Lasting effects from Propecia

Thanks for this link, I know many people that was using Accutane. If there is the slightest bit of truth to the horror stories, then the people I know should be warned. Doctors here prescribe medicine and doesn’t take one second to tell what the risks and side effects are.

To put these numbers in context, my 83 year old father has a total T of 392, and we’re seriously looking into putting him on testosterone replacement therapy.

But really, free T is the thing to look at.

According to Abraham Morgentaler, in his book, “Testosterone for Life,” total T below 400 is suspect for “low T,” and below 350 is highly suggestive.

Free T below 50 pg/ml is certainly considered low, when measured using the “calculated free T” method or with equilibrium dialysis. Free T below 15 pg/ml is certainly considered low when using the “analog free T” or “RIA” test.

I see what you’re saying, however Dr Reddy’s is a well reputed company (founded in 84) and India is hardly an unknown country :p
Since most people that take Finasteride are in it for the long haul, it’s worth considering.

I know you do know a lot about physiology- but the endocrine is whole different ball game, and frankly, I don’t think you know how to play it yet. Did you research about the drug mechanics of Finasteride vs. Accutane? Do you know the about the HPTA? Do you know about DHT, it’s metabolites, etc? These are some questions you should be asking yourself. I could care less to find the links off pubmed.gov- clearly you failed to do your research so I’m not wasting my time. Again, I know you know about physiology, especially of the penis, the anatomy, etc. But of hormones, this isn’t your area of expertise, so I’d prefer if someone with little knowledge didn’t influence the opinions of others (in such a significant issue as this. I realize the significance- you don’t yet). E.g., would you want a someone here at Thunders Place to start a thread on hanging, giving flawed instructions, such as the wrong technique? They might have the best intentions, but due to a lack of experience, their reasoning is flawed. Well, obviously you wouldn’t!

So again. Read up on your hormones, Accutane, Finasteride. Some resources include Pubmed.gov, Any of the various bodybuilding websites, such as meso-rx, Mind and muscle, etc. You’ll learn a lot about hormones.

You are way out of line here Westla. I tend to really bite my tongue when talking to mods here @ Thundersplace, because this is a great community and I feel like I can help others, as this site helped me greatly. Without the help of some members and mods here, I don’t know where I’d be. But I think you are out way of line to label the propecia website like that. Hormone problems are VERY real. Problems with Propecia/Accutane (sue me. I’m grouping them together because they are SO similar. Did you read yet? Don’t use Wiki please) are also very real. Accutane was just pulled off the market last summer. They won’t do this to Propecia/Finasteride, but I wish not to discuss that at this time, that is a different matter..

I’m calling the drug poison because of it’s mode of action. IT REDUCES ANDROGENS PERMANENTLY. It makes you less of a man. Personal drug reactions are different for everyone. Obviously some people will have more dramatic reactions to the drugs, like me. Others won’t. But regardless, the drug will permanently reduce your androgens. This reduction depends on many factors, such as dosage, genetic androgen levels, and other hormone levels as well. Keep in mind that all hormones feedback on each other, for the most part. Any drugs that lower/raise hormone levels too much will affect many processes. Think of these drugs as “anti-steroids.” Steroids, when done right, can be beneficial! But you raise them too high? Your body goes haywire. Same with this anti-androgens. Lower your androgens for the purpose of reducing male pattern baldness, thin hair, or acne, at the right amount, and you have achieved what you wanted. But lower them too much, and the body goes haywire. Unfortunately, it might take you years to realize that your sexual issues, prostate problems, cognitive impairment, reduced libido, emotional instability, neurotransmitter disfunction, anxiety, social participation, athletic performance, metabolism, weight issues, peyroines disease, blood pressure, heart problems, and ALL THE SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS THAT CAME ALONG WITH THESE THINGS were all related to a little pill the doctor suggest 10 years back to help with your balding/acne.

You know when you use steroids, you raise your Test. Too much beyond supra-physiological levels? Your body dumps all that extra test into estrogens. But this affects other hormones in the feedback loop too. LH, FSH, GnRH, DHT, E2, your glucocorticoids, etc.etc. This just goes to show how Finasteride/Propecia can affect feedback on all your other hormones.

