Hypertrophy & PE

Gentlemen,

This is exactly what I hoped would happen when I made my original post. IMHO, Bigger said it best when he stated that our goal is CONTROLLED DAMAGE. We have to have those microtears in the ligs and the tunica in order to foster new cell growth. As my healing continues from OVERDOING IT, I am beginning to recognize the importance of creating the damage and then keeping the pressure on at a reduced level for as many hours of the day as possible. This is the challenge. How to keep the right amount of pressure on and foster cell growth rather than put too much pressure on and begin to degenerate. The method is what we need to discover. I recently read Zep’s workout progression. I really liked it. The only thing that I see missing in his program is the continuing pressure to foster new cell growth. If we look at Bigger’s routine, he worked up to hanging about 6 hours actual hang time per day. However, it was his method of reducing the weight and controlling the damage that I think resulted in his incredible gains. He was always relaxed when hanging. He always hung a little before bed. This whole methodology produced micro-tears, fostered new cell growth and provided just enough rest to avoid degeneration. I like Modemmer’s test involving the use of intervals of PE. AlthoughI don’t plan to be in one of the groups, I am also going to take the interval approach when I start back in about two weeks. I am also going to figure out a good ADS solution. Unfortunately, since I had my circumcision botched as an infant, I don’t have a large coronal ridge. This means that I am going to have to come up with something like a mini-Bib hanger to use as an ADS. In any event, I think we are onto something here.

If I can encourage you guys to do one thing, that would be to think of the TOOLS (devices) to use to keep the pressure on with the highest level of comfort possible.

Jelktoid

None of the above descriptions imply "repairing from injuries" any more than "eating" implies "repairing from injuries". Used in this context, trophy is a suffix so, without a prefix it doesn’t even exist as a word - it only gains word status and specific meaning by the addition of a prefix. It’s a semantic point.

I don’t think I’ve overlooked anything, (as your link confirms) hypertrophy is the enlargement of cells and not "cell division" as you previously erroneously stated. The specific example cited concerning links between hypertrophy and hyperplasia referred to a subject who had lost a kidney. The remaining kidney took on the workload and as a result became hypertrophic which in turn lead to hyperplasia. As far as it’s application to PE, hyperplasia may be a good thing …… now if we could only work out how to make the penis hypertrophic. And, if we could work out how to do that, and keep it stabilized, would there be any need for hyperplasia?

You’ve lost me on this one! ;) If what you are saying is in fact true, why do bodybuilders put on so much quality muscle? You don’t see a great deal of atrophy yet there is a significant amount of damage being done to promote muscular growth…… and it happens (even without steroids!)

Glad to see that you now understand about atrophy …… well, nearly! :leftie: Atrophy has many causes, but only one result - wasting, things get smaller! (Yes, your penis will become atrophic from under use too!) But atrophy doesn’t form scar tissue! Scar tissue can result in atrophy but atrophy doesn’t create it. If you go to the gym and build a huge set of muscles but then take 6 months off and do nothing, what happens? You lose your bulk - your muscles become atrophic. You will not have any extra scar tissue as a result of this, only that which you sustained by creating the muscles in the first place, because atrophy can’t create it. Atrophy is simply a term used to describe the phenomenon of wasting.

More homework required! ;) j/k Seriously, it’s great to have your input to help create stimulating and thoughtful debate.

lil1 :lep:

Tissue Growth and Regeneration
The word that describes normal body growth and regeneration activity and functions is called "Trophy". If the growth or regeneration is greater than the "Normal Activity" it is called "Hypertrophy". If it is less than the normal activity it is called "Hypotrophy". Becoming a disease process it is called "Atrophy" (a wasting away).

