Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Mr. Penismith,
I’m deliberately being a bit of a party pooper here to satisfy your request for a devil’s advocate.
Honestly, I think you may be onto something, but it’s important to be very conservative in drawing inferences—especially in such a complicated area.
For example, I believe fibrosis brought about by strangling the penis (priapism, clamping, or other ways of inducing hypoxia) is probably a red herring, because, according to the studies, the fibrosis is observed only within the tissues of the CCs, not in the tunica or ligs. This would not necessarily slow PE. To the contrary, the evidence suggests that the penis generally grows to the extent of its fibrous envelope. Fibrosis of the tissues inside the CCs may be irrelevant (although it’s certainly not to be encouraged). It’s fibrosis of the tunica that concerns us.
(As an aside, it has been proposed that fibrosis of the CC tissues promotes flaccid hang. It would be interesting to know whether people with good flaccid hang are also hard gainers. That would tend to weaken my assertion that fibrosis of the internal CC tissue doesn’t affect gains.)
So, what is the evidence that PE, or even choking the penis for that matter, causes fibrosis of the tunica? I haven’t seen any. (If you want to refute this, please be very specific.)
Your argument that you may have found a treatment for over conditioning relies on the belief that ordinary toughening of the tunica induced by PE can be reversed using treatments that are effective for Peyronie’s disease.
Is there any evidence for this? How does normal connective tissue respond to these treatments? Do all collagenous tissues weaken and thin, or only plaques from Peyronie’s? One does not necessarily follow from the other. For example, in post 35, you quoted a study stating that
DMSO has no effect on normal connective tissue. Perhaps the treatments for Peyronie’s are similar.
In summary, you’ve made some important finds and have certainly expanded the knowledge base on this forum. But more data is needed to know whether your finds can translate into any benefits for PE’ers.
Of course, one of us could just volunteer to be the guinea pig :) .
OK, I don’t think this is an issue of understanding but a disagreement. I think, taken together, the information I have listed is compelling and I am not going to spend more time researching this but I will repost a little. If I find more while doing other studies, I will post it but I am ready to move on unless there are people who don’t understand. Thanks for your thoughts!
Your wrote:
"For example, I believe fibrosis brought about by strangling the penis (priapism, clamping, or other ways of inducing hypoxia) is probably a red herring, because, according to the studies, the fibrosis is observed only within the tissues of the CCs, not in the tunica or ligs.
So, what is the evidence that PE, or even choking the penis for that matter, causes fibrosis of the tunica? I haven’t seen any. (If you want to refute this, please be very specific.)"
I think the what I repost below suffices. I have already demonstrated that Peyronie’s is fibrosis of the tunica. I repost this because it talks about vascular damage and the fibrosis that results. Vascular damage results from the PE we do. That can’t be argued, we see the red dots and thrombosed veins. This is evidence that vascular damage causes fibrosis. I know you disagree.
"Peyronie’s disease (PD) is a localized fibrosis of the tunica albuginea (TA) of the penis
affecting about 2-4% of the male population (1). This fibrosis is assumed to be triggered by
trauma to the erect penis (2,3), followed by vascular damage, fibrin extravasation, recruitment of
inflammatory cells, and release of pro-fibrotic factors like transforming growth factor (TGF-β1)
and other cytokines, as well as reactive oxygen species (ROS), leading to cellular infiltration,
proliferation and differentiation. These processes cause chronic inflammation, excessive
collagen deposition and disorganization, and elastin fragmentation. This can be recognized
clinically as a palpable plaque and/or penile curvature during tumescence (2-4). Although
spontaneous regression of the plaque and the resulting curvature may occur in about 15% of
these cases (1), and some reports suggest that the injection of certain agents like verapamil
may improve the clinical condition, the majority of cases of PD seem to be refractory to
pharmacological therapy.
The recent description of a new rat animal model for PD whereby the injection of fibrin
into the TA produces a lesion indistinguishable histologically from the human condition allows us
to test pharmacological regimens in an attempt to cure or diminish the fibrosis. One approach
was based on the recently recognized antifibrotic effect of nitric oxide (NO), that reduces
collagen deposition and inhibits fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts, cells whose
persistence in abnormal wound healing may lead to fibrosis (5). NO was also a potent quencher
of ROS, one of the presumed agents in PD that induce fibrosis. Furthermore, when iNOS
activity was inhibited in a rat model of PD, tissue fibrosis is exacerbated and leads to an
increase in oxidative stress, whereas administration of the NOS substrate L-arginine and certain
phosphodiesterase (PDE) inhibitors exerts an antifibrotic effect (6-8)."
http://www.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/en … t_uids=15240426
"Your argument that you may have found a treatment for over conditioning relies on the belief that ordinary toughening of the tunica induced by PE can be reversed using treatments that are effective for Peyronie’s disease.
Is there any evidence for this? How does normal connective tissue respond to these treatments? Do all collagenous tissues weaken and thin, or only plaques from Peyronie’s? One does not necessarily follow from the other."
I already posted substances that dissolve plaques. We are causing vascular injury. Vascular injury causes fibrosis. Plaques made of fibrin and collagen result. Look at the effects of NO in the study above.
"Of course, one of us could just volunteer to be the guinea pig :) ."
I am as we write : )