I respect your intentions Westla. I AM against the drug. But for some, it’s a risk they are willing to take. If I was losing hair at age 18 I’d be interested in Finasteride as well. But I would want to know how it works! The power of the doctor over a patient is very underestimated. They can influence at their will! I just think it’s the doctors responsibility to educate the patient and let him know how it works. I feel now, that it is partially my responsibility now that I’ve dealt with such adversity, to help people when I can- I check back at this forum occasionally to see whats going on in an area I know a bit about. I don’t even know close to everything there is to know though- but I know enough to educate the basics and help people make informed decisions. I am doing amazing right now though.

If anyone DOES need more specific advice, please do PM me.

Invictus

Jack- I got your PM and will respond shortly. LH is pretty low. This means that your pituitary isn’t sending the signal out (LH) to your factory (testicles) to produce enough test. Prolaction is too high, and Total testosterone (correct terminology) is a bit low. But again, from what I’ve read, micromanaging hormones is a risky business. What is more important is how you feel. How do you feel?

Bluray- there definitely IS truth to many of the horror stores. I totally agree. The relationships between Pharmaceutical companies/Doctors/Patients are all very complex here in the year 2010. You have to find the right doctor that shows care for you. Pick a doctor, shop around, and when you find one you like, and trust, stay with him (but still do your own research). There are tons of shitty doctors out there, many of them eager to write a ‘script, and patch a problem. They don’t feel they are responsible for the outcome. In fact, in the last two years, on my quest to figure out what the fuck was wrong with me, during a visit my GP, he noticed my blood pressure to be high, and he suggest blood pressure medicine! Are you fucking serious? I’m in amazing performance shape here. And he says blood pressure meds? Anyways, I find the best doctors to be the passionate ones. For them, their profession is their LIFE. Helping people is what they live to do.

But you know what they say.. "It’s all about the money.”

Invictus,

It’s obvious that you have very strong feelings about this, and you obviously have a lot to contribute here. But I think you’re making a whole lot of assumptions about what WestLA does and doesn’t know.

You would make your points more forcibly if you could upregulate your facts and downregulate your opinions, especially the comments about the state of other people’s knowledge. Citations to medical literature would be ideal. Otherwise, this very enlightening thread will be at risk of devolving into a pissing contest, which would suck for all of us.

You may want to rethink this. Controlling high blood pressure is only one of the most important aspects of your health, regardless of you may look or feel. Hypertension is one of those silent killers. Usually you don’t “feel” blood pressure, but over time, if blood pressure runs too high, it leads to a whole laundry list of bad stuff: vascular damage, kidney damage, stroke, heart attack…death. Monitor yours and if it is consistently high, take the GPs advice.

invictus -

suziesun12 was savvy enough to ignore you when you insulted his intelligence and criicized his medical practice. I’m not that smart. I feel the need to respond.

I ignored this paragraph from your first rant against me when I responded to it, I’ll address some things now.

First of all, just because two drugs affect certain bodily functions in a similar manner that does not make them “brother drugs,” related, or the same. It’s true that Accutane and Propecia affect 5-alpha-reductase and its ability to convert testosterone to DHT, but that’s were any similarity ends. It’s like saying aspirin and ginkgo biloba are “brother drugs” because they both affect platelet function and can cause bruising or frank bleeding. The two drugs in both examples are very different chemically (in spite of your claim otherwise), in their recommended uses, and in the number and type of side effects. Accutane has a whole host of nasty side effects. Propecia has relatively few which affect a much smaller percentage of users.

The drug wasn’t pulled from the market because of any supposed sexual side effects (as you mentioning it here suggests). It was mainly because of its connection with inflammatory bowel disease and the lawsuits resulting from it that the company is still fighting and the fact that generic versions have been around since 2002 which significantly lowered their income from the drug.

Hmmm. I sure that’s just the attitude they’re looking for in a medical school applicant. At least you already have the holier-than-thou and know-it-all traits that some physicians exhibit.

Then you should be carrying on this crusade against that drug and not try to let your anger spill over to a drug you’ve never taken. I think I understand why you do it, but the fact is that the number of men who suffer side effects from finasteride are relatively few compared to the number of Isotretinoin users who have side effects. You can’t claim that every drug which affects the 5-AR pathway will have the same side effects or even the same number of “sufferers” as you call them.

