PE and "Permanence"

Ramrod,
The stretch marks are scar tissue - they will never go away, but the size does. I have stretch marks all over my pecs, delts & upper arms. I was massive then. I still have the stretch marks, but I ain’t massive no more.

Furthermore, the hanging doesn’t address the girth issues. My EG, midshaft, is almost 1/4” less than it was last summer - and I still PE! The losses were due to my shifting my focus to stretching, for length. I still did some jelqs, but not the massive counts I used to do. I still hold about 6 1/8” EG, but that’s nearly 1/4” down from before. Another such loss and I’d be under 6.

With the countless hours I’ve spent fighting for the very meager gains I’ve made, I’m not sure I like what this thread is suggesting… I know Wadzilla researches his topics well prior to posting and that, combined with what he is saying, feels like the very hard crack of a whip.

RWG

RWG,
When I began PE, the dreaded thought was, “What if I don’t make any gains?” After I made gains, the dreaded thought was, “What if I lose my gains?”

PE gains are like a deal with the devil: you can make gains doing this shit, but you can never stop. I think this definitively answers a question I’ve seen posed in several forums: Does a PE'd 8 x 6 become the same as a natural 8 x 6?. I would say, clearly not. The guy born with a big hammer never has to worry about losing it, if he stays healthy & relatively active.

The swollen vessels & chambers of a PE’d cock, and the stretched-out ligs and tunica, are not constitutionally the same as a natural biggun.

As long as you’re okay with doing this shit indefinitely, this shouldn’t be a problem. If, however, like me, you expected to see an end in sight - forget it.

What’s your consistancy and type of exercises been like Wad? I seem to remember you stopping and starting quite a few times. Did you see loses every time you stopped?

I’ve hardly been a paragon of consistency, but I’ve kept fairly consistent on my size. The biggest loss I saw was the girth - on Aug. 28. 2003 I hit 161mm midshaft (6.34”). But in virtually eliminating all jelqs in favor of stretching, I lost a depressing 0.28” (to 154 mm or 6.06”) by Dec. 23 - only 4 months for that dramatic loss.

Since May 24 to now (about 6 months), my girth has been holding between 156-157mm (6.14-6.18”), by trying to keep a balance of jelqs & stretches.

In terms of length, I first hit 7.5” on Dec. 23, 2003. I first hit 196mm (7.72”) on May 24, 2004 - and I haven’t been under 7.72” for the past 6 months. I did hit 7.75” on Aug. 28, 2004 and 198mm (7.8”) on Nov. 1st - the day before my break began. I’m not sure I cemented the last 2mm of EL, although I did recently hit 198mm again.

My best consistency was during my first 7 months, when I gained 1.16” EL and 1.02” EG (7.28 x 6.22 - which is more girth than I have right now). Volumetrically, the tale is even more depressing:

First 7 months: 9.24 ci
Next 19 months: 1.3 ci

And most PE sites do say that you make the majority of your gains in the first 6-9 months, and little thereafter.

I need this break, which will go at least until March 2, 2005 - and possibly until May 2nd. I’ll decide what I’m going to do later.

Now you are taking the word of PE paysites? :)

Thanks for taking the time to post your information Wad. It will be interesting to see what your stats are when/if you decide to start back up.

I have a feeling that a lot of guys measure after a workout not before therefore inflating their gains in there own minds and than when they measure during a PE break they are getting the actual size. When Japp lost most his gains I was really depressed I’m hoping he is not the norm. I have feeling that hanging gains are more permanent and that girth gains are the hardest to keep.

I haven’t tackled girth yet, so I don’t know. But my point was, in fact, that the scar tissue is permanent. Key word: permanent.

I know you’re naturally a big man — tall and large framed. You also did a shit load of weight lifting. I’m guessing you have seriously trained for years, perhaps decades.
I have one question. Do you think you have a different body because of all the weight lifting?

Never mind the muscle tone, strength, and all that. I’m talking about the physiological change that occured in your bones, skin, etc.

I know if I never touched a weight in my life, I would not look the same as I do now.
I have a broader shoulders, pecs that are succumbing to gravity, etc.
Weight lifting has changed my physique forever.

