Behemoth's Betadine Solution

This link actually supports the fact that there is micro tearing occurring which would cause scar tissue to form,

more on CT deformation

This video is talking about cardiac muscle, the fibres of the tunica are already aligned in their separate layers it shows nothing about micro tear repairs,

capernicus1 - Loading, lengthening, healing.

In response to the link on subfailure repair without scaring this article talks on subfailure injuries in spinal ligaments leading to muscle control dysfunction,

http://www.ncbi … pubmed/16047209

And further to that this letter challenges the original to say that the muscle fascia should be included in the hypothesis not just the ligaments,

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/pm … les/PMC2078289/

Similarly, subfailure injuries due to strenuous tissue extensions can be expected to occur in the TLF as commonly or even more often than in spinal ligaments. Indeed, this consideration is corroborated by the frequent presence of clusters of myofibroblasts—cells commonly associated with a tissue repair function—in muscular fasciae such as the fascia lata, plantar fascia and TLF

We therefore suggest that the TLF should be included as an additional element—besides the spinal ligamentous structures considered by the author—in the new explanatory model for chronic back pain proposed in the article. Although fascia has been neglected in back pain research during the last decades, this inclusion will provide a basis for further research and new therapeutic directions in application of the new hypothesis. Indeed, this promise can be readily illustrated by two examples: recent findings based on tissue sections from 32 adult bodies revealed a higher average density of myofibroblasts in the lumbar TLF (compared with other fasciae, such as the fascia lata or plantar fascia), indicative of a high presence of subfailure injuries. And a histological examination of the TLF in 24 chronic back pain patients reported a striking absence of mechanoreceptors normally found in this tissue. Both findings fit well into the suggested hypothesis of Panjabi, given our suggested inclusion of the TLF.

Perhaps if the micro damage to the tunica was of controlled nature to be small enough that the remodeling occurred as the body intends it to then there may be no scar tissue, but if you are low on vitamin c or certain essential aminos in your diet then the collagen repair will be substandard any way. Add to this the fact that most PE enthusiasts get a little enthusiastic at some stage or another and you no longer have perfect subfailure conditions anymore.

I inject my penis with Trimix in order to achieve an erection. After reading another thread, I have been applying a mixture of DMSO and detoxified iodine to prevent/ repair scar tissue caused by the injection. I have followed this regemin for about two years and have not developed any scar tissue. However, it is very possible I may not have developed scar tissue without it.

Do you think the active ingredients of detoxified iodine and Betadine work in a similar way?

I haven’t come across detoxified iodine myself but I would assume they do the same thing in your case the DMSO would be dragging the iodine in deeper, however I wouldn’t use the Betadine with DMSO as the detergent in the Betadine is likely to be dragged in by the DMSO, and you certainly don’t want that to be happening.

This is basically what I’m saying.
My own experience of an event that caused scar tissue was that the level of force required and the subsequent pain involved are way beyond any normal PE practices.

Also I seems like you’re saying that all PE gains are as a result of scar tissue ?
Scar tissue contracts as it matures and is relatively inflexible, I’m just not seeing it.

No that is not what I am saying at all, what I am saying is scar tissue impedes gains, but it is a by-product of the mechanism for gains, and scar tissue will form from micro trauma, which was not what you experienced, your event was likely to be above subfailure if it caused pain which would create substantial scar tissue.

This is precisely my point, so if we can dissolve that scar tissue then we can regain flexibility, or some flexibility. I’m not for a moment suggesting that this is the only mechanism for the tunica becoming conditioned but it is certainly a contributing factor to it. And further to that some people scar more easily than others, if this is so in the skin would it not be so in the tunica (or the muscle fascia for that matter). And along with gaining flexibility we can regain sensation and nerve pathways.

Now I will make this very clear. this is not a promise of recovery or better gains, but if guys that are injured or hard gainers decide to try it and report here then we will get a better understanding of whether it is a working solution or not, for me I gained very quickly with little effort, perhaps this helped me, perhaps I am an easy gainer, we need more guys to try it to get results that are substantial.

so by the way did you start getting gains after the iodine treatment?

I will be getting privacy soon so I’m going to try this betadine treatment along with some aggressive PE, well, relatively speaking. My past PE gains of about 1x0.5 or so were from jelqing and clamping only. So on this return I’m stretching mostly with warmup/down jelq and I’m going to see if I can increase girth from hanging.

I have been doing ‘some’ stretches using my hand against belly as a fulcrum and have noticed an unusual ‘looseness’ in my unit. Is this normal? A result of stretched shaft skin? Shrinkage inside the flesh?
-My flaccid hang is the same if not better, erections are normal.

What that link shows (consistently with the video linke by Capernicus and many other studies on the subject) is that collagen fibers are not completely aligned; so some length is gained simply with a better alignement of fibers toward the force (uncrimping).

The idea that any gain in length of collagenous tissue has to pass through damage, inflammation and scar tissue is an old and naive one; the article is from 1992 and in the part that you think supports your thoughts is erroneous, as shown here:

Healing?

