A glimpse into my head (the one above my shoulders)

luv,

>But, you can be sure that a lot of guys read this thread exactly the way I did. I don’t like to see all this strife between you guys.
It seems unnecessary. <

I agree. That is why it seemed time for resolution, which can only occur with communication.

>Bib. I admire you for your dedication to your product and to your customers and hangers in general. I understand that your hangers are no longer in production, perhaps it is reasonable for Tom to promote his design to help fill the gap for would be hangers. <

I agree. That is why I have advised guys to build Tom’s hangers.

>But I do agree with Bib that there are certain guys that don’t have the time resources or talent to fashion thier own hanger so it is fair game for Bib to go after this market. <

Bib never went after any market. I produced hangers because guys on PEforums asked me to. If I had it to do over, I would have told them to fuck off and forget about it.

You see, all of the ideas concerning this type of hanging have been written about over the last three years or so. The first things mentioned about the prototype Bib hanger were the lateral compression, rather than a circular compression, and the lack of pressure on the top of the penis, especially behind the head. Also, the increased amount of circulation. That was the prime purpose of the hangers. Seanjacobs, Phat, Soma, and many others can verify this.

Tom has taken the basics of the ideas, and turned it into something that anyone can use. I verified to him in emails that the analogy of the hand principle is what I used in designing my hanger. I have always had a tough time explaining how to build anything, or how it works. Tom is exceptional in this regard. So his coming up with ways to put together a cheap, workable hanger is simply magnificent and unique and should be hailed.

Had I been able to put it together in my mind, and explain the instructions for building one for free, I would have done so. I simply do not have the talent that Tom does.

Having said all that, there are some problems with the design, and I imagine this is the reason some guys are having problems with it. The old everyone is different, no two penis’ are alike. It has to do with pivot points, etc.

It is true that designs very close to the AFB were tried by me during ‘99. They did evolve over time into the Bib. To say that the AFB is a refinment is simply absurd. I have always supported Tom, and the AFB. My questions are simply concerning why he has attacked the Bib, when his impetus and a certain knowledge came in a couple of little brown boxes, given freely.

Bigger

I believe you’re thinking about the Jelq sticks. (I hope you’re thinking about the jelq sticks…) consider the url that is the basis of this thread - why would I turn the design 90 degrees afer making the observations I illustrate?

As for the jelq sticks, I’m less concerned than some about whether they go top and bottom or side and side because the contact is momentary, not prolonged as in a hanger.

Could be Tom, I get things wrong a lot of times. I could have swore that your first dev01.gif showed the hanger mounted top and bottom and after someone commented on it, you rotated it 90 degrees. But like I said, I get a lot of things fucked up. Good to see the site back too!

Actually, my astrologer friends tell me there’s much more problematic stuff going on - Saturn and Uranus, I believe (I’m not kidding). (I couldn’t get through on your linked URLs; maybe they mention it.)

Not the end-all-be-all for me, but useful as a map of reality that has some identifiable features. Mercury Rx has always snuck up and nailed me, so it’s the only astrological thing that has me scratching my otherwise skeptical head.

Retrograde doesn’t mean the planet slows down - it means it apparently reverses direction in the sky relative to everything around it.

2002 Mercury
Retrograde Periods

• January 18th, 2002 through February 8th, 2002

• May 15th, 2002 through June 8th, 2002

• September 14th, 2002 through October 6th, 2002

Mercury is said to be in retrograde motion when, due to our relative orbits around the Sun, parallax view causes it to back up in our sky.

Mercury has rulership of communication and transportation. This covers just about everything in one way or another. When Mercury is retrograde all things having to do with communication and transportation are prone to snafu and breakdown. You will notice during Mercury retros that the incidence of traffic light malfunctions, telephone service interruptions, lost and mishandled messages, general misunderstanding of information, missed connections and other problems in travel, and every other imaginable kind of trouble in these areas rises dramatically.

Try to avoid signing legal documents and opening new businesses during these periods. If it absolutely can’t be avoided then go ahead. But be aware that there will almost certainly have to be renegotiation and new beginnings at a later date and be prepared to deal with that.

The way to handle these periods is to allow extra time for everything. Try to anticipate where problems are likely to occur and plan for dealing with them. The most important thing is to keep a good attitude. These periods occur three or four times a year for three weeks at a time. We’ve all lived through many of them in the past. They are annoying and frustrating but they always go away. You may want to watch these periods for a couple weeks on either side, especially right after one, for the shadow to pass and the planet to pick up speed.

