Consensus: vitamin C?

Okay, dangleman’s thread on “rest days” has motivated me to ask some things that have been wandering through my mind, as well. To briefly explain, I am new and want to maximize my newbie gains if possible. I think we all want to maximize gains, right? I think we may also be able to find one or two new ideas here, that could possibly help everyone, not just a few. If we cannot find any answers with vitamin C, I have other ideas but I want to tackle one at a time. In short, I think I might have some fresh ideas here, maybe we can discover something overlooked. Maybe there is something I have missed in the reading that covers this, but I haven’t seen it. I think there might be a new perspective here that we can get, and if not, no one will be any worse for the trying. If we can discover a new way to cement gains or something, is that not a worthy goal?

Let’s start by setting a few ground rules that I think at least will serve us well so the thread doesn’t go uncontrollaby “spinning off into outer space” because there is a great potential here for it to do so. We need to think a little differently here than in the past. So this will be “stretching our brain muscles” for some of us. Just don’t blow a fuse, I haven’t got any replacements!

We need to think concept, here, Think summary. Think “quantum” if that’s what does it for you. The thing to avoid, and what I’m saying is, let’s NOT re-hash the same old stuff! It’s already there! Cutting and pasting it again over here will just throw things off, unless there is something in it that supports your idea/conclusion or brings a new idea to light.

You can do a search on vitamin C and read all of that stuff, or the great majority of it. That’s what I did. As I understand it (summarizing all that stuff into one thing here) the general consensus is divided into two “camps of thought”: (1) Vitamin C is possibly good because it supports collagen formation, and (2) Vitamin C is possibly bad because it supports collagen formation! So what we have here is a dichotomy… seemingly unsolvable. Have I got that about right? If I’m missing something it’s important to bring it up.

When I read through the vitamin C stuff, there was something that struck my mind… something that maybe no one has considered before. I am not a doctor, or a nutritionist, but I do study many different things. So I had this idea…

I know from studying that vitamins are categorized into two general types. There are “oil soluble” vitamins that remain in your system for a few days. Vitamin A, for example, is an oil soluble vitamin, it stays in your system for a few days before it is excreted out. Then there are the “water soluble” vitamins, and vitamin C is among them. The characteristics of these water soluble vitamins is that they come and go very quickly. Within 4 to 6 hours after ingestion, they have gone into your body, “done their thing”, and been pissed out (literally!). Gone, in six hours. And here is where the idea struck me.

WHAT ABOUT THE TIMING, FOLKS? (Yes it was loud like that, sorry.) A new element had popped up: TIME. TIMING. In short, timing certain events so that they work to our advantage. Now let me digress for a moment and elaborate a bit more on my “summary” up above. Some worry that vitamin C is bad because it might tend to start healing things before you really want them to. This makes sense and seems a perfectly valid point. Others wonder if vitamin C is good because it might help to cement gains. This also makes perfect sense and seems a perfectly valid point.

So the (idea) question is this: why couldn’t we use this to our advantage somehow? Wouldn’t it be possible to reduce vitamin C to a minimum while PE’ing, then use it to cement gains during breaks? There may be some “timing issues” that need to be worked out, but it makes sense to me. Someone who uses intense PE for long periods, and then takes longer breaks to accompany it, might be able to “chug down the vitamin C” during his break period and cement gains better or faster or whatever. Someone else, who uses less intense sessions and shorter periods between breaks might also benefit. If the effects of vitamin C come and go so quickly, maybe this person as well can “time things” to improve his progress. He could end his session, and chug some vitamin C to help things, perhaps even on a daily basis. Or it might benefit to do it on weekends, during his 2 day break. Another possibility might be that somewhere between these two extremes, there is a “continuum” or a bell curve that could indicate an “optimal range” or “zone” that we could use to make vitamin C work for us somehow. I hope I have expressed this correctly. What do you think? Anybody?

Remember, the idea here is to break new ground if possible, use some good old inductive logic to throw new ideas out on the table, and bring “vitamin C” to some sort of a “conclusion” that we can feel good about.

Hobby, penismith, Shiver and others have quite an interesting discussion going on over there in the “Why gains slow!” thread… would you guys care to point those keen intellects over “this-a-way” and give your thoughts as well?

I hope this makes sense. Basically, it’s like my mind is saying there’s an inductive answer out there and let’s find it. Assuming that something is true, even though it may not be. I have no idea what the answer might be. I have no idea where the answer might be. But something is telling me that it’s there, if we look for it. Maybe there’s an article I missed that covers this. I haven’t seen one so I hope this makes sense.

