Collagen Considered

I don’t know about how toxic DMSO is. I just know back the early 80’s it was used as the ultimate muscle rub. I used it and it worked wonders. You could really feel it going through your skin and straight into your muscles (not literally, but it did feel like it traveled into your muscles within 5 minutes). I stopped using it because I always got a chemical/garlic taste in the back of my mouth, every time I used it. I thought, “rub it on my muscles, taste it in my mouth, somethings wrong”. Although back then I was probably not using the pure stuff (pharma grade). That might work without the bad taste.

I haven’t read through this thread yet, but I’ll add something I think might be helpful.

Injecting testosterone reduces collagen synthesis but up to 80%. Also weakening collagen cross linking.

Growth hormone, primobolan, anavar , EQ and deca increase collagen synthesis by about as much and increase crosslinking strength.

The drug PGE-1 causes collagen fibres to unlinked on some basis, this is basis for the chemical pe patent.

Not sure if weakening or strengthening collagen is the best thing to do with this.

What are you guys trying to get collagen to do?

Perhaps one could try a short acting testosterone like suspension, to weaken the collagen, or a drug like pge-1 to weaken the collagen,

Then use a drug like igf-1 directly into the penis to promote recovery

I’ll read this thread later as I’m interested I’m just shooting stuff out to restart the thread and so I don’t forget.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good — they increase several biomakers of collagen syn — ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want — an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% — less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% — slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting it’s effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner — the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I’ve read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

More collagen, easier to deform

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

One of my gaols is to steer clear of systemic dosing if I can, but these are definitely worth thinking about, Rason. Thanks for giving me even more research to do.

Post cycle clomid usage makes me a little nervous, to be honest. I’m guessing that your experience in body building has given you an honorary degree in biochemistry. This little experiment sounds like it could be very expensive too.

Thinking…

If you have some impurity on your skin and apply DMSO it will go straight into your blood stream and can make you sick/kill you.

That’s is probably true based on what I have read about DMSO. I have never read about DMSO related deaths, but there is that possibility of a indirect contribution to demise.

Cleanliness is very important prior to application, and I have included iodine in my ointment design to help abate any potential invaders. All ingredients must be pure and pharma grade. In addition, the ointments must be mixed in small batches so that they can be completely used in less than three days and stored in a refrigerator. This will cut down on possible contamination.

Bite on this…
Effects of prostaglandin E1 on collagen production and degradation in
human fetal lung fibroblasts.

Barile FA, Ripley-Rouzier C, Siddiqi ZE, Bienkowski RS.

Department of Natural Sciences, York College of the City University of
New York, Jamaica 11451.

We examined the effects of prostaglandin E1 on the production and
degradation of collagen in human fetal lung fibroblasts. Percentage
collagen production was determined by incubating confluent cultures
for 6 h with [3H]proline and either [14C]glycine or [14C]leucine and
measuring the relative amounts of radioactivity incorporated into
collagenase-sensitive and collagenase-insensitive material. Percentage
collagen degradation was determined by measuring hydroxy[14C]proline
in a low-molecular-weight fraction relative to total
hydroxy[14C]proline. Prostaglandin E1, when present at a concentration
as low as 0.25 micrograms/ml, reduced net collagen production by a
factor of one-half, from 8 +/- 2 to 4 +/- 1% (P less than 0.05). In
contrast, the change in percentage degradation was relatively gradual,
rising steadily from the control value of 15 +/- 2 to 33 +/- 2% at 4
micrograms/ml (P less than 0.05). The increase in degradation, while
significant, could not account for the total decrease in collagen
production. We conclude that prostaglandin E1 exerts its inhibitory
effect on collagen production in two essentially independent ways:
lowering the rate of synthesis and increasing intracellular
degradation. However, the decrease in synthesis is greater than the
increase in degradation.
Rason

Do you want to break your collagen to break down easier?
Use PGE-1
Do you want your collagen to recover faster afterwards?
Use IGF-1
Or one of the other drugs i mentioned above.

Relaxing tissue will not be enough to counter-act the effects of tissue strengthening.(it could however be helpful).

Collagen sysnthesis is mostly determined by homeostasis(hormones), few topical treatments are going to have any effect i’m afraid.

I am personally going to be taking up a routine early next year, with growth hormones ,steroids and Pge-1.

This will last the entire year and look something like this:

Months 1-12 HGH 10 Iu Eod.
Months 1,3,5,7,9,11 IGF 60 Mcg eod.
Months 1-12 Cabergoline And Letrozole.
Months-1-12 Caverject Dose Undecided.

Just a prelim i’ll be designing my cycle over christmas.

Over my years i’ve tried every bodybuilding supplement under the sun.
What i learned was that nothing beats the real deal, drugs, and i belive it’s the same with P.e.
Try your vitamins and weak relaxing agents, you won’t be able to atain th effect your looking for on collagen any other way than with drugs.
Just as bodybuilders, want to promote hypertrophy through use of muscle breakdown and anabolism.

We want the same with collagen, but collagen is a different animal and we need drugs to actually achieve satisfactory breakdown for growth. With muscle just lift heavier weight.

This is just my view and i’m going to put it into practise asap.

Take a look at the chemical p.e thread, that guy got 0.5 inch in a month. With the drugs he’s using i can believe.

I’ve got some more ideas on this but i want to get a discussion going.