Now to the more recent and malicious attack on my knowledge and ability to do research or understand things. Which I’ve seen from you before. I know I’m not the only one you think is stupid and who could use some of your opinion on this subject. And mind you, that’s all it is: opinion. Until I see the PhD in pharmacology behind your name and several studies done by you, it’s pure conjecture and opinion - heavy on the conjecture.

As I said before, I know a lot more than you give me credit for. One thing I know is how to separate “the sky is falling” web sites from actual medical research. BTW, I was writing about the HPTA on these forums while you were still in high school (2004).

Look who’s talking!

If you’re comparing my posts about my experiences with finasteride and the fact that I’ve never had any side effects whatsoever and your posts about a drug you’ve never taken, calling it poison and warning others never to take it then you’re the one with flawed reasoning regarding how things should be posted.

Sometimes the bodybuilding web sites will have a nice article, but I’ve never seen one that provides references to the sources of their information. Even propeciahelp.com, with its extensive list of abstracts from studies done mostly on animals regarding finasteride’s known problems (not applicable to adult humans) with teratogenisity often end with the poster’s personal complaints about the drug and “see they admit it!!” type statements. No thanks, I’ll take real medical research reports over angry consumer web sites any day.

What’s really important is the number of people who experience problems. I don’t doubt at all that the men on propeciahelp.com have problems. However, no one can be certain that their troubles all stem from the use of finasteride (like our member who reported “brain fog” while on Propecia, yet admitted that it occurred when he’d been drinking heavily). You get a small group together for a common cause and if they’re loud enough and shine bright enough lights on their problems it will seem like something everyone should be warned about. The reality is that the number of men who have sexual side effects from finasteride is still very small.

I’ve already discussed why the two drugs you have this crusade against should not be compared as “brother drugs” or even considered similar, as well as the reason Hoffman-LaRoche pulled Accutane from the market. There’s no need to repeat myself.

Don’t use Wiki? Why, because it says, “Finasteride (Proscar, Propecia) and dutasteride (Avodart), inhibitors of the 5-α-reductase enzyme that prevent the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Finasteride blocks only 5-α-reductase type II, dutasteride also blocks type I. They are not general antiandrogens in that they don\’t counteract the effects or production of other androgens other than DHT, however, DHT is 3-5 times more potent than testosterone or other androgens.”?

How about the Journal of Andrology? I have a reading assignment for you regarding 5-ARIs and erectile dysfunction: http://www.andr ologyjournal.or … t/full/29/5/514

Prove it. Post links to the research that says this specifically about finasteride. You keep telling people to “read up on it” yet you never say where to look. If you’ve found all this information about a link between the two drugs and how awful finasteride is, please provide us with the references. They don’t have to be online, most medical studies aren’t (only abstracts), but at least tell us where you’re getting your information. However, please do not post links to the opinions of the whiners at propeciahelp.com. That’s like offering an alcoholic a cure for his disease by telling him to discuss it with a bartender.

Objection, Your Honor, the witness is conjecturing. Show me the research specifically about finasteride.

That’s not what you’re doing. You’re not telling people about the drug’s good and bad effects and letting them make their own decision. You’re calling it poison and telling people (like me) who have used it successfully for many years that we should stop taking it because we’re ignorant of supposed future problems with our “manhood.” It’s one thing to present facts, it’s quite another to rant against something you have no personal experience with based on dubious research sources.

I’ll tell you this. We don’t like gurus here. They do show up now and then, mostly in regard to PE exercises, but sometimes with other agendas. Our forum search function works quite well and anyone seeking information about this subject should be able to find it. I’d like to ask you to please stop offering yourself as the only one with knowledge about finasteride and isotretinoin side effects. You do not have all the answers and the advice you give goes against research findings. If you persist in soliciting PMs or telling people that finasteride is “poison” there will be consequences.

Well after reading your post Westla, I would have to apologize for my tone, and the direct criticisms toward you. As I said in my earlier post, I do know that you are very knowledgeable. Just because your views didn’t agree with mine, was no reason to insult your intelligence. Even though you didn’t cite evidence initially, I should have been the one to cite evidence first; you are very right. This practice isn’t good science. And as you can tell, my ability to debate intelligent subjects is well below average. I should stop ranting, which is exactly what I was doing, and post facts. So I apologize for my tone, criticisms, and lack of scientific evidence to justify my claims. There were many flaws in my post- I plan to correct the way I deliver my thoughts in my next post.