Sulu: “Orders, Captain?”

Captain Kirk: “Oh, I don’t know… just “out there” somewhere. Second star to the right, and straight on ‘till morning.”

(Sulu and the bridge crew all grin, uncontrollably.)

Sulu: “Yes sir!” :)

Okay, I’m game.

So what seems like the key factor for me is the time frame they affect in. You said that in 4-6 hours they’ve gone thru and “done their thing”. Now, I believe that you are not far off with the going thru part, but the “doing their thing” -part is what I doubt. They are stored in your body and used whatever way they are used, they don’t all go to use at the same time they are consumed. Or this atleast is my understanding. But anyways, let’s say they DO “do their thing” :D in 4-6 hours…. In this case, the best time to take them would be right after your every stretching/hanging session, logically.

I believe as Base just said, they are absorbed in the 4-6 hours and the remains are pissed out, however your body has taken what it needed and will use this over time.

So there may be a “lingering effect”, good point. I really don’t know one way or the other. So now I guess the question becomes, does any one know where/how to find out? I tend to suspect that it’s “gone in a few hours” but I’m not certain on that.

It might also be interesting to try and determine, in a rough way, how long does it take to heal? If the microtears can heal quickly, say in a matter of hours, or does it take “days and days.” Depending upon the answer, maybe the above question wouldn’t matter much.

Hi Electron,

Base is correct. The baseline plasma retention value varies between individuals but a nominal 67 micromoles per deciliter as published in Hickey & Roberts new eBook “Ascorbate - The Science of Vitamin C” is typical. Even though the half-life of intravenous ascorbate is about 1/2 hour, it takes about 12 hours for any excess ascorbate from an oral dose to completely clear the body. Ascorbate “pumps” in the kidneys make sure that the baseline plasma concentration is maintained at say 67 micromoles. Also, many tissues in the body and cell systems like the white blood cells have ascorbate concentrations significantly higher than plasma baseline.

Hope this Helps,

MrTiPS

Nice thread, Electron.

I’ve frankly been a little confused about the role of Vitamin C in repairing connective tissues. I’ve now read in several places that Vitamin C breaks down histamines (thus, it acts as an antihistamine). But histamine is a precursor to inflammation, which I believe is necessary for tissue repair. So, I don’t get it. How can it both promote repair and inhibit repair?

The other thing that concerns me is whether Vitamin C in doses higher than one’s daily requirement makes any difference. In other words, if you’re getting enough to stay healthy, getting more may not do you any good. Less, on the other hand, may cause your health to suffer.

So, unless we find that depriving one of Vitamin C helps PE, I’m not sure there’s much promise in using it. Also, if Vit. C deprivation helps PE, should we really recommend it if it makes you unhealthy?

What could change my opinion about Vit. C is if we found that changes in dosage above the level required for good health make any difference in the progress of PE. That would be interesting.

I’ve been thinking of putting together a poll for big gainers only, enquiring about their supplements and medications. I’m especially interested in Vit. C, anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), and antihistamines.

If I can figure out how to do a poll, would you like me to start one for Vit. C?

Hi MM,

This whole issue about Vitamin C and other supplements is very complex and it’s not helped any by the artificial, contrived low RDA values that are published. RDA’s barely keep some people alive because of genetic variance and compromised immunity. The reference I cited, Hickey & Roberts new eBook “Ascorbate - The Science of Vitamin C”, goes into this in great detail and I highly recommend it and Dr. Thomas Levy’s recent book on vitamin C cures. Drs Cathcart, Levy, Rierdon, and others are quietly using intravenous Vitamin C therapy (much like Dr. Klenner did between 1950-1972) to treat some horrendous diseases and disease processes. But, that doesn’t address our challenge of PE.

I think your idea of a poll of ALL gainers about their supplements is a great idea. However, an equally interesting poll or research area would be to get their hormone and mineral profiles together with blood types of those gainers. The challenge of course is getting a statistically significant population. Still, without data it’s mostly conjecture. Also, not only poll their supplements but also find out about their general diets. Here’s why:

Enzymes - vitamins are subordinate cofactors to the action of enzymes in the human body. There is not a single reaction in the human organism that is not triggered or facilitated by one or more enzymes. Some enzymes are local to individual cells and are produced by the organelles within those cells like in the mitochondria. But, most endogenous, extra-cellular enzymes are produced in the pancreas and in the liver. Enzymes are generally chelates made up of amino acids and certain critical minerals like magnesium, copper, iron, cobalt. Most of the designer drugs on the market target enzymes but the enzymes are ubiquitous throughout the body ergo the side effects from even the best designer drugs.

