Why gains slow!

I don’t want to put a damper on the momentum of this thread (it is getting a lot of views) but now is a good time to point out an important fact. Nothing may come of this. There have been numerous big threads on an exciting molecule that might be the magic bullet of PE. None of them panned out. Don’t go and start slathering this stuff on your genitalia. That is not to say that nothing will come of this, but lets be very critical. This is more of a mental exercise for determining why gains slow than a search for a chemical to combat the process. I am not and don’t intend to apply this stuff to my penis and neither should you, even if a member or two does and claims huge gains in a short amount of time; thats usually how the big threads that don’t go anywhere in the end start. I also want to point out that I don’t have any medical training and am in no way qualified to gauge the safety of any molecule mention thus far or later in this thread.

An important next step is decent. We need the devils advocate. What is the evidence against PE causing fibrosis? Is the evidence for it strong? What are the dangers of MSM and DMSO? Are the positive effects really so significant? What other methods might be more effective?

If nobody responds I will just start arguing with myself. The last time I did that a bunch of the mods sent me PMs to make sure I am alright in the head. LOL

Oh yea, lets get back to this “what stops the penis from growing at the end of puberty” thing as well. We know AR receptors decrease in number in the body of the penis. That is not really disputed, no reference necessary. The question is why?

Cheers,
PS

That makes sense.

I have personally noticed that my gains may be better when my diet sucks and I am getting very little sleep. I tend to think the sleep would have more to do with it though.

Thanks,
PS

Hobby I agree with you. That said, I believe that malnourishment might provide a minor boost towards whatever it is that we are looking for (not that I know what that is). I just don’t think malnourishment is the way forward.

I’m sure a PE’er has already put DMSO on his unit, or a PE bodybuilder put on Test etc, or a Life extensionist has put on bromelain etc. There is something more to it than that. After all, we’ve all grown from being 1 year old to adolescence and experienced growth, just not quite what we were hoping for.

This is so interesting. Look at this graph:

http://www.bioo ne.org/bioone/? … 068-02-0423-f02

Here is the paper:

This protein seems to regulate the mass of the body of the penis. Does anyone else find that interesting?

PS

That was some heavy reading! It also makes the game plan very complicated. There were a couple of proteins in there that I’d never heard of.

I’m a little perplexed about the competing relationship of the ssh and bmp-4. I wonder if their levels are inversely tidal (circadian perhaps?)

Growth factor: Function in urogenital development

HOXA13:
Deletion in mice leads to limb defects, vaginal hypoplasia and deficiency of the os penis (Hypodactyly syndrome) (160)
Human mutation produces limb and uterine abnormalities and urinary tract malformations (Hand-Foot-Genital syndrome ) (266)

HOXD13:
Male accessory organ morphogenesis

HOX10:
Male accessory organ morphogenesis

TGF-ß:
Opposes action of androgen on prostatic cells

BMP4:
Prostate differentiation

BMP7 and 8:
Integrity of epididymis

FGF8 and 10:
Growth of genital tubercle

SHH:
Development of external genitalia
Prostate development
Penile morphogenesis

WNT4:
Growth of Müllerian ducts

WNT7a:
Uterine patterning
Sex-specific development of Müllerian ducts
Repression of Leydig cells in ovary

Shiver,
Your description of the actions of BMP-4 is incomplete. It also enlarges the penis.

I am reluctant to post this because guys might try to do this themselves, please don’t.

They injected BMP-4 into the penis and well, read it yourself, “After BMP-4 treatment, sinusoidal spaces are larger upon visual observation (20x). The increased size is not an artifact of sectioning because sinusoids have a normal appearance, with an intact endothelial lining and blood cells identifiable within the sinusoids.”

This is the only example I know of where the penis has been enlarged in a non hypogonadal, non priasm way. Oh, I will post more on the priasm thing soon. I am reading the papers in full, and the evidence points a lot more toward tunica elasticity failure than the tissue growth hypothesised. This 3 hr erection/edging thing may work for other reasons (I don’t know), but not likely in the way being proposed.

BMP-4 will grow your penis. A question now is, how is it connected to DHT androgen receptor levels?

“I’m a little perplexed about the competing relationship of the ssh and bmp-4. I wonder if their levels are inversely tidal (circadian perhaps?)”

The authors and myself are a little perplexed as well: “Many researchers have suggested that Shh and BMP-4 expression are related, but the exact nature of this relationship remains controversial.”

Cheers,
PS

Looking the graphs in your earlier post it suggests that during puberty the BMP-4 is down, Hoxa-10 is up, SSH is up and PCT level or perhaps down.

The BMP-4 being down is what confused me since on it’s own (in your latest link) it produced enlargement. My suspicion is that the proteins take care of different cell types (angiogenisis etc). I’ve noticed that when I get a tunica growth (such as under heat deformation) the erect growth lags by a few weeks, as if perhaps there isn’t the internal structure to support it initially. I’m wondering if the other hormones would be taken care of naturally if there was capacity (tunica cavity space) for growth with stimulation (eg. sustained erection) that allows the hormonal axis (DHT) to grow.

On an unrelated issue, it also makes me wonder if this is the same limitation when working out (myofascial constraints of muscles)?

Here’s a link suggesting that BMP should be suppressed:

"Noggin works by suppressing the action of a protein called bone morphogenic protein, or BMP, which has a key role in a number of developmental pathways in mice and humans alike".

Hair Loss News | Latest Research Updates and Treatments

Here is a link to the paper. Most will have to purchase this one to read it. $8
http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … t_uids=14982863

The abstract is not so telling but in the article they find that the penis is enlarged and BMP4 staining corresponds to the enlargement. That is, they detect a higher than normal level of BMP4 in the enlarged penis. This is confusing and unexpected because noggin is over expressed in this study and it is thought by most to be an antagonist of BMP4. BMP4 is almost certainly a positive regulator of penis growth.

Cheers,
PS

I took another look at the article. They record the high BMP4 staining in the GLANS of the penis. This is very complex. I also noticed that these penises seemed longer but not thicker than average. I wonder if the penis gets longer first and then fills out? It is also interesting because the glans has less AR down regulation than most of the rest of the penis. I guess you might be right. At this point, I just don’t know.

This area clearly needs a lot more study!

Cheers,
PS

For those interested on the effects of androgens on penile tissue, this recent article and the references at the end sum the field up very nicely.

"The effect of androgens on penile tissue"

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … _uids=15146086h

If you sign up for an account, you can get the article for free. It is relatively easy reading.

Cheers,
PS

> I wonder if the penis gets longer first and then fills out?

From what I’ve read about natural growth patterns, that’s the case. In general, first it lengthens and then plumps up.

Penismith, your link above isn’t working for me.

I believe the glans responds to a different set of (hormonal?) triggers than the CC during puberty. I couldn’t name them in detail but some of the stuff I’ve read recently documented different results in different tissues.

http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … t_uids=15146086

In terms of it lengthening and then plumping up, that is interesting and I hope to look into that soon. Please post here if you happen to remember the source of that information.

Cheers,
PS