Rason

Well, I suppose one man’s “drugs” are another man’s “ointments”.

I am currently doing a lot of research on IGF-1 Long R3 (the binding protein is key). This stuff is mondo expensive. I can get 5 kits (minimum order) for about $1,650 US. There IS a point where the “vitamins and weak relaxing agents” start to look pretty good by comparison.

I have no interest in hGH alone, nor do I really care to get gynomastia. Most of what I am talking about in this thread is barely informed conjecture…before I use ANYTHING I want to know enough about it to teach the subject at the university level. In that respect, the Internet is a dangerous place to be getting my best information.

I like most of what I am learning about IGF-1 within reason. I am quite nervous about what effects it may have on my precious liver and unwanted effects in other areas. It is VERY expensive; right now, prohibitively so. I would also prefer that the active agents I am using for PE could be administered transdermally rather than by injecting. If I must inject, I will seriously consider it, but only after learning everything I can first. Insulin needles do not really hurt that much after all.

I am also keen on PGE-1, but again, it is difficult to acquire (but easier than IGF-1 I assume). I understand most of how it works when used to stimulate erection, and I have read some about it’s effects on collagen. I know it was listed among the active agents in the patent discussed in the Chemical PE thread.

Today, I am considering reducing my proposed regimen from three different ointments to only two. I think I will need one for loosening the interlinking collagen bonds while in my Inflammation Phase. Then I will need one to support mitosis and the development of new collagen bonds during proliferation and remodelling. I am beginning to think that proliferation and remodelling are two sides of the same coin…perhaps not distinct phases like we have discussed in the recent past. Some Remodelling occurs during Proliferation and some proliferation occurs during remodelling. One depends on the other. Inflammation sets the process moving on a larger scale than routine maintenance of living tissue.

What if I have been viewing the PE model backwards?

What if we need to build up collagen BEFORE we shock the system with our PE?
I am not yet willing to test this…but talking about it might be a good idea.

When I realized that most rapid gains happen at the beginning of a PE career…I thought perhaps this was partially due to the fact that the body was in good shape prior to inflammation and had the resources in reserve for rapid collagen repair & remodelling. Once PE had gone on for a while these reserves were depleted and the net effect was that the body was only able to repair the tissue as it was damaged. No additional gains were achieved.

This may explain why some here find themselves able to break a plateau after they take a lengthy de-conditioning break.

Anyway, I am down to two ointments. Still prefer the idea of trans-dermal application, and I will initially try ingredients that I can readily get my hands on.

Over many years of my ‘bodybuilding career’ I have learned similar. What is required in bodybuilding are three things:
-good training
-good ‘food’(including supplements)
-rest

I would argue if drugs are always needed-it depends on your target…if you are PRO and you are going for ‘Mr Olympia’ you will need drugs(‘Deca’,’Primo’ and so on ;) ). However if your target is only to be ‘good looking’(far better than average) you can achieve it without drugs. There are many really good supplements thanks to which almost everyone can build body similar to some extend to Brad Pitt(for body like Ronnie Coleman DecaDurabolan required;) )

I believe that what we are really missing in PE is the second part, which is ‘Good Food’(supplements). Also here I believe that there are things that can help us without using ‘drugs’. Good luck in finding ‘missing link’ guys!

IGF-1 1mg $120
PGE-1 1mg $16
Dose For Both 20/1000mg 0.0020mg 20mcg per day
Don’t work out that expensive does it? And i assure you both can be obtained zero risk easily.
Hgh is something i’m taking on my own back unrelated to P.e, Pm me and i’ll tell you more…
Gyno is not a risk what so ever in modern gear use, both aromatase inhibitors and selective estrogen receptor modulators are dirty cheap, so is gear but i don’t have any online sources for that for you, got to find someone near you.
Hgh and Anabolic Steroids, would be if anything a detrement to this program however, just focus on PGE-1 And IGF-1.
“It’s always been a fantasy of mine to reduce complex designs to tape and paperclips.”
Don’t over complicate all this for yourself, just focus on key principles.
Breakdown, Repair.
PGE-1, IGF-1

Gains slow because the tissue adapt to become more resistant, remove the force it’s resisting for long enough and the body will become weaker, it won’t keep up the production/renewal of all that extra collagen if it can get away with it.

It’s like a well conditioned boxer, my mate used to be able to punch a brick wall in rapid succession without any pain or damage.
He gave up the sport and can’t hit it with anywhere near the same force without significant pain.

The body adapts to any stresses put on it, remove the stress remove the adaptation. That’s why de-conditioning work.

I still think these drugs are going to be the way, theirs already a patent on both of them being used in P.e.

To top that off there’s a guy using igf and pge who’s gained half an inch in a month on this forum.

Supplements really arn’t all that imporant in building mate, just diet, training and rest as you say. Obviosuly the key thing in bbing is protein, need alot and i use a protein shake regulary along with my diet program.

I made a point earlier, i’ve spent alot of money on fat bruners, energy boosters, anabolic formular, multi vitamins, amino acid, you name it. At the end of the day, nothing potensiates the bodies natural processes like drugs do. I could easily spend thousands a month on supplement and have them not have half the effect $100 worth of roids would.

Bodybuilding and P.e really are two different animals. Muscle hypertrophy is alot simpler to achieve over penis enlargement as we’re dealing with two different types of tissue. collagen won’t be effected greatly by weak agents it’s strong tissue.

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