Anyway, since enzymes (such as collogenase) are the major players (together with vitamins) in all biochemical processes, the gainers might have more effecient enzymes and better digestion. And, they might be eating more fresh, live produce to where they are getting live enzymes in their diets which takes the pressure off of the pancreas.

Then, there’s genetic variation at work. A high gainer on one hand might have a more favorable tissue profile of elastin to plastin whereas a hard gainer might be dominated by plastin. Or, more likely, it’s a subtle combination of all of these factors - favorable genetics, good diet, low body load of heavy metals and pollutants, and terrific hormonal and mineral profiles.

(Or, the high gainers drink like fish, screw everything that moves, abuse themselves and everything in sight, shut down their enzymes, and since they feel no pain, hang and stretch like crazy - just joking - LOL).

Everything I’ve touched on here is important - it’s a complex system. Hormones are the messengers that signal what actions are to be taken. Enzymes are the magicians that make it happen provided the critical raw materials are present to allow the processes to proceed.

Interesting Thread Gentlemen -

MrTiPS

I’m just one individual, but for whatever it’s worth to help with this discussion, I’ve taken 1000- 2000 mg of vitamin C for 17 years in a row. I’ve been PEing for a couple of years, but only recently moved from basic to more advanced. My gains are close to 1” el and 1/4” eg, and close to 2” fl (I recently posted a thread saying I went from 3 3/4 to 5 1/2 bp flaccid, but I later realised I think I was 3 1/2 pre pe—-just flaccid estimates anyway). So, has vitamin C slowed me down, hard to say? At least I’m gaining and my flaccid is a fairly good increase. I would be very reluctant to abandon the extra C because I haven’t had a cold or the flu since taking it and I use to get sick twice severely with those each year without exception. I don’t like the idea of taking a flu shot when this is working. It’s complicated to know what’s what, because maybe other supplements like fish oil (regularly) and vitamin E (off and on) that I’ve taken for years has offset any possible vitamin C slowdown. A poll does sounds interesting, just to see if somehow a trend can be spotted.

This is going to be a tough one to fathom due to the myriad of variables. Rather than a poll we’d need something more like a tick box questionaire (and to ask the right questions :) ).

For the Vit C issue, I just look at it being required for repair, so a deficiency of it could stall or degrade repair speed and quality. Seems much smarter to keep repair mechanisms functioning well, and look for other angles. I don’t see it as finding ‘The’ way, there will surely be many ways - Nutritional, Hormonal, environmental etc. I think it is worth looking at how those areas facilitate each other.

I think we could all agree that vit. C does help in repairing connective tissue. In other words, it helps with healing, to put it simply. Are you perhaps confusing imflammation with the healing process? I suppose imflammation COULD be involved with healing, but if it were, wouldn’t it be involved with the bad kind of healing, cross linking and such?

I would have to agree with Mr. Tips here. The US RDA is not the recommendation for, shall we say, “wonderful glowing health” levels. It is actually a survival level. Bare minimum. That which is necessary for life. Before we had the “RDA” it was called the “MDR” which stood for “minimum daily requirement.” It still has the same meaning today. (Some bureaucrat probably had to justify his job by inventing this new term to confuse us.) I am also comfortable with it on an experiential level… I feel SO much better when I take lots of B vitamins that it isn’t even funny. And I feel SOOO crappy when I don’t. So “the jury is in” on that one, at least for me. I have tried it “all different which-ways”… and I feel better that way.

In the case of vitamin C, the limited amount I know is that there is a tolerance level to it that your body has. Any more than that level gets purged out (diarrhea). There really isn’t a “toxic” level to it because your body will begin (sometimes a little violently) eliminating it! That’s my understanding on that one.

