carbs, fats, and proteins

"2in2002,

I really appreciate a person that has the knowledge and the drive to argue a point but I believe that your facts are not sound with respect to carbohydrate intake. I have heard many nutritionists speak erroneously about diet, and specifically, protein/fat/carb ratios that should make up a healthy diet. Truly, fat is not the enemy… carbs are.

Check this out please:

http://www.merc ola.com/2001/ju … /14/insulin.htm

TORSO"

TORSO. Appreciate the link :) I have read a lot of literature over the past couple of years that discuss the role of carbohydrate creating a hormonal imbalance. For every one of the ‘bad carbohydrate’ articles, I can also show you one on ‘bad fat’ and ‘bad protein’. In my mind the way we currently eat is healthy. People have consumed a high carbohydrate diet throughout history, and there has never been any evidence of hypoglycemia and/or diabetes running rampant through any culture that I am aware of. I will continue to teach a diet of 60-70% carbohydrate, 15-20% fat, and 15-20% protein. If and when the recommendations indicate that a diet less than 60% carbohydrate is appropriate, then I will teach those recommendations. Why? Because there will be overwhelming evidence to move in that direction. At this point in time there is simply no reason to take up the cause of the ‘fringe’ if you will. In my graduate level Exercise Physiology class my professor had a PhD that was in hormone regulation. Obviously that wasn’t the name of the degree, but I cannot remember it. This woman is at the top of her field and has studied it all and done tons of research. She taught the current established dietary guidelines. I appreciate that people can eat any way they choose, and have to make up their own minds. Until there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I will stick with the current guidelines :)

I’d like to see your studies showing fats and proteins to be bad.

You have none because that is nonsense. Excessive protein, which is hard to consume because usually you would vomit before you could consume them to excess just like with fat, can cause problems. But generall people don’t consume excessive protein. They consume excessive carbs and 70% is a recipe for plenty of suffering.

Early studies done by weston price in the 20’s showed that when excess carbohydrates, and not just refined ones, made there way into natives diets, health broke down very quickly. Teeth eroded and became crooked, and diabetes, never seen before, became rampant.

Type 2 diabetes has skyrocketed in the last decade and it is estimated that in 20 years every american (and many non americans) will be dangerously overweight. This is all happening in a context of much lessened fat consumption and increased use of whole/refined grains. The increase of whole grain use has been associated with many autoimmune diseases and vitamin deficiencies due to antinutrients and gultens.

To make a long story short, it is precisely the beliefs and recommendations of ignorant nutritionists that is causing great suffering in the world. I say when the evidence is in (and it really has been in for a while) that one not be to quick to say oh, they were just following what they were told. Nonsense- the evidence is there and has been. Its just a whole industry protecting itself and I think its disgusting.

Any nutritionist, if they look at the evidence in Life Without Bread or Going Against The Grain, would have to realize the truth of high carb diests - they don’t just cause weight gains - but all degenerative diseases and are probably responsible for most suffering on earth.

Also, your high carbs eating thoughout history is nonsense.

All very long lived native peoples ate much less carbs then we do now. Even the japanese ate much less carbs then they do now - and they rarely ate gluten grains. The highest lived tribes found on earth were notoriously low carb and always included plenty of saturated fat.

If you go further back, carb eating was limited to the very occassional grain (very rare), fruit and root vegetable with most of the diet animal products. This is anthropological fact.

As the diet changed due to agr. revoltution so did bone density/quality and teeth. They went from perfection to terrible.
High carb diets are very bad for health - not just what the scale says.

Have you ever heard of ketosis?
Ever hear of uric acid?

I am unsure where you are getting your information, but fat and carbohydrate are the main macronutrient contributors of energy to the diet and in the average American diet 12–16% of the calories are derived from protein, 34% from fat and 49% from carbohydrate. All of your disease information is being gathered from these averages, but the authors ‘on the fringe’ fail to mention this.

This is the latest research. Now go away and be a troll on the other post.

Right. It is low protein and low fat and that is the problem.

The 49% carbs is unnatural and not the way our system was designed to eat. 70% carbs is just insane.