Bib and I disagree on what “intelligent” and “refined” mean because we have taken different paths, his toward a unique and patentable device that he alone has the right or ability to make, mine toward something anyone can make, any time, anywhere in the world, with a variety of common materials and requiring only simple instructions.

For him (and a few affluent men in Western countries with credit cards), “intelligent and refined” means complicated and exclusive. For me, “intelligent and refined” means simple and practical, in the sense that an engineer will refer to a design as “elegant.”

He’s reached the pinnacle of achievement: he has a perfect design, and damn near all the answers. And nowhere to go. What you see him doing now is technical support and filling orders, and not being sure he wants to follow through on the business plan he apparently formulated below the level of conscious awareness (or admission).

I’m ready to scrap any design the moment I find something I think (that day) is better. And I do: the loop, the swim cap, the Bib hanger. I’m a little reckless. My creativity is not controlled and predictable. I still do this simply because it’s fun, which is how I think Bib started out. It’s a great creative exercise: building, illustrating, how-to writing.

And funny at times. Yes, the toothbrushes are funny - the same way I hope some of you see that the “F” in AFB is funny - my way of trying not to take myself too seriously. I thought of naming this latest hanger after myself, but you can see the danger in that: at this point, when I say “Bib,” am I referring to the person or the device? And are the two so intertwined now that any criticism of the hanger is de facto a criticism of the person?

=====

If I have a history of putting a chip on Lil’s shoulder, I’m not aware of it. I think he’s gotten it on his own. In fact, before this thread I only recognized him because of his distinctive avatar.

=====

I don’t recall the exact chronology of the wrapping, and it was wrong of me to imply that I developed the idea. I saw the drawings at a time (I believe) when I still had no use for wrapping, and paid little mind to them. I “discovered” the two-layer wrap while trying to figure how to make the AFB hanger better simulate the “stickiness” of flesh (as in fingers), after wrapping it in latex. I’m still undecided, but it sure seems that with no limit on materials and expense, you shouldn’t need the same wrap for a $100 hanger that you can use to hang ten pounds with two toothbrushes. And I have no idea why that mind-boggling wrapping thread remains pinned to the top of this forum when the essence of it can be captured with a 5k graphic and fewer than 25 words or - if you really don’t get it - about 10 seconds of video. But I’m not the moderator.

Bib/Bigger has made fantastic contributions, and the Bib hanger is a beautiful accomplishment, and certainly unique. I credit him 100% for getting me active and hanging again; he is truly an inspiration.

At the same time, the Bib Hanger is history, literally, as soon as he stops making it.

So how do we move forward together?

I, for one, am a little surprised that a guy who delights in lengthy explanations should throw out this cursory dismissal: “Having said all that, there are some problems with the [AFB] design, and I imagine this is the reason some guys are having problems with it. The old everyone is different, no two penis’ are alike. It has to do with pivot points, etc.”

Etc?

You asked why I was throwing out vague negatives about the Bib hanger. Specifically I abandoned it because I was not willing to accept that it requires (at least in the case of my dimensions) substantial wrapping to achieve the girth that will make it function the way it appears to be designed - with the pivot point on the bottom. In fact, without a lot of padding (wrapping), the tightest part is on the top, where the clamps converge. This is not necessary, and occurs only because so much space is built into the hinge area. This is why I said it was “upside down:” I was uncomfortable with the amount of pressure I experienced in the dorsal region, and recognized that wouldn’t happen if I could wear it upside-down (which I couldn’t). I tried removing the nuts on the bottom screws, removing the metal plates, even filing down the plastic to bring the hinges closer together and make it more suitable for my not-quite-donkey dick…without a wrap. (That, btw, constitutes a helluva lot of “adjustment.”) I could have avoided all the problem with a wrap at least 1 cm thick.

At this point I like the wrap idea. It’s reinforced my hunch that the only reason a person would need plastic is to rig a hanger out of toothbrushes or other household plastic item. And I may change my position on that tomorrow, so stay tuned, OK?

It’s true that no two penises are alike, and I see my folly in trying to identify one approach - wood, plastic, toothbrush - as the best. You can make it as big or as small as you want, and you can make the space at the hinge as big or as small as you want, and eventually you may be able to hang 30 pounds, though I don’t know whether that’s a good idea or not.

I'm sure that subject has at least 10,000 words devoted to it somewhere in here…but I'm not going to read them right now, OK?

