A glimpse into my head (the one above my shoulders)

well, I didn’t mean a total compression of that area. I am asking whether the hangers should be completely parallel or somewhat slanted, with the greater opening being on the side of the dorsal area? A tight ‘V’ shape is not really what I meant. More like a \_/ as opposed to a |_| (the underscore mark stands for the tiestring for the rear hinge holes).

As long as you don’t compress the dorsal nerve, I think you can have the bottom space however you feel most comfortable. I don’t recall how much hanging experience you have, but one thing I learned is that the whole process is an individual preference and learning one at that. Aside from the few basic guidelines (recirc, being mindful of nerve, careful progression, etc.) most folks seem to find their own subtle nuances with respect to exact technique. If you can get the traction with the AFB and have the wider back space, there is nothing wrong. After all, your hanging weight from YOUR dick, with is probably a bit different from others. \_/ looks good to me, but you have to try it on with weight to see if it serves your purpose and works well. It may work great on your cock and may not be that great for myself, Tom, or others…see what I’m sayin’? groa

Tom,

>Actually, the last device I abandoned that put excessive pressure on the dorsal region is the Bib you’re so fond of. I designed the AFB to eliminate the Bib’s most serious problem, which is exactly that. <

I was afraid when you got the hangers you were not using them correctly. If they were putting pressure on the dorsal region, then you did not have them adjusted correctly. If you remember our correspondence at the time, that is the first point I made.

>I remain grateful to Bigger (btw, Bigger was my online handle back in 1997), who sent me two Bibs to try out as thanks to me for introducing him to PE. I was thrilled with them, they just felt so right, and it got me into hanging again. But I did start asking questions (Bib devotees can stop reading here): <

I will remain grateful forever to you for introducing me to PE. The hangers were the least I could do.

>* with all the high-tech padding, why the need to wrap? <

The wrap, in my case anyway, is used to collect the skin, and to form a tighter septum upon which to attach the hanger. The padding is used to cushion and deflect pressure.

Some guys find no need to wrap.

>* And if you’re going to wrap, why the padding? <

The middle prototypes (#~20-30) did not have any padding. The board member testers requested it. After trying about fifty different types of padding, thicknesses etc., this was the most comfortable in the opinion of the testers.

When you get into very high weights, it is helpful, and more comfortable.

>* And if I can pull so much harder comfortably with two fingers than with the Bib AND wrapping, why the need for elaborate “fingers” molded out of plastic?<

I don’t really understand this question. I personally can not pull more comfortably with only two fingers. A hanger is much more comfortable. What made you change your opinion about this?

>* why should the non-adjustable weight-hanging point make the head of my penis turn upward (an effect I was trying to eliminate after using the loop)? (Bigger replied basically that he found it a pleasing angle). <

Once again, if adjusted correctly, you can eliminate all, or almost all of the upturn. Also, when the skids are placed on the edge of a chair, the hang will be straight. However, I did enjoy an slight upturn. Seemed to give a better stretch in the tunica.

>And all this talk about endlessly adjusting this screw and that screw - none of it made a damn bit of difference for me in practice. I got in 30 or 40 hours with Bibs, and I couldn’t get it right in that amount of time. Perhaps I just lack the degree of intelligence, resourcefulness, and persistence some others possess. <

After reviewing your emails at the time, this seems very harsh. You seemed quite taken at the time. Your review of the hangers on these forums was much appreciated. Of course, the reason for all the adjustment screws etc., is that everyone is not the same. Many different sizes and types of penis require size and angle adjustments to fit.

Funny, you did admit, at the time, to not trying different adjustments at all as I suggested. It was good that you gained in length without having the hanger adjusted properly.

Most guys seem to not have too much trouble with the adjustments. The average length of the learning curve is probably a week or less. Perhaps you were a little more concerned with how they worked, rather than actual application.

>But the main thing that bothered me was that it really put way too much pressure on the dorsal region. I tried wearing the Bib upside down - right idea but no use because of the angles. I tried filing it down so it would work upside down, but couldn’t find any way to alter it to elminate fundamental design problems.<

Hmmm, you should of just tried the adjustments. Once again, if adjusted properly, there is no pressure on the dorsal regions.

>Finally I outlined for Bigger the thinking that’s now on my site about how a hanger needs to work. After investing thousands of dollars and no doubt the same number of hours, he basically didn’t want to hear about fundamental design problems. Can you blame him? <

Very curious again. I emailed you several times about your Bib webpage without getting a reply. Your were correct in many of your observations. However, there were some assumptions that were incorrect and have resulted in design flaws of your homemade hangers.

>The AFB emerged from my experience with the Bibs, but far from being a knock-off, it is a refinement that just happens to eliminate the need for a single source, elaborate materials and manufacturing, and about 99% of the cost. At the time I introduced it and removed the Bib referral from my web site, I apologized to Bigger. He was already saying that making Bibs was a huge drain on him, and he was thinking of stopping. <

I think anyone who is capable, and has the time should make their own hanger. I have said so many times. I wish I could have made and sent them out for free. In fact, your hangers were not the only hangers sent out for nothing.