I’m surprised that this idea of continous scarring in tunica albuginea has ever been credited in PE, if you had scar tissue in your penis you would notice, be sure of that; there are people (me included) who have applied crazy forces to their penis, if the scarring had anything to do with PE we had developed completely deformed dicks.

We don’t break our penis and then stretch scar tissue, we encourage tissue growth. There isn’t any need of substances to encourage ‘the healing’, ‘reduce scar tissue’ and alike, I have seen people taking vitamin B, C, E, D, applying DMSO and other substances on their penises, and the outcome of all that has always been pretty much zero. If ever you have the slightiest amount of scar in your dick, forget PE for several months and let it alone.

Ok I’m understanding what you’re saying now.
I still have a problem with the idea that the mechanism that provides gains also creates scar tissue.
Most people report that along with increased sized they experience a more stretchable flaccid length and improved EQ, I find it hard to reconcile these things with scaring which as you said yourself reduces flexibility.

As far as my own experience with DMSO and iodine no I didn’t notice gains afterwards, whether that’s very relevant I’m not sure as I’ve had very minimal gains in almost 5 years.
It did however completely dissolve a patch of hard tissue about 3/8-1/2” in size so it does work.

Since it dissolves scar tissue could it also loosen ligs?

No it won’t loosen the Ligaments, it will however dissolve any scar tissue that’s there if you are slim enough for your ligaments to be near enough to the surface for the iodine to reach them.

Yes scar tissue reduces flexibility amongst other things it disrupts nerve function. I’m not however saying that every guy has scarred the tunica to the state that it is an inflexible non feeling steel rod. What I am saying is that just as studies have shown that we build up scar tissue in the fascia of muscles over time from Micro trauma it is a fair assumption that we would have some in the Tunica as well from all the PE practices performed, and this may help to rectify the problems that are associated with that.

So what would a physio recommend to treat scar tissue in muscle fascia :)

Behemoth, the first study you linked has shown nothing but the hypothesis that is scar tissue in spinal ligaments causing back pain. The other link doesn’t support anything either, it just tells that the same hypothesis could apply for the thoracolumbar fascia of spinal ligaments. So there are several missing links here: that the hypothesis is true, that applies to other ligaments than the spinal ones, that ligaments are similar to tunica albguinea.

Actually tunica has always been described similar to tendons more than ligaments; tendons are similar but not the same thing than ligaments, and tunica is similar to tendons but not the same, they are very different for functions, thickness, elasticity etc. etc..

To be even more pedantic, not all tendons and ligaments are the same, there are tendons and ligaments known to break easily and more problematic to heal, other seem virtually immune from injuries.

I know I am a balls breaker, but can’t help myself sorry. :)

That would be for a physio to answer ;) , which I am not, however I have read from a couple of physios where they use a quite brutal tissue massage that causes heavy bruising to break up the scar tissue, how they figure out where the scar tissue is I don’t know.

I lift a lot (reps x kilos ended up for well over 50,000 kilos for back yesterday) and consequently I end up with pain around attachment/insertion points when I am really pushing hard occasionally more than occasionally actually, this pain tends to hang about for a while (months), so I wondered if it was scar tissue causing the pain, well I tried betadine over the areas and it was like magic after about a week the pain was gone, normally I would have to work around this pain for months lifting light and doing remedial work around the injury.

Marinera,

You are not breaking balls here, you are a valuable addition to the conversation.

As I said these tissues are similar, they are not exactly the same, the second link confirmed the build up of fibroblasts in the fascia in cadavers, well it is my opinion that this would be the same for the tunica given the crazy things some people do, you can’t say that scar tissue doesn’t form in the tunica it clearly does.

Peyronie’s Disease | Johns Hopkins Brady Urological Institute

"The principal finding in men with Peyronie’s disease is the deposition of scar tissue in the tunica albuginea. All of the clinical symptoms are derived from this event. The curvature of the penis is due to the fact that scar tissue does not stretch as well as normal tissue. The normal tunica albuginea is composed of elastin fibers and collagen. The site of scar tissue from Peyronie’s disease is composed mostly of collagen. Although most men with Peyronie’s disease report that their penis is bent upwards, a variety of other abnormalities are frequently observed including bends in other directions, complex bends, divots in the side of the penis and hourglass deformities. The palpable plaque is the actual scar tissue that has been deposited on the outer covering of the erectile bodies. This is present in the vast majority but not all patients with Peyronie’s disease. The plaque may become calcified, like bone, with severe disease. Finally, the pain experienced with erections is thought to be due to active inflammation in the plaque and usually disappears on its own with time. "

Now if it is present in Peyronie’s disease then why is it impossible for it to be present in other circumstances?

It appeared that the Betadine helped here Surferdude1234 - Pumping Injury so it is my thought that it may help others.

I apologise for taking this thread somewhat off topic Behemoth, I found your OP very interesting and if Betadine does work it would be a useful alternative to the DMSO/iodine that I have used. DMSO is a pain to use and makes your breath stink :(

I agree that heavy handed or excessive PE could create scar tissue but I doubt it happens very often and I seriously doubt that it’s actually part of the actual gaining process.