http://www.raci ngsmarter.com/t … _&_recovery.htm

Hypertrophy, Hyperplasia, Hypotrophy, Atrophy…

Now, I know that site is talking about plant physiology, but its the same for us, here are links
to some sites that state the same meanings for human physiology…

web med dictionary…

Fast health…

HYPERTROPHY (Search FastHealth.com) HYPERTROPHY
HYPERPLASIA (Search FastHealth.com) HYPERPLASIA
HYPOTROPHY (Search FastHealth.com) HYPOTROPHY
ATROPHY (Search FastHealth.com) ATROPHY

So, now if we take a collective view on this matter, I think we can make some sound judgment calls on it. We induce a microtear in the cells of henry, the process of trophy begins. The time course of healing by repair and the amount of scar tissue formed depend on factors such as the extent of tissue damage, presence of persisting infection, inflammation, etc. With this, I would think that damage be keep to bare minimal as possible. After the cell has been healed, and there is no scare tissue formed the next phase go into action and you now start the hypertrophy state. Stem cells come in and form new myoblastic cells that will fuse with the healed cell to make it stronger and bigger so maybe that damage will not occur again. So here again you can see the benefits of light workouts to minimize damage, you will heal faster and hypertrophy will occur quicker.

But, I don’t think we are happy with just hypertrophy! We want new cells to from, and I think gentle tension with minimal damage but continued traction to hold that micro tear open is the key! Say we workout just enough to open a micro tear and have minimal damage to the surrounding cells. Cell repair will start immediately, all this time we have them stem cells sitting there ready to go into action. This time we try to hold the stress on the cells without damaging them any further, with some kind of traction of very light force. This may be the trigger for hyperplasia, the healing process will have to fix the gap and hypertrophy is just not enough, so we have the myoblastic cells fusing to making a form of mortar by making a new cell to fill in the gap to reduce the stress on the newly hypertrophied cells.

But lets say we workout a bit too hard and damage a cell pretty bad, but not bad enough to form a scare. Now the healing process begins, but we get a bit in a hurry to see gains so we hit it again. Now I’m no expert here, but I do know repeated damage to a healing cell is not good for its future. Something has to give and most likely it will be the healing process and the regeneration of the cell may slow to a halt. We now have a cell that is in the hypotrophy state or a cell that is less functional than the one we had before. When in this state you can not have hypertrophy activity because the cell is no longer health or finished the healing, and maybe headed for degeneration from repeated damage. Hyperplasia activity may go on in the area to help with the diminished function of this cell, but this situation can not be good! Henry is not like a biceps muscles, when you have nerve damage or degeneration of cells… you will know about it!

Well we worked out too hard to night, I just know it! But deep down inside henry you really messed up some nerve endings in them cells that did not heal properly to start with. Atophy sets in as the cell tissues can no longer survive. The body will then send in the emergence workers and the formation of scare tissue will now be in the place where them healthy cells once was. This is bad news, them cells will never come back!

Modemmer.

Excellent Gentlemen, asolutely excellent. I have done some research and agree with both of you because you are both right. However, the key here is the AMOUNT of damage that is being done. It is a fine line that we all must walk. NOW HOWEVER, we need some means or devices to keep the right level of stress on the tunica and ligs to foster new cell growth in those micro-tears. I’m not sure that the Modified Bib ADS (used by LiL and P9) and the enlarger strap are the right tools. I am thinking about something that can keep the pressure on with the highest level of comfort. I have an idea and I will make a post after I make a prototype. OTHER IDEAS ARE ENCOURAGED AND WELCOMED!!!

Jelktoid

Well done! Now you’re doing your homework! ;)

Just a few points …….

I know I’m being pedantic on this but, despite what the Medsker Motocross Racing College_says (what on earth possessed you to put in that link! :chuckle: ), trophy, in this context, is not a recognized scientific term. Check the WebMed dictionary, it only exists as a suffix. While PE is not a recognized science, when discussing these issues, we stand more chance of being taken seriously and credibly if we adhere to the conventions of medical and scientific nomenclature.