I still do stand behind most of what I’ve said, and I’ll make a larger post soon with actual evidence. Lets make this into an intelligent conversation again- I’ll start by posting links and citing evidence in my next post. I have many sources, but they are too unorganized in my favorites folder and I will sort them soon, and the post them here. And I will also read the link you provided.

But I will say this- I am not a guru, nor do I think I am one. I am merely an advocate for informed decisions, with regards to medicines that could potentially affect a man’s life, in so many ways (both negatively and positively). Drugs like Propecia, Accutane, opiates, amphetamines- these drugs can all cause permanent long term damage, but are obviously beneficial, or they wouldn’t exist. I just want people to be informed on the drug they are taking, before they take it. Yes, I do have some issues with the medical world; I feel that there exists major corruption and greed among pharmaceutical companies and doctors. I believe doctors over-prescribe powerful medicines without themselves fully understand the drugs’ mechanics.

I can say that I have pondered about my personal use of Accutane, and whether I would go back and do it again- it’s too difficult to think. I needed a drug to clear acne, and Accutane did just that. If I could, would I go back in time and choose another route? I don’t know. I haven’t used Propecia, but I could understand the major pull of having a full head of hair, for those suffering male pattern baldness. I can’t say whether one should or shouldn’t use Propecia- I don’t know the extent of their balding. Even though I say that I’m against the drug, contradicting myself(!), I must realize not all people will suffer the “side effects.”

I do recognize that my above post doesn’t show this view as well as I would like, but from this point on I can correct that. I only offer personal messages to give my personal advice- I hardly call this soliciting. It’s sad to think you would consider banning me for offering advice, “soliciting PMs,” or standing strongly against a drug, but I suppose this all stems from the way in which I argued my points- I will fix this.

westla, I respect your position as a mod and vet in life, but shit dude, you need to realize that finasteride really fucks some people up. I have really bad, bad experience with fin, my life litteraly went upside-down. This community you speak of, that make it seem it’s of the end of this world, as you nicely put it, is there to help people. Not anything else.
I wasn’t even aware of that place, 3 years after discontinuation of the drug. I was so glad there was some answers of why my body had changed so rapidly, and I felt like shit every day.
Sure, some people of there may be lunatics, you’ll find them on every forum. Understand that many of the members there are having big, real big issues in life. It’s not like they’re dropping in to lengthen their rod :)

I don’t wish to attack you westla, in any way, but reading this from you, being in the position you are, makes me annoyed and sad, you shouldn’t be making such claims because you’re feeling OK 10 years into finasteride doesn’t make it a safe drug, please understand this. People are different, we react different.

And btw, It’s official, in Europe, that Propecia can cause permanent erectile dysfunction that persists even after the treatment has been discontinued. A special investigation by the Swedish Medical Products Agency completed this study and so the Presciption Information was changed.

“And btw, It’s official, in Europe, that Propecia can cause permanent erectile dysfunction that persists even after the treatment has been discontinued. A special investigation by the Swedish Medical Products Agency completed this study and so the Prescription Information was changed.”

I live in Europe and have used Finasteride for 2 years without any side effects, so a statement like this obviously concerns me. Could you please provide a link to the source of this research? I have an excellent (female) doctor who prescribed this drug only after much reading and research; so she would be most concerned to learn that there is a serious concern within the medical community about long term major side effects with this drug.

invictus -

Thanks for your mature reply to my somewhat caustic response. I trust you’ll be able to fulfill your promise. I have to tell you, however, that I’m not particularly interested in debating this subject. As I’ve said twice my purpose in posting was for balance. I hope that I have helped to achieve that. Others, though apparently not many, may want to continue this discussion on the side of those without problems while taking the drug (finasteride). Accutane is another subject and probably should have it’s discussion continued in the Accutane and PE thread.

I do understand that the drug can cause problems for some. My take on the propeciahelp.com site is admittedly based on a cursory look at it, but the first page stands as a guide for what’s inside: “If you are CONSIDERING or CURRENTLY taking Finasteride, please DO NOT post on www.propeciahelp.com — again, this forum is specifically for men who already QUIT the drug and have yet to experience resolution of their side effects.” They aren’t interested in hearing from the 92-98% of men on the drug who do not have problems. They seem to want to keep the comments only on the negative side.