Is there a way of keeping the fluid in the penis after Jelqing

What he said. Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that long term, rational pumping does not necessarily result in a fibroidal conditioning of the penis, nor is the “hyperpigmentation” (discoloration) which some note universal. If fibroidal conditioning were actually occuring, then you would definitely expect a significant number of posts with titles like “my dick is getting hard!” regarding this fibroidal conditioning. Obviously, this isn’t the case, or if it is, I certainly haven’t seen the evidence for it, either in my pants or in the “boards”.

Oh, and to the original poster- cock ring, cock ring, cock ring.

The penis is not ‘designed’ to swell with interstitial fluid any more or less than a leg is. If anything, the comparison is very fair and scientifically precise. The penis, is designed to get engorged with blood not with lympth fluid. Any fluid build up is cleared by the lymphatic vessels much the same way interstitial fluid is cleared anywhere else in the body. Limb Lymphedema is not due to the ‘Limb’s inability to swell up and down frequently and in a relatively short period of time’, but rather due to blockages or trauma caused to the lympathic vessels/system, making them incapable of transporting the fluid back to the blood stream.

Applying a cock ring for long periods of time to impair the natural ability of the body to ‘reabsorb’, as you put it, the fluid into the body is almost exactly the same thing as lymphedema. When I say ‘almost’ exactly the same, the word ‘almost’ is used to differentiate between ability and inability of an individual to naturally absorb the lymph fluid. In one case, the limp pictures shown, the body is incapable and the situation is a known medical condition, while in the other case, the penis filled with interstitial fluid, is induced, and once the external negative pressure of the pump (or cock ring) is removed, the body goes back to its natural mechanism of reabsorbing the fluid.

And fibrosis doesn’t take weeks to initiate, it takes minutes to hours (depending on the conditions). In low flow Priapism, enough fibrosis happens in 24 hours to render the penis permanently dysfunctional. Besides, I don’t think there are any pumpers that can claim gains (if any at all), during the first weeks, even months of pumping. The ‘gains’ MOST pumpers report is a result of years of pumping, and I have yet to see a rigid vascular penis that has been enlarged solely because of lymph buildup in the penis.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts avocet, and I understand you’re a huge advocate of pumping. To each his own, but I felt like addressing this issue as a part of my research on fibrosis.

And where exactly are you getting these… ‘evidence’? Can you link a reference to the studies done indicating such ‘long term’ effects of ‘rational’ penis pumping and its correlation to ‘fibroidal conditioning’? If you do I’d love to read them. Please do post a reference.

First of all, not all Fibrosis are created equal. Dermal and sub dermis fibrosis make the skin, less elastic. In this case, a matrix of random fibrotic collagen bonds are formed by between the Tunica and the subdermis making the surrounding tissues less elastic, and engorgement of the Cavernosa chambers increasingly limited, but not necessarily ‘hard’. Most people wouldn’t feel this reduction in elasticity and would just be happy with the ‘perceived’ gains made. I say perceived because in comparison to other PE methods, pumping is the second most vague in regards to gains made, and the permanency of these gains, with penis enlargement pills/patches taking first place on the podium.

Unfortunately, unlike most other body parts, we only have one penis. It would have been great if we had two penises and if we could have performed PE techniques such as pumping to one and test/compare it with the other and notice even the smallest of changes. Since the differential changes made are so small when considered on a time scale of weeks, our memories work against us, and we deem our penis unchanged, which is why it’s important to frequently take pictures of your unit to monitor for small changes (good or bad). I’ve grown 2 inches in length and more than 1.5 in girth and if it wasn’t for my before and after pictures, I would have sworn that my current size, is the size I was born with. As I said, if you had two identical penises, then, you could have for sure said if you do or do not feel a marked increase or decrease in the elasticity of the tissues. Since MOST of us here on PE boards have just one penis, it’s a fairly difficult task to use our memory of our penis