Hyperplasia, I believe, is what we’re after (more cells) rather than hypertrophy (bigger cells) although both are different roads to the same destination - a bigger organ! Hyperplasia, I suspect is probably easier to induce - traction will promote hyperplasia. Hypertrophy may be much more difficult. If we look at the subject who had their kidney removed, the surviving kidney became hypertrophic because of an increased workload - the organ itself remained healthy, fully functional and undamaged - the hypertrophic condition is not necessarily malignant or dependent on injury. So, how do we induce hypertrophy and, given that we can probably sidestep it anyway and move directly to hyperplasia, is it really necessary?

Consider the implications of a drug which could induce hypertophy in specific areas of the body. Imagine cells becoming 30-50% larger ……. that would mean a 6” penis could grow to 8” or 9”, and possibly overnight! Mind boggling! If someone invented it, they would make billions!

My other concern is that, as you’ve pointed out, lighter workouts will ensure that you heal stronger, quicker. The down side of this is that you will need progressively more stress to achieve the same level of beneficial damage and this too may happen quicker and may ultimately limit your growth.

You are quite correct about hypotrophy being induced by overwork ……. but, depending on the amount of overwork, it’s often only temporary and, in my experience, it may be followed by an intense period of hyperplasia. It’s building on damage but the risks are very high - not something I would recommend! If I can use a bridge analogy - when micro-tears occur and the tissue is under traction the body responds by making a little cell bridge to join the tear. If you up the ante by increasing the traction or breaking these new bridges before they’ve had a chance to become strong, it will continue to grow. But the risks are high, especially where nerves are concerned because those cells build bridges much slower. It’s a fine balancing act to get it right with very high stakes.

lil1 :lep:

lil2big1;

Ya, I had my thoughts about adding that site, for sake of debate, to this discussion. Holistic healing with magnetic flux is something that is looked at in almost the same way people in the medical profession look at PE. But one think to note is that they are using it, and studying the effects as a form of treatment for circulation problem. So really its getting higher marks in the medical society than PE! So really to say that holistic healing is a bunch of hog wash is really demonstrating the same kind of attitude as doctors and PE.

Now I think we are getting to the point I’m trying to make. When we talk about increased intensity to produce the results we want, can an increase of frequency of work out produce the same effect? Is the make up of cells in henry the same as muscle tissue? This I don’t know, and I know how muscle responds to work load. With bodybuilders there is always two steps…

1. Bulk-up- When they are bulking up they are using heavy weight at low reps to do this.
2. Definition- Here they use light weight and high reps to trim up that newly added muscle.

We as PE’ers on the other hand seem to be in this bulk-up state all the time. Can we benefit from a similar cycle as that of bodybuilders? Can a month of high intensity and less frequency followed by a month of low intensity and high frequency help?

I have read allot about changing exercises and increasing intensity to help the tissues to grow. This may have a two fold effect on the tissues that we want to grow.

1. Increased intensity low frequency to promote new growth of tissue.
2. Increased frequency low stress or intensity to prevent stagnation and/or form a type of traction.

I don’t know if anyone has tried this form of work out or not. I know that with hanging you try to go heavy and work down in weight to stress the ligs. After the work out you try to keep the traction on the ligs with some form of ADS with light stress. This here seems to be optimal for the ligs, but what about the other tissues that make up the rest of henry?

Jelqing, ulis, and manual stretching make up the main routines everyone follows, with others the addition of pumping, for gains in length or girth. Can there be a way to use them as a from of ADS or an aid to hold them micro tears open with out damaging the tissue any further?

Say we do two days very intense work outs then follow up with three days of very light pressure but more frequent workouts through out the day with just enough stretch and blood flow to form a type of traction effect on the tissue that has been damage with the intense work out? Could this help in the formation of new tissue?

Really there are all kinds of questions with PE, and I’m sure many of them will have answers to them in time!