Some people actually like to stay at this level (well just under it, actually) to keep their level at a maximum at all times. I have not experimented with this myself, but some, like the Linus Pauling followers do it and swear that it increases healing rates, keeps allergies away and lots of other neat stuff. I have not explored this myself fully, but it does seem to make some sense. In order to find each individual’s tolerance level, they will usually use plain powdered vitamin C. Take 2,000mg or 3,000mg (2 or 3 grams) with some water. Wait an hour and do it again. Then wait an hour and do it again. Keep this up until the diarrhea comes. Then subtract 1 or 2 grams from the total, and you have yourself the daily level that you can tolerate, without gaining the nickname “diarrhea man”. If memory serves, I believe most people generally find their level to be somewhere from about 8g to 20g per day, depending upon their general state of health and whatever else.

Remember, we don’t want to think too “one way” here. I think we could say that if you never took your vit. C it wouldn’t be very good for your PE, or even your health, either. Having scurvy or being dead doesn’t sound like a very good thing to me. Agreed.

Let’s bring that new element into the discussion here: time. Timing. Timing of doses. Is there a TIME when it is beneficial, and/or a TIME when it is not. How about both?

For instance, lets say that when you PE, and for the twelve hours (to use Mr. tips calculations) beforehand, you DIDN’T take any vit. C? Could that not increase, or enhance, the effect of the destruction (or microtears) perhaps? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t, I don’t know, myself… it’s just the question that I’m tossing out there.

And, by the same token:

Could it not be beneficial to TAKE some vit. C after your PE workout, to help enhance healing?

So… it’s not like an “either-or” type of thing… it’s more like a “both-and” type of thing! Can we “use” vit. C, like a tool almost, to “work with us”?

At this point the issue is going to incur a couple of complications, as well. Those who are on a real severe PE program with no “breaks” in between are probably not going to find anything useful in all this. When they take a long-deserved break, however, they might find something: better healing, faster healing, who knows. Likewise, people on shorter cycles might find a benefit. There are people doing 5 on 2 off, 4 on 3 off, and all kinds of things. There’s a whole “spectrum” of things going on. That’s just the, shall we say “weekly cycle.” Then there’s also a daily cycle I can see: some people PE once a day, some two or three times a day, maybe more.

Is there a “time frame” for healing that exists? We need to understand what is happening better. So you’ve just finished PE’ing, you have your fresh microtears there. Now, if you take some vitamin C right after finishing, what happens? Does it help healing tissue to come in but not cement things, or does it help to “cement things” in the next two hours? In the next 4 hours? In the next day? Is this healing effect really cementing things? Or just helping weak connections to get started, only to be ripped apart again the next day?

We might be able to discover something interesting like the possibility that “it does help cement gains, but it takes twelve hours to do so”. If that were the case, then we might conclude that those who are on a daily cycle of one or two PE sessions per day will cement better by downing some vitamin C during the breaks, while those using a daily cycle of three or more sessions per day would not benefit from adding vitamin C during the healing or “break” periods.

Yes, But I think that first we need to figure out this other stuff first. Once we find a beneficial time-frame (if one exists) then perhaps an “optimal dosage” thing can be applied. Or perhaps that is just an individual thing. If you agree that more is better (like the Linus Pauling people) then you would probably do that, anyway. If you didn’t agree and think RDA is the ultimate, then you would probably do THAT, anyway. I’m in the middle-of-the-road on that, myself… I take about 2g per day, and sometimes 4g if I feel crummy. It works for me. I would probably explore that afterwards, myself.

This is a good idea, no doubt about it; but well… people tend to be fickle. Look at some of the other topics. They start off good, and kinda seem to fizzle out. I think that’s just human nature. It’s not about the place, it’s not about the topic… it’s just human nature to lose interest, forget, get distracted, or whatever. If this were a “mathematics” forum or a “wallpaper” forum or a “needlepoint” forum, it would be the same thing. Ideas of all kinds, good and bad, get started, but they don’t always get finished. It’s just how people are. So myself, I’m not holding out a whole lot of hope on stuff like that. :) A few determined people who decided they want to pursue it might be able to find something, that all of us can use. That’s why I’m doing this little project, I guess, in just one little “teeny tiny” narrow area (vitamin C). I think I will be amazed if it even gets accomplished. I don’t know, we’ll see. Maybe it will become a magnificent “flop” and Thunder will give me the “futility award” at the end of the year, for having created the “most magnificent flop of all time”! “Flop thread of the year!” award or something… we’ll see.

What we really need to know is what actually happens when you ingest vit. C (as far as healing is concerned), and how long does it take?

