot of time occupied with other things besides PE, but he did gain 2,5 inches in length and over 1” in girth eventually, took him 10 years, but bodybuilding takes a lot of time as well with limited results as well.

This ^

“ The way I see PE right now is that we know with reasonable certainty how to initiate growth, others have already figured that out for us. ”

Do you believe there is a consensus as to this?

So the deformation of collagen, either in other tissues studied or in collagen gels are capable of being deformed and elongated much more rapidly than we see in PE. There’s a pretty big collection of articles in the hanging subforum on how easily collagen is deformed with force and then remodeled into a longer size, but our experience trying to duplicate this seems to always be lacking when it comes to the penis.

So in the links below, it mentions a 5.14% permanent elongation. So say you have a 9 inch penis, the understanding of collagen deformation under stress indicates you’d gain .46" from a single stretching event as described in one paper. This is very different from our experience with PE, even with long sustained stretching methods. So, it makes sense to look around the system the penile collagen exists in for explanations for the discrepancy.

More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial?

rakishly - More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial?

There is much more research into the subject of connective tissue now than there was 15 and 20 years ago, so it’s definitely worth revisiting the subject with more info and fresh eyes.

I’m not 100% sure about what other people think, I can only infer which comes with a certain amount of bias, that in general this community is results oriented. Individually we have different preferences based on past experiences of gains with various methods, but we acknowledge results are obtainable by many methods.

For instance, I have never obtained results from extenders or high weight hanging, but I acknowledge other people have gotten results using these methods and I have a preference for pumping and light hanging based on my own experience.

I think if people didn’t acknowledge results were obtainable by many methods, there would be comments on just about every routine post or progress report saying that “that method doesn’t work”.

As for what method people say works best, I don’t think there is a consensus yet. I’m not sure why that is, my own thoughts are that not distinguishing between stages of progress is what drives the divergence, or it could be there is something different in the connective tissue repair mechanisms that are driving some people to get better results from different methods.

I think probably most disagreements on the best methods would be cleared up if we just made a distinction between newbie gains, seasoned PE gains, and maybe plateaued gains. Then there’s also the problem with some methods not being standardized driving differences in gains. For instance, I didn’t get gains from extending, but I always put the extender on the highest force setting, but maybe for someone else that used a lower force setting extending is very effective.

I think there is a consensus here that elongating tissues is a trigger for growth whether that is through edging, stretching, jelqing, clamping, or pumping. There was one idea about triggering growth by rubbing the veins in the penis, but I didn’t see any reports anyone gained from that method besides the inventor and I think it was generally rejected. There are also lots of ideas about chem PE, but the ones that people seem to be supportive of mostly seem to revolve around elongation through persistent erections (vasodilators) or weakening connective tissues (POTABA). There are some people that say androgens like DHT and testosterone cause gains, but I don’t think the community generally supports that idea, I personally haven’t found evidence for it.

“In association with the above, our bodies are constructed the way they are for a reason. In general, it is for whatever traits are the best to advance the species. It is easy to realize that the structures which are the hindrance to PE, are there for protection of the male reproductive organs. The ability for the penis to retract, to keep it sturdy during wild sex on the savannah or in the caves, etc. The structures were not evolved for our current, less hostile environments.”
“>Results from this study indicate that rat medial collateral ligaments strained above 5.14% do not regain their original
length after significant recovery time and hence remain .stretched.. <
A definitive declaration of the amount of deformation required. You can have cell damage without lengthening. Soreness with no gains.”
“The threshold of cellular damage was found to be at 0% strain in the rat MCL. That is, statistically, cellular damage begins with the application of tissue strain. It should be noted that physically one would not expect an increase in cellular damage at infinitesimal strains as our statistical analysis implies. However, necrotic cells are present in the control tissues (e = 0) and are present after very small strains. This behavior did not allow the authors. to identify any threshold other than zero. While 0% strain may not be the exact physical threshold of
cellular damage, our analysis shows it is significantly different than structural damage”
“Cellular damage begins with any strain. An actual increase in the length of tissues requires more stress.”

“This could have many different implications. The uncrimping would indicate fast, easy gains. After uncrimping, the increased stiffness could be a reason for early plateaus. Then later, with reduced stiffness, gains resume as the tissues approach lig failure. Or for those who apply the perfect amount of stress/time, plateaus may never be an issue.”

quoted Bib.
I am 27, probably an iq of around 110, I am not very smart to be more precise. English isn’t my main language and I am definitely having a hard time understanding these writings. If you have a better understanding, go ahead, I will try and find more readings on the subject, right now, those caught my eye from the thread you pointed out, from 2002.

Why the natural growth dimishes and stops in general? Why the bodybuilder reach the limitations of growth.

I suppose we don´t find the cure on singular molechyles. It is not about the collagen.

It is in build mechanisms, known and still unknown.

It would probably be better to ask Bib about these, if he’s still frequenting the site. It would be a lot of work to backtrack the information he presented and reconstruct his views, which I might not do accurately. Actually, reading through this post, I’m not sure I understand correctly what he’s writing either. I’m a skim reader, but that comes with the risk of misreading things.

My thoughts on the collagen stretching studies right now is that they’re not lining up with the results we’re getting from PE because there are more factors in play in the human penis than just collagen.

Maybe nutrition/chemical PE/better foods and diet could overcome the plateau, I never even used the word “nutrition” on the thunders search, feels like ignorance, combined with rest, also something I really avoided, also ignorance I guess. Maybe a combination of both.
But I mentioned Ganesh above, he is into “super” yoga from what he is writing, I sense he is really on to something there. Relaxing the IC muscle/IC muscle development for penis gains (also something I can’t find to be writen too much about, but now I am sure as hell that it’s responsible for base girth and girth in general from the CS *clampers make their urethras huuuge*, skeletal muscle involved*)
I also believe it’s not just about the collagen.
“The bottom line is it’s a theory based on his personal experience. That he hasn’t done any tissue density testing to validate hypertrophy. And that there’s no answer that accounts for all the different ways various people have gained.

Shopping for a theory that fits your ideas is cherry picking. Which is bad data collection.”
TG said this a while back.

Trying to unravel the relationships between food and effects on the body is notoriously difficult, there are just a lot variables to work with since dietary compliance and reporting is hard to do and what is in the food can vary significantly. Usually when research is done on plants with medicinal qualities the first step after identifying a use for the plant is to separate the chemical components and battery test each individual one, which has another problem in that some chemicals act synergistically to produce an effect and won’t work as isolates. It’s not such a problem with meat, since the organs of the body tend to homogenize meat, but two plants growing on the same slope with the same water and the same soil can have very different chemical contents.

Cherry picking is bad for drawing conclusions from, but it’s great for finding a focus group to get ideas about what to test from. When someone reports significant gains it makes sense to focus on their experience and routines to devise a way to test if their routine produces results.