I think hanging, and I mean the hanging I do — lots of sets, heavy weight, and consistently, will change my wang forever. I don’t see how it will ever go back to square one. It hangs from my body completely differently.

Here are my thoughts on this. People who are losing gains only increased the size of the tissue. When the PE stopped, the tissues went back to their original size. Permanent gains are because new cells formed. You cant lose cells once they are there, so the gains are permanent. That my view on it at least.

fieldmouse,
I don’t know if it’s definitive that we “form new cells,” in fact. This may or may not be true. I sure don’t know. But I suspect that guys who don’t PE certainly don’t experience the size fluctuations that I have (in both length & girth). In addition, why do you say that you can’t lose cells? Cells constantly die within our bodies. In fact, I once heard a doctor say that our bodies are completely replaced every 7 or so years. In other words, you don’t have one cell in your body today that you had in 1997. It’s quite possible that even if PE does “form new cells,” they might not be replaced after they die if we don’t continue to PE. Therefore, PE is not permanent.

Ramrod,
I know what you’re saying about changes. My bones certainly are thicker, from years of lifting serious weight. And, yes, I can still pull a respectable double biceps pose - years out of the gym. But what I was saying about scar tissue is that its a mark on the skin, but the burgeoning muscle size that first caused it can go away. Likewise, as our cocks grow so does the skin. However, if we later lose size, we might end up with baggy cock skin.

Dino,
I tend to agree that hanging-induced length is probably the most likely to retain the highest degree of permanence - but even that is within limitations. As for girth, you’re right. If you decide to quit PE some day, you might end up with a long skinny cock a few years down the road.

Wadzilla,

I know this has been discussed before. I think this comes down to whether you believe in micro-tears or not. If you do believe in new cells being grown then there is no way to lose all your size, just the temporary growth in between new cell growth phases. However, if all we are doing is stretching and expanding the same cells over and over again, then I would say yes, any gains are temporary.

However, I have not worked girth in over a year. Being a bad example of PE, I hardly do any (1 or 2 if I think about it), jelqs in a day - not nearly enough to be considered any kind of maintenance. The only girth I did lose was in the first month after I quite jelqing. That was around a 1/2” and I believe was not cemented. Since then, I have not lost any girth at all.

In the length department I have never really lost anything noticeable in my breaks, but that was only at the most 3 or 4 months at a time without any PE.

How can we explain the loss of gains for some? I think we need to look at how those gains are made. Is it possible there are “easy gains” - temporary gains via cell expansion, versus micro-tears which take longer to heal? Of course this does assume micro-tearing does happen. Would this explain why many people believe hanging works better than other methods due to it’s method of stretching?

Any thoughts on this guys?

-Tom “Kegger” Foolery

Wad,

I am not completely in the know about cell replacement, so bear with me. Wouldn’t the cell have a blueprint of what it should look like before it takes the place of the old one? For example, a cell in your foot I assume, would be different then a cell of your liver or your nose. Therefore, couldn’t you change the blueprint of the cell and in turn cause future cells to follow the new pattern?

-Tom

If my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle. :)

Seriously though, you’re depressing us. Poor RWG must be crying right now.

Tom, 0.5” is a helluva lot of girth! That must’ve put a serious dent in your volumetric size. And, yes, 3-4 months is negligible. If anything, I’m thinking along the lines of 3-4 years maybe.

I appreciate the input, and anybody else’s of course. But its as I’ve said: Nobody here can write about long-term layoffs first hand, except supersizeit - and his size losses were significant.

I don’t pretend to know if hyperplasia occurs in PE (or even in the human body; it’s been confirmed in feline muscle tissue but the topic is hotly debated among physiologists). Nor do I know if we’re really adding new cells or enlarging old ones - and even if we do add new cells, they die. Will they be replaced with newer cells if the stressors are no longer present (i.e., no more PE)?

And why do girth gains seem the easiest to lose? Are hanging gains more likely to be stable, than those from manual PE? Or pumping? Or an ADS?

The dilemma, of course, is that it takes years to determine if years will cause your gains to go bye-bye.

I don’t know…, may or may not be true…, I sure don’t know…, I suspect.., quite possible…, might not.

Therefore, PE is not permanent??

Hmmmmm.