If all else, fails, simply pull. That’s worked for a few people through history.

1) If you pull it, it will grow.
2) If it hurts, you’re doing it wrong.
3) If you do nothing, you will get no results.
4) If you think you need someone else to do it for you, you’re wrong.

Tell me more about Mercury in Uranus! Is that like when someone has an accident with a leaky rectal thermometer…………That would explain a lot of things! :chuckle:

lil1 :-pink:

Tom,

>Bib and I disagree on what “intelligent” and “refined” mean because we have taken different paths, his toward a unique and patentable device that he alone has the right or ability to make, mine toward something anyone can make, any time, anywhere in the world, with a variety of common materials and requiring only simple instructions. <

I see. Shall we debate the meaning of each word we have to use? So any time someone has to spend money for anything, it is a step backward? Do you generate your own electricity? Make your own toilet paper? Build your own car or bicycle? How about your own clothes? If so, are all of these items better than what you can purchase?

>For him (and a few affluent men in Western countries with credit cards), “intelligent and refined” means complicated and exclusive. For me, “intelligent and refined” means simple and practical, in the sense that an engineer will refer to a design as “elegant.” <

So, it appears the debate will devolve into a discussion of the merits of different economic systems. Nah, too easy.

The obvious point however, is that the medium used to deliver either the knowledge (AFB) or product (Bib) require a computer. The number of computers in western societies far outnumber those in undeveloped countries. Therefore, the westerners will naturally have more access TO EITHER SYSTEM. Once again, if a guy can afford a computer, he can probably afford a Bib. Or are you going to put up instructions on how to build a computer so that guys in Karachi can get AFB instructions?

>He’s reached the pinnacle of achievement: he has a perfect design, and damn near all the answers. And nowhere to go. What you see him doing now is technical support and filling orders, and not being sure he wants to follow through on the business plan he apparently formulated below the level of conscious awareness (or admission). <

I am so pleased that you are able to see inside my head. Had you been around the forums for the last several years, you would not have had to make this supposition. It would have been clear that there was no ‘business plan’. The vast majority of guys who have gained using a hanger have done so with the simple or modified Bibs. Not the production models. For years, the homemade versions were about the only hanging devices talked about. Once again, there are thousands of guys who can attest to this.

>I thought of naming this latest hanger after myself, but you can see the danger in that: at this point, when I say “Bib,” am I referring to the person or the device? And are the two so intertwined now that any criticism of the hanger is de facto a criticism of the person? <

Of course it is, since it is the product of the work and knowledge of that person. Duh.

>If I have a history of putting a chip on Lil’s shoulder, I’m not aware of it. I think he’s gotten it on his own. In fact, before this thread I only recognized him because of his distinctive avatar.<

Judging by the amount of communication this thread has generated, you have put a chip on many shoulders. Including your own.

>And I have no idea why that mind-boggling wrapping thread remains pinned to the top of this forum when the essence of it can be captured with a 5k graphic and fewer than 25 words or - if you really don’t get it - about 10 seconds of video. But I’m not the moderator. <

Please forgive me. I admit fully my lack of clarity in explanations or graphics. I did the wrapping drawings and pinned the thread to the top of the section because I was asked to. You can certaintly replace it at any time.

>Bib/Bigger has made fantastic contributions, and the Bib hanger is a beautiful accomplishment, and certainly unique. I credit him 100% for getting me active and hanging again; he is truly an inspiration. <

Please forgive me if, after reading the rest of this thread and your other writings, I do not believe the above paragraph.

>At the same time, the Bib Hanger is history, literally, as soon as he stops making it. <

What? You mean all the ones that are currently in use immediately exploded when I stopped production? How is it ‘history’.

>I, for one, am a little surprised that a guy who delights in lengthy explanations should throw out this cursory dismissal: “Having said all that, there are some problems with the [AFB] design, and I imagine this is the reason some guys are having problems with it. The old everyone is different, no two penis’ are alike. It has to do with pivot points, etc.”

Etc? <

Ok. Let’s roll. The problem is with weight application, and the resulting affect on the penis. With the lateral compression system, you need two halves which come together. They should be able to place pressure evenly along the shaft to supply the maximum amount of comfort. However, if a single weight attachment point is used, and attempting to pull on both halves equally, a force is produced which tends to pull the FRONT of the device inward resulting in a greater compression on the front edge of the hanger, and little or no compression on the rear of the device. This is the pivot point I referred to and can create a lot of discomfort for most guys.