Modemmer.

jelktoid;

I have an idea for your ADS, but the only draw back is that it causes foreskin growth. This growth, how ever, takes a year or more of continued use 24/7 to totally cover the head, for me this is what I want. When you put the t-tape on its at a point called the POE (point of equilibrium)

If you put the t-tape on a bit forward of the POE you will have all the stress placed on the point where the inner foreskin meets the head of the penis, thus pulling on the internal structure of the penis from the head back to the base. I have used this t-tape allot in the last few months for restoring my foreskin. The stress you feel in the ligs is great, and I have gone three days without rest with it on and its very comfortable and no circulation problems! I can see how someone can use this on their days off with all most no foreskin growth, and you would be able to wear it 24/7 with no problems at all.

What I do is apply the t-tape and use an elastic strap hooked to it. I then run it over the top of my thigh, around the back of my leg and back around the front of my leg under the kneecap and clamp it to it self behind the leg. The stress is determined by the length of the elastic strap, and mine is set for about 1.5 lbs.

You can also use one of them suspender clips and a bottle with fishing weights in it while around the house. I sit at my pc with it just hanging there, and you can do this all day and night, 24/7 with no problem!

Here is a link to the T-Tape book that will help you get started, or if you want to read about it further…

T-tape

Modemmer.

I’ve never been able to understand why doctors dismiss PE so readily. After all, the principles are based on traction and this has been used by doctors for hundreds of years and the greater community for probably much, much longer. Me thinks it has something to do with doctor’s pockets!

Provided you achieve a fatigued state, then increased frequency may give better results. This may keep the micro-tears open/stressed which may in turn induce hyperplasia. :) (I’m a big fan of hyperplasia!)

The cells of the penis differ from muscle although there is a thin sheet of muscle tissue there as well. However, I’m not convinced that the cells of the penis react with significant difference to cells in any other soft tissue when subjected to the same type of stresses. For example - if you subject earlobes or lips to traction they will grow as evidenced in tribal customs in both South America and Africa. Yet lips and earlobes contain different types of cells. Traction will even work on bones which are vastly different cells.

I’d be more inclined to do a straight routine of lower intensity and high frequency on the understanding that fatigue was achieved. Both would probably do it but high intensity is riskier.

The thing we have to remember about body building is that when you’re bulking up you need masses of fuel to build these large muscle groups - you have to eat like a maniac and/or take high protein supplements. What gets left over is stored as fat, so you lose definition. Light weight and high reps will burn this fat and give you back the definition. But, unfortunately, the penis doesn’t store fat. :( So, a body building style regime may not be as effective for PE.

Absolutely! Couldn’t agree more!

Ligs (and to a lesser extent, skin and tunica) appear to be the limiting factors with growth, that’s why there is so much talk about them. If you can promote growth in these, the other tissues appear to grow quite readily.

I believe so. As you’ve suggested, frequency may be the key.

Spot on, sport! This guy’s got class! Quick, somebody make him a moderator! ;) Ooops, they already have! Well done!

lil1 :littleguy

Make any jokes about me being lazy/drunk/english (I am all 3, most of the time) but I just skimmed through most of this thread, so if I say anything that has already been said or just sounds completely stupid then just skip that part.

modemmer,

>1. Bulk-up- When they are bulking up they are using heavy weight at low reps to do this.
2. Definition- Here they use light weight and high reps to trim up that newly added muscle.
We as PE’ers on the other hand seem to be in this bulk-up state all the time. Can we benefit from a similar cycle as that of bodybuilders? Can a month of high intensity and less frequency followed by a month of low intensity and high frequency help?<

This is incorrect. Some hypertrophy can (and does, ever seen a skinny powerlifter?) occur using low reps and volume but this is not how it is done when your primary goal is growth. Here, volume and time under tension are the key words. The degree of fatigue/soreness is irrelevant also, thats just a reation to the work and not a true sign of growth. For example if I ran a marathon and then went 6 rounds with Lennox Lewis, I would be tired and sore, but not bigger (if I was still alive). Also light weight and high reps do not create definition. They would in say, a skinny dude with low bodyfat who had never trained before but as lil1 points out this does not carry over to PE.