However, rather than being a refinement, your hangers are a step back from what I was using in ‘99. You see, I made many hangers about the same as the “AFB”. I then refined them to what you were sent.

The question of cost and value is another matter. Take a nominal amount, say $10 per hour of labor. Then, multiply by the number of hours you have worked on the AFB since October. I dare say your hangers have cost many times more than what the Bib was priced. Others will probably spend more than ten hours making and testing hangers before they find something that will work. If they enjoy it, great.

Of course, to people such as you and me, the time does not matter. We work on stuff as a hobby or for the joy of creation. But many guys do not share these traits. Everyone is different. Some do not have the talent or time to build a hanger. Others just want a larger penis, not a shop class.

>I agree that the Bib offers “unparalelled <sic> sophistication .” And perhaps to some people that’s more important than price, conspicuousness, bulk, adjustability, ability to travel on a commercial flight, ease of attachment and removal, and availability (especially outside the US; from the beginning in 1997 I’ve had visitors to my site from over 100 countries). <

I, of course would disagree that the production models give any quarter in the above listed areas, with the exception of airline travel. You got me there.

Now, I have tried to answer your questions. Could you please answer a couple for me? Why have you suddenly begun to throw out vague, negative comments about my hangers? What exactly did I ever do to you? The only time I ever mentioned your hangers was to recommend that guys try to build one, since they cannot get a Bib.

Bigger

* why should the non-adjustable weight-hanging point make the head of my penis turn upward (an effect I was trying to eliminate after using the loop)? (Bigger replied basically that he found it a pleasing angle).

as quoted by Tom Hubbard

What is meant by this? How can I not make it curve up. I like my straight dick only good thing about it. If I adjust will this not happen?

Just care to know before I hang!

Thanks! TT

The last device you desiged which put excessive pressure on the dorsal region of the penis was actually the dreaded jelq/stretch Drumsticks, a mere 6 months ago……….how quickly we forget! :)

Glad you asked! I’d just resigned as editor of a men’s mag and earned a living as a freelance journalist writing articles and pamphlets, both government sponsored and for mainstream press, on men’s sexual health education - everything from “How to put on a condom” to “Foreskin Restoration” ….. oops! That one was actually published back in ‘92/3 … but I think you get the general picture. Apart from being too damn busy trying to make a difference, I doubt whether I would have been much help to you anyway. You see, I’d already been PEing on and off for about 20 years by that stage and nothing worked for me. Purchased my first device (not counting cockrings) back in 1975/6 - “The Chartham Method” - remember that one? (I think you can still buy it today although I believe Dr Robert Chartham has since been sued over the device.) I tried everything I could think of to enlarge my penis - using multiple cockrings, tying things around my dick and strapping it to my leg, some really stupid stuff using elastic and adhesive tape (you don’t want to know about it!) and in the late ’80s/early ’90s I even used to clip a padlock around my dick - I never knew it had a name, Biker’s Hanger ….. I thought it was only me who was a sick pervert! But still nothing seemed to work - all I did was injured myself. So Tom, I guess the question really is, “Where were you when I needed you back in 1976?” ;)

Cheap shot, Tom! Comments like that could see you enlisted into Thunder’s Spelling Police! :chuckle:

If it wasn’t for your website Tom, I may have never have found Thunder’s, and for that I thank you most sincerely. However, your signature line is starting to sound uncomfortably appropriate. Take care ……. and never believe your own publicity! ;)
lil1 :lep:

Groa,

Thanks, I need to remember that hanging has but so many ‘absolutes’ that need to be remembered and is instead an issue of comfort and preference when respecting the few reigning safety principles.

Hope everybody’s happy now.

Tom,

IMO, in the process your behavior has been rude, insensitive, self serving, and highly inappropriate at times.

If you want specifics no problem, but I for one am tried of your behavior. This forum was here before you showed up and it will be here long after your gone. And why people continue to pat you on the back and say “at a boy” and let you get away with more shit than any one is puzzling to me. Yes your site is awesome,highly informative and well put together, however doe that warrent your behavior?

IMO, the homemade bib is a better product than the AFB, and the current BIB is light years away from 3 rubber bands and a couple of tooth brushs :>) .

I THINK YOUR DESIGN IS BASED ON HIDING YOUR RIG MORE THAN GROWING YOUR DICK.

And before you go off on your ” where were you in 1909” line if I’m not mistaken didn’t you take 5 or 6 years off for active PE ?

The purpose of this forum is to share information in order to accomplish the goal of making your dick bigger. Not to belittle the new members,or the other products that don’t invovle your interests. And when someone steps out of line to often regardless of who, the hammer… eh lightning bolt has to come
down.

And just for the record, try and avoid the urge to pack up your site and disappering like you did last time someone said something that you didn’t like about your behavior. Your input into this forum has the potential to be invaluable but your actions are taking away from this potential.

Here’s another pharse that you may want to consider …..

“Pride Before the Fall”

That ‘s all for now, my dog, he just ran down stairs with my BIB,… shit I hate when that happens.