The hand example shows this better than anything. The hand with all the supporting structures to the bones, does not allow the fingers/thumb to pivot. They remain static in relation to each other as more force is applied.

The are two answers for this. Either have two weight attachment points, one for each half, pulling straight and with equal force. Or, FIX the two halves to where when adjusted properly, they are static in relation to each other, even when a single weight attachment point is used.

That is the reason for the complicated stuff concerning the hinge on the Bib. You were incorrect in thinking the mending braces were spacers. They are to make the hinge stronger, so the two halves remain static under great stress. The hinge used is the tightest I could find. Less play, so that when under stress, no movement. Same with the adjustment hex nuts on the inside of the right half. They allow the right half to be ‘fixed’ with the outer wing nuts so there is little or no movement.

Not only lengths and girths are different. The actual consistancy of penis’ is apparantly different. Some are more ‘fluid’ than others. Water vs gristle maybe. Without a supporting wrap and without the static hanger, many penis’ will simply ‘flow’ through an AFB hanger design, or will stop only at the glans.

Now, if you can make an AFB with the two halves remaining static under stress, it will help a lot. There are other problems involved, but the above is enough for now.

>You asked why I was throwing out vague negatives about the Bib hanger. Specifically I abandoned it because I was not willing to accept that it requires (at least in the case of my dimensions) substantial wrapping to achieve the girth that will make it function the way it appears to be designed - with the pivot point on the bottom. In fact, without a lot of padding (wrapping), the tightest part is on the top, where the clamps converge. This is not necessary, and occurs only because so much space is built into the hinge area. This is why I said it was “upside down:” I was uncomfortable with the amount of pressure I experienced in the dorsal region, and recognized that wouldn’t happen if I could wear it upside-down (which I couldn’t). I tried removing the nuts on the bottom screws, removing the metal plates, even filing down the plastic to bring the hinges closer together and make it more suitable for my not-quite-donkey dick…without a wrap. (That, btw, constitutes a helluva lot of “adjustment.”) I could have avoided all the problem with a wrap at least 1 cm thick. <

There is a lot to respond to here, so bear with me. First, in general, how can you reconcile this with your review of the hanger. You wrote the review after about a month of use. Then, you proceeded to destroy the hanger(s), then changed your opinion? This is at best, odd.

>In fact, without a lot of padding (wrapping), the tightest part is on the top, where the clamps converge. This is not necessary, and occurs only because so much space is built into the hinge area. <

The hanger was designed to place the greatest stress on the sides of the tougher, upper two chambers (not the top of the penis), and keep from placing too much stress on the lower chamber and urethra. In fact, these contact areas are about the only areas that do not have integral nerves, veins, plumbing, which could be easily damaged. This is why the front thumbs are beveled out, and the other fingers are beveled in.

>I could have avoided all the problem with a wrap at least 1 cm thick.<

Additional wraping would possibly have helped, but I doubt anyone would ever need 1 cm. The regular hanger has only a 3/4 inch gap, and the Starter has a 3/8 inch gap.

Once again, I think you were attempting to simply use the hangers at first, and liked it. Then, when you tried to change it to make it better and were unsuccessful, you became upset. Then tried to make your own since you destroyed the original.

>At this point I like the wrap idea. It’s reinforced my hunch that the only reason a person would need plastic is to rig a hanger out of toothbrushes or other household plastic item. And I may change my position on that tomorrow, so stay tuned, OK? <

Yes, many of us have been doing a lot with wrap for quite a while. Not just hanging.

>I’m sure that subject has at least 10,000 words devoted to it somewhere in here…but I’m not going to read them right now, OK? <

Well, it might save a lot of problems if you did a lot of reading. There are many original ideas on the two boards. Myself and others can attest to the fact that PE has come a long way since I found your sight in the summer of ‘98.

Bigger

Well I will be honest and say that I only read the last few posts, but I will throw something in. Bib, I think your product is a fantastic design and it seems to be extremely wonderful for the clients you have sold to. I am wondering if you are interested in pursuing a continuous production of the Bib Hanger and Bib Starter, as I may have a few investors who are willing to possibly rocket your design into a multi-millionare device. From the posts I have been reading for the past few months, your hanger and website have been the most fair and honest I have seen in a while, and to attest to it are the many happy and sitisfied customers you have had. Let me know if you have put any thought into making this device available to the millions.

I apologize if this post is not appropriate for the forum.