How this relates to PE is really questionable, with no muscle in there, But I think it does. I have been hanging for a long time, until recently I always used the method of start at your max and reduce weight as fatigue comes into the picture. I have consistently been able to increase the weight I can hang without gains and I could hang a lot to begin with, compared to other newbies. So an adaption has occured as a result of PE, my ligs have got stronger! As we all well know, tougher ligs = harder gains. So I think the time under tension and volume I mentioned above is the way to go. If I want to get stronger, I lift heavy weights, If I want stronger ligs, I hang heavy weights. I think by hanging sub-maximal weights for longer periods using ADS as well, we can avoid the ‘strength reaction’ and get into the ‘growth reaction’ zone. I had a million other points to make but I forgot them as i was typing. My generalised theory is:

High weights low volume - strengthen ligs with sub optimal growth reaction
High volume medium weight - growth reaction
Low weight low volume - not enough tension to create a growth or strength reaction

Perhaps when a plataeu is reached, a month or two of a ‘strength phase’ using heavy weights will allow the PE’r to increase their poundages when hanging to a point where high volume/medium weight is effective

ranting on and on
SS4

SS4Jelq;

I was not trying to make a correlation between muscle and the tissues of the penis, but more so to the fact that there can be a benefit from a light workout with high frequency to promote hyperplasia activity because of an ADS type effect that the workout might supply.

I will try my best at explaining the theory behind it. Everyone here, I’m sure has an idea on how bodybuilders gain muscle. There is basically to ways they gain, one is by hypertrophy and the other way is by hyperplasia.

Hypertrophy is when cells become bigger.
Hyperplasia is an increase in cell numbers.

Here is an example of one such type of workout.

On Mon, and Tues> Intense workouts…

5-10 min hot wrap.
Manual stretches.
Jelqing, Uli and (pumping routine optional).
5-10 min hot wrap.
kegels workout.

On Wed, Thurs, and Fri> Very low intensity high frequencies…

6am… Jelqing, Uli, stretching, and (pumping routine optional).
10am.. Jelqing, Uli, stretching, and (pumping routine optional).
2pm… Jelqing, Uli, stretching, and (pumping routine optional).
6pm… Jelqing, Uli, stretching, and (pumping routine optional).
10pm.. Jelqing, Uli, stretching, and (pumping routine optional).
kegels workout.

The workouts can be something like this…

Jelqs 30-50 light intensity
Ulis 2-5 light intensity
Stretching 2-5 30 second pulls
Pump one session for 5-10 minutes at 3HG <—- optional

Now you can change the times and exercises around a bit to fit into your life style, but you want to try and keep them about 4 hours apart. What we are trying to do here is create and ADS type effect to hold open the microtears, with light stretching and minimal blood flow, that was developed in the Mon, and Tues workout to help hyperplasia to take place as you heal. Your Wed, Thurs, and Fri workouts should only have a fraction of the intensity used on Mon and Tues.

You might even try a three day intense workout followed by a two day low intensity follow up, with week ends off.

Modemmer.

Jelktiod,

This is an excellent thread. I think ADS is a great idea.

I guess the question is: How close to the ‘fine line’ are we trying to walk. The last thing any of us wants is to cause damage to our member and then have to sit on the sexual sideline while we heal. I am all for gains, I want them as much as the next guy. I just want to make sure that we think before we stretch (All Day).

I am planning on helping with this project, like I said in at the beginning of the message, I think this is a great idea.

DCangerous.

Great ideas guys!!
I like the concept of hyperplasia for PE as compared to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy in my opinion is on the lines of plastic deformation of a material under stress.

You pull the penis and let go, it gets back to it’s original size, because it underwent elastic deformation. Going by the theory of plastic deformation, when the pulling stress (or jelqing) goes beyond the yield point (the transition point from elastic deformation to plastic deformation), there will be plastic deformation (permanent gains). I think here, the penis cells will elongate a little (showing FSL). So this is hypertrophy (elongation of cells). I really don’t know if the cells could shrink back a little, if that is a possibility in the repair process. Maybe that’s why people say that their *gains* reduced when they took prolonged rest!!