——-
There was an old science fiction movie where a group of people went on a journey through the human body. They assembled in the laboratory, where the scientist “shrank” the people down very small. Then they jumped into this little miniature submarine that the scientists had constructed, and the scientist put a drop of water on the submarine. He sucked it up into a syringe, and injected it into the volunteer’s bloodstream. The little people found themselves in a fascinating world of blood cells, muscles, lymph nodes, and traveling throughout the body exploring all its different parts.

This is the kind of picture we need to get. We need to park the little submarine next to a microtear. Then watch what happens when the guy takes some vitamin C. :)

All else being equal, does it heal faster? Better? Is it forming good strong tissue, or is it just making weak connections that will get ripped all over again, tomorrow? If not, how long DOES it take to form good permanent connections using vitamin C?
——-

I think I must be crazy.

So is this the book that will give us the picture we need in our little submarine? The guy just finished PE’ing, now he takes a big dose of vitamin C. All else being equal. We are parked by the microtear, watching it intently. What will we see in the next hour? The next day? The next week? Do we need to sit here and watch it for a whole day or a whole week?

Where can we “kidnap 30 or more people” and lock them in a room for a month, so we can run the statistics? :)

Enzymes and probiotics was one of my future questions. There was no particular reason I chose vitamin C first. Do you think we should “table” the vit. C discussion, and look at enzymes first?

Yes there are variations BETWEEN people, but as a single individual it doesn’t matter does it? In other words, knowing that somebody else’s genes are worse than mine, or better than mine, doesn’t do me any good. I cannot change them. Could we just “toss that one into the round file”?

Yes, it’s like standing in front of a great big radio, with hundreds of dials and knobs on it! I’m just trying to turn one knob at a time, rather than start playing with a whole bunch of them all at once! We don’t have the facilities to do it that way. As Mr. Tips suggested, maybe I started with the wrong knob.

Right, so maybe we could skip the vitamin C before pe’ing, and it would have an effect. Maybe we could do a little more damage or something. Maybe not. Likewise, maybe we could then DO some vitamin C during the break, and notice some benefit.

I’ve read from several different sources that inflammation is the first step in tissue repair and remodeling. It is necessary before subsequent steps occur. Here’s one:

Read this carefully. I don’t believe it says that inflammation is associated only with the “bad” kind of healing, but rather with all healing. It does say, however, that prolonged and chronic inflammation can cause scarring and excessive cross-linking, but that’s only when things go wrong and inflammation persists—like with carpal tunnel syndrome.

Okay cool, so it’s an adjunct to or precursor of healing, good and bad.

Or maybe we can invent a new disease, called carpal-tunnel penis!

Anyway, so we might deduce from this that too many bad heals are to be avoided. That’s interesting because it makes me wonder something new here: a person practicing “long break periods” might be doing himself a favor because he is letting it heal, and a person taking “very short break periods” (just a matter of hours between sessions) might also be doing himself a favor because he is NOT letting it heal, keeping the tissue broken up (and avoiding inflammation?), but there might be a zone “somewhere in the middle” that is dangerous? It’s not really being kept “broken up” but it’s not really getting healed either (for lack of a better term) so it’s just an “irritating” zone in the middle that stays, more or less in a constant state of inflammation, giving the person bad healing or messing up potential gains that he might have had? Interesting idea. Or perhaps the guy who is “keeping the tissue broken up” is suffering this inflammation, too.

We really need that picture of what we would see in our little submarine, before we can really go anywhere with this, I think. When the guy takes vitamin C, what would we see happening in the microtear, over the next twelve hours or so?

Lets compare this to what we would see if he didn’t take vitamin C, and, “all else being equal” what differences would we notice, if any? Just slower healing? Weaker collagen?

It seems like I read a thread somewhere that discussed something similar, and my impression was that things happen quickly. It didn’t take “days and days” for tissue to start bridging across the gap of a microtear. It started happening in just hours or minutes… little “bridges” were already forming across the gap. Can we use this?

If you get a cut on your arm and watch the healing process you will have a pretty good idea of what is going on, with some obvious differences with it being a barrier repair and air exposed. If it is a small scratch then a full recovery is likely. If the gap is to wide to bridge then the tissues shrink and major disorientation of the crosslinking occurs. Still, you can see that inflammation is a required first step which will provide the liquid medium to transport and lay fibrins. Later stages of healing will use this framework and slowly replace the structure with more permanent building blocks.

Although that is a very unscientific description, it shows how resetting the healing process back to stage 1 when the work is already extensively underway would hinder completion. So the interval of excersise would depend very much on the degree of remodelling undertaken.