I cited the books in my last post where I got my info from so I don’t know how you can say you don’t know where my info is coming from. Perhaps you are suffering from memory deficits due to high carb nutrition (lol)?

The whole fat being bad nonsense is based on a study using a hydrogented fat - which was used to damn satured fat. Trans fats are now generally acknowldged to be very bad for arteries and health. But it was never been proved that sat was bad for health. In fact, sat fat show protective influences on heart health and general health.

Most of the fats are fats recommended by nutritionist like you - polyunstaurated fats - very unstable and reactive fats - especially with heat. Very unhealthy fats.

So basically we have nutritioists like you saying cut down on fat - use heart healthy fats (olive oil is good) inluding these vegetable oils like the terrible soybean oil, corn oil and others artificial saturated fat replacements and you tell them to lesson animal protein in the form of lean meat - never consumed by earlier man - and to increase carbs - which cause unstable hormones.

This is the diets americans have aspired too and just look at the numbers. We are truly a sick people.

Even if you don’t read the books that I mentioned - it doesn’t matter, this info will be mainstream soon and I’m sure you will rationalize your terrible advice somehow.

Have a nice day.

2in2002,

should I assume that you will read the link then when you have some free time? I would really appreciate if you could scrutinize it.
I would then really like to discuss it.

have to say though that no amount of links will suffice to support an opinion like that formed by amassing life experience from daily observation and constant scrutiny of accepted ideas.
A very striking quote by Mark Twain is found on this very site, “I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”

I am surrounded by people who eat a high carb diet. Regular people and athletes. All are dying to eat after a couple of hours and are run down with no energy and vitality. They are all plgued with some sort of condition: high cholesterol, osteoporosis, osteoarthritis in their early thirties, high blood pressure and the ever popular type2 adult onset diabetes.

When I was existing on a high carb diet I never had as much energy as I do now that my system works efficiently to tap into its proper energy source… fat. I also suffered from connective tissue inflammations that disappeared when I dropped potatoes, pasta, sugar, fruits high in sugar and white flour from my diet. Invariably, if I ever eat too many carbs my performance suffers, my energy drops and my digestion suffers. From an aesthetic point of view I get a slight gut starting when I have travelled and been forced to compromise my diet. This is usually and mainly due to candida overgrowth due to the abundance of sugar found in most products. People eat processed food and take it for granted that you they will develop a little paunch around the middle as they age. I men everyone does… right. Wrong, it is in fact not unreasonable to expect to have a “six pack” well into old age.

But you say you need carbs as a catalyst for fat burning well how do you explain the Zulu people of Africa. They eat nothing but a staple diet of beef (the only source of all 44 amino acids), beef’s blood and milk(fat is essential to the creation of sex hormones). They are vigorous, lean, attractive people of great height that are free of the common ailments of American society.

You really need to read the link that I provided. You are basically standing and saying that the fat, ill countries of the world are doing just fine when that is obviously not the case.

TORSO

Have to agree that carbs is the real enemy in the world.

Especially (and maybe only..) “modern fruits” that normally have much higher sugar content than most fruits found in nature and ESPECIALLY concentraded starches like bread and pasta and cereals in the morning meals.

My health has SKY-ROCKETED (?) since cutting down on carbs and cooked food.

/Pan

The topic is diet, not AI stretches. I cleaned the AI stuff out and put it in the correct thread.

I did read the first 2 pages, it looked like more of the same type of stuff I have been reading- but I will finish it and return with some thoughts on it. As I said in my post above, over the past 20 years I have worked with a lot of elite athletes during my career and have not seen the fatigue and rundown you are speaking of, other than during the time of the training season when the athlete is working hard to stay in a broken down phase prior to tapering for major events. The idea with the ‘athletes diet’ if you will is to eat every few hours anyway- as it keeps the metabolism at optimal functioning.

Nor have I seen the medical conditions mentioned other than what one would expect from a random population sample. Actually, current studies are being done to determine if a high protein diet contributes to osteoporosis, as there have been a larger than normal amount of breaks following a high protein diet observed. The belief is that high levels of uric acid from over-consumption of protein are causing musculo-skeletal problems, not carbohydrate. I have yet to see a published study on this yet, however, as most of the professional journals are taxed to keep up with the current research.