So in my opinion *hypertrophy* is just plastic deformation of cells resulting from traction. There’s probably *no tearing* involved here, just elongation of existing cell!

Going back to deformation theory. When applied stress exceeds fracture stress, micro tears develop. So now the plastic deformation is accompanied with tears/fractures. I guess this is the trigger for *hyperplasia*. So now you can understand that the stress required to produce *tearing* goes beyond stress required to produce plastic deformation. Once we have reached this point, I think ADS with very low intensity stress to hold the tear open *might* trigger hyperplasia.

So after all this, I’d go with Modemmer’s suggestion. 2 days high intensity routine (to produce tears) followed by 3 days very low intensity pressure.

I think ther’es a slight difference between muscle building and PE, correct me if I’m wrong. In body building it isn’t exactly a traction force (tensile, elongating stress). Instead it’s just wear and tear stress on the muscle. You aren’t taking the muscle and pulling it apart at 2 ends, although the act of contrationof muscle produces some tensile forces within. In PE jelqing and stretching/hanging are all pure tensile stresses.

More on plastic defomation -


Stahlschlüssel - Key to Steel | Verlag Stahlschlüssel Wegst GmbH

Guys, you cannot draw a direct parallel with progressive resistance training and PE - the two are very different.

First of all, I’ve never seen anything that indicates that smooth muscle (SM) tissue is capable of hypertrophy. Second of all, the SM found in the penis is generally fibro-muscular bands, not typical skeletal muscle.

The tunica is collagenous tissue - and we don’t want it to thicken, we want to stretch it. The CC/CS is actually sponge-like tissue. I believe that we can enlarge the blood-holding spaces of these tissues over time - but that’s not actually hypertrophy.

So, we actually seek to enlarge our penis by 3 different approaches (and none of them involves traditional hypertrophy):

1) Stretching the ligaments (primarily the suspensory ligament).

2) Stretching the tunica (the fibro-muscular sheath which holds the CC/CS).

3) Enlarging the CC/CS.

Of course, simplicity can be deceiving…the devil is in the details.

But I believe that we’re clouding the PE waters by talking about hypertrophy or any other concepts akin to weightlifting. Even hangers - of whom I recently number myself - aren’t really lifting weights. We hang weights, and we attempt to gradually increase weight, but this is only to stretch/elongate ligaments. We’re not actually “lifting” the weights (which would require muscular contractions to qualify for that).

There’s no “magic” to PE. It’s all about laboring consistently, not giving up. DLD Blasters, A-Stretches, Jelqs, Ulis, hanging….whatever. It’s about doing them intensely, regularly and over time.

i just want to add that I think that diet should also be considered.

If you are losing weight by not eating right,..your body may not be in the best condition for your penis to grow whatever you do to it.

If you are gaining weight, like a bodybuilder would be when bulking up,..then maybe your penis would respond in the best way,..just as your muscles would.

When you are in a growing state,..different hormones and enzymes are active,..that aren’t when your body is losing weight due to lack of food.

When your body is in an anabolic state, and in the best state to grow,…certain things like testosterone, growth hormone, etc. are floating around your body.

That’s why I think diet should be considered..The best results may be obtained if this idea is taken on board.
If diet is crucial to bodybuilders, and it has been proven to make you grow muscle in combination with stimulas of the muscle tissue,..then I think it’s fair to say that it has some potential when considering that we want to grow our penis.

You don’t need to constantly eat all the time,..maybe just go on mini diet cycles of bulking and then reducing your weight,…if you need to exercise more,..it may be a price worth paying.

I’m just adding the diet idea into the mix to se what some of you more knowledgeable people think.
I think an overall holistic approach may be useful to consider, rather than just what happens with the penis itself.