Yes, truly educational.

Moth

**spews water onto monitor**

First, I respect Tom and his gadget. Totally based on engineering from Bib’s research and
development, it is functional and OK for some guys, though it doesn’t work for uncuts like
me. I guess the “free” device is what any good card carrying SOCIALIST would prefer over greed
driven products from dead-labor-killing, bouergeous CAPITALISTS in the market driven economy
of the USA. Such filthy, grave-robbing capitalists like Bib who innovate new products should be chastised I guess.

The problem with Bib’s hanger is that he is selling it for HUNDREDS of dollars less than it is
worth in the marketplace of supply and demand. Supply and demand are real whether
Tom H likes it or not. The capialized value of the Bib, given his time, trial and error R&D
engineering innovations, and huge capital costs, is at least $500 per unit, and that would
be a bargain.

The bottom is this: Bib is ALREADY giving his product away folks. It is so underpriced as to
be laughable, and I have told Bib this many times and he is well aware of the disparity. But
Bib’s heart is much bigger than his dick and he wanted to “break even” or even less, so that
guys could afford it. I applaud Bib and everyone else should too. IT is the biggest
“bargain” I know of, especially when you look at the price of substitutes like surgery,
the grip, circle device, penistecher, etc…….. And none of them except surgery itself works
as well as the Bib, and hey, even surgery requires extensive hanging with a device like the Bib.
It is recommended by the Barrow Clinic!!!!!!!!!

I am not sure what planet the solar system is in today, but that was apt.

Back to the Hubbard hanger— it is a nice and cheap device that even Bib himself
has recommended time and time on this very board. What is the beef?

But, there is one teeny technical problem that makes the Hubbard design flawed, even if it is
of SOCIALIST invention. Pun intened.

One cannot do BTC hanging on the edge of a bed with the Hubbard sticks, as I do 100% of
the time, because the darned “sticks” will hit the bed, interfering with a comfy hang and totally
preventing any weight swinging at all. The whole idea of extreme BTC hanging is to swing the
weights, and I do it violently. One cannot with the stick design. For other hanging, the Hubbard
sticks are fine, provided one is cut.

With the Bib, I can hang any poundage of weight and swing vigorously from side to
side until the cows come home. The “twisting” complaint is unwarranted after over a year of Bib
hanging. I am uncut.

Since the dark tone of this senseless string distresses me so, I will stop here.

But I have more to say later. We are all free to our individual political beliefs but this
should not lead to a sensless war of words between two GURUS and founding PE fathers. I
understand this sillyness has even led to a “poll”, “how is right, Bib or Tom. Are we being
reduced to the absurd here?

Tom, I am very disappointed in you. I see vanity and jealousy, in addition to underlying
political leanings, behind this shit. You can flame away at me because it will just roll off
my teflon.

I just wanted to inject some technical practicality into this petty diatribe of personalities
and politics that has no place on a board like this.

>I understand this sillyness has even led to a "poll", "how is right, Bib or Tom. Are we being reduced to the absurd here? <

are you refering to Which Hanger works best?

I put this poll together independantly of Bib or Tom.
I respect both Bib and Tom for their hard work and appreciate both of them.

If you want to flame my poll, I would appreciate if you flamed it directly, through the thread, and not hide it among a different thread. By all means flame my email address as well, as I have it posted openly on my profile.

But know this:

There is no tie between this thread and the poll I posted. They are completely independant of themselves.

I personally feel we should all just shut up and close this thread right here and now, as it is displaying true negative emotions through and through.

Damn people lets just get along and help eachother and help future PErs who will come across this site in the years to come, lets learn some humility here.

Here we’re in complete agreement. But when I deleted my negative comments, I was chastised for it making this sick thread look “odd.” I don’t think I got around to suggesting the so-called “moderators” moderate their comments, because of running into the posting time limit.

Tom,

>Here we’re in complete agreement. But when I deleted my negative comments, I was chastised for it making this sick thread look “odd.”<

It does. Why delete what you have written, unless you made an error, and wish to correct it? Did you not mean the things you have said?

>I don’t think I got around to suggesting the so-called “moderators” moderate their comments, because of running into the posting time limit.<

Joke, right?

So is this it? No more resolution? Just let it go? I have always had tremendous respect and admiration for the things you have done. You have helped thousands of guys in one of the most personal aspects of their lives. That will never change.

But the actions and words you have placed on this board lately have taken away a lot of the personal respect I had for you.

Bigger