I form opinion on life experience, not books. My reality is based on my observations- so if something works for you then do it, as anyone that lives their life otherwise is living a lie. To assume we know all there is to know is preposterous- so if something does not agree with your experience it makes sense to discard it and look for another answer.

As I said above, Americans do not typically eat the recommended diet- so the ailments experienced in this country cannot be placed on something that isn’t followed by most of the population.

We can always pick out an exception to everything, including the Zulu. If this was the ideal diet my guess is that over the centuries the world would have naturally moved towards his type of diet, as I think we do have a natural instinct, just like other animals, to do what is best to be the fittest to survive. In their situation they do not have a choice- either they adapted or died off. We are lucky the human body is adaptable in that sense. So anyways, I will finish the article and get back to you :)

I thought I read somewhere that you ate only whole, non-processed foods. If that is the case, isn’t your diet still high in carbohydrate? If not, what do you eat?

What they will find is that it is carbs, many with antinutrient properties, that cause severe calcium shortages inspite of high dairy intake. Of course, pasteurization destroys the enzme in milk that helps the body uptake the calcium in milk so pasteurized milk is not giving all the calcium it could.

In any event, patient studies in Austria show calcium levels rise (above high carb levels) as one stays on a low carb diet. In a low carb diet, growth hormone is increased and the break down of tissue decreased as insulin is an anabolic hormone.

Long studies in Austria show that uric acid levels plummet after 3-6 months on low carb diet. (not no carb diet). They are actually much lower than in high carb users. This can be seen in life without bread.

In fact, it is ironically high carbs that cause high uric acid levels.

Anyway, I’m done on this subject. If anyone is interested in learning more about low carb nutrition or a more balanced way of eating that includes adequate amounts of saturated fat, animal protein, nuts, some carbs like fruits, lots of nonstarchy veggies and some denser starchier carbs - just very moderated, check out

Life Without Bread - by Christian B Allan & Wolfgang Lutz.

Also

Going against the grain - by Melissa Diane Smith

There are tons of books on this topic that regularly dominate the bestseller lists but I think these are the best as they stay away from unproven faddish applications of low carb nutrition or dangerous exclusionary practices and offer studies and proof to back up what they are saying.

Another great book, which is a little more grain/carb friendly, albeit usually soaked or fermented whole grains, is

Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon.

This book is based on the diets Weston Price saw very healthy and long lived people around the world eating in the early 1900’s.

Anyways, good luck.

I appreciate all the input, newbie. Now if you could just please write to all the major universities over here and tell them that the research is unnecessary because you have research that shows the outcome, I am sure they would appreciate it. No sense in wasting the time and money of these organizations if Austria already has the answers.

I just wonder why our universities didn’t review those studies and just abandon their research? They must have missed this definitive information I guess, but I am sure you can point it out for them.

One last book that I should mention that is very, very interesting is called:

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration - by Weston Price.

He was a well repected dentist who became alarmed at the state of American childrens teeth - which was becoming more crooked and having many cavities and showing different jaw bone formations. He did not see this in the younger parents that he saw earlier (although there were the chronic fatigue like complaints).

He was somewhat wealthy so he decided to investigate by traveling around the world to look at the least civilized people, initially to look at teeth to see what was going on. He studied about a dozen different groups, in Africa, Canada, the Andes, the eskimos - all over the place and he found very different diets.

The common denominator was that the food was not processed at all other than some soaking or fermenting of a limited amount of grains. But grain and carbs were generall very low and nonexistent in some peoples - who happen to be extremely healthy - no cavities, perfect bones and very happy people.

The interesting part is, he took pictures. He also revisted places and checked some of the same peoples after they adopted some of the grains and processed food consumed by whites. He took pictures of that and its very disturbing.

He was a true pioneer and what he recorded is amazing. If not anything else, its a very interesting read.

Ok, I’m done.

Peace.