Tom,

>Bigger, I did try the suggestions you made, and found the adjustments didn’t work for me. Perhaps my penis is too small, or perhaps since I didn’t have a hundred bucks invested, I wasn’t as patient as other guys. <

That is not what you said at the time. You admitted you did not do any adjustments. Perhaps you did not give it a chance because you started making your own changes to make it look the way you thought it should. If you wish, I can post your emails with the dates, etc. Only takes a few minutes and is very interesting.

>I didn’t mean to attack you, but Lil’s comments were so out of line…the Bib is the most "singley intelligent solution" to PE…can we have some feedback on that comment from an aspiring PEer in Malaysia, Egypt, India or Belarus…? Or perhaps Spain or Germany? <

lil’s comments out of line? Now I am pissed. Would you please reconcile your thoughts with this post:

http://www.pefo rum.net/forum/s … s=&threadid=270

or

***Tom Hubbard’s opinion of the Bib Hanger***

or with any of your email comments

There are many Bibs in Spain and Germany. Really it is just common sense, if they could get a computer, they could probably have gotten a Bib.

Either you were abducted by aliens, changed medication, or perhaps there is another reason for your comments? You still have not explained your earlier non-lil related negative stabs at the Bibs.

>It will be interesting to see how the AFB shakes out. I don’t recall the earliest Bib designs, other than those that used hose clamps, which is perhaps as dangerous an idea as you can get (I know: I’ve experimented with them, too). <

The simple and modified Bibs were something that I could explain that were relatively safe. Many guys safely gained a lot with them. I originally posted them in ‘98 and refined them with drawings on the newer boards.

There was no reason to post the other developments until the final hanger design was finished. Please do not lose sight of the fact that the only reason the Bibs ever were produced was because the board members ASKED me to make them.

>My reference to endless email correspondence was in error - I was thinking of the tens of thousands of words you’ve given people in the forums, concerning adjusting this screw and that screw. You did dismiss my concern about ‘head twist’ as I recall, but I do not save old emails, so if you did have a solution my apologies for giving you grief.<

I did not dismiss the head twist. I gave you specific instructions on how to limit or stop it. Can you remember your one line email asking "what are skids"? In fact, there has not been one single report of a Bib causing an upward curve in an erection because of hanging slightly upturned.

>The extensive support you give is great, and I’m sure much appreciated. I certainly don’t intend to spend as many words telling people how to adjust the AFB. You can see in the video it takes me about three seconds, and if it’s really bad, I take it off, reattach it and try again, or in the worst case re-wrap, which adds about a minute. I think most guys will ‘get it’ in about a dozen tries, and if they don’t, I’ll encourage them to give it two dozen. <

Tom, I have already had many, many emails asking me to produce more Bibs because guys cannot get the AFB to work. Of course, they probably have many of the same problems that I had with a similar design years ago. Not all penii are the same.

You understand the way the AFB is supposed to work. However, you only have experience using it with ONE penis, I assume. There are many things that work for me, that did not work for others. That is one reason it took so long to develope the Bib. It never hurts to try and see things from the point of view of others.

Bigger

Tom, I am one of the Bib users in Spain. To be honest, BIB, I don’t think there are currently many others.

Why do I have a BIB? I first tried hanging with the swimcap, thanks to Tom’s site. I liked the feel and thought there had to be an easier way - shit I had trouble rolling the damn thing on and off. Not being a great handy man, and following the BIB progess on EZboard, I thought it would be good for me, and it is. I have had some problems with the wrap, but as yet haven’t even purchased theraband in an attempt to rectify the problem. Normally I have a comfortable hang.

So what happens when the BIB wears out? Of course, I will turn to Tom’s page and get to work on a simple AFB hanger. If it doesn’t work, I’ll have to find another solution. Maybe buy another BIB. By not working I mean not the concept, but my lack of resolve in getting the darn thing right.

Tom, you are definitely up there in the PE hall of fame. You make many good points, but why this sudden change of attitude? You say you have travelled extensively so you will know that there will be people who, even if it is proved that the BIB is dangerous for the health (pure supposition of course), will still go to the end of the world to get one. And many others who will scorn at the AFB without ever having tried it. Contructive criticism is one thing, if you want to go deeper I am sure you can find more subtle ways of doing so.

The same people who are resourceful enough to try to make their own hanger wouldn’t first ask questions in the forum?

Tom,

>The same people who are resourceful enough to try to make their own hanger wouldn’t first ask questions in the forum?<

What, and be castigated for a lack of imagination, perseverance, intellegence? Either that or they do not wish to post on a public forum. The main point is they wanted a better hanger.

Would you please address the other points above?

BTW, at least a couple have asked questions that I can identify.

Bigger

I have just logged on (and must quickly log off - my wife’s computer) to delete my last post. I think we need to talk about some of this stuff in private - you and other moderators - and I will be in contact tomorrow morning (EST). We need to stop this pissing contest that I pretty much started.

To go behind closed doors with this is disappointing. This interchange was becoming truly educational.

Moth

OK, forget it - no PM.

I was just going to say that my solution to the emerging flame war is to simply end it. The only bit of astrology I pay much attention to is retrograde mercury, and we are in such a period now. I simply shouldn’t have swallowed the bait lil threw out.

I’ve deleted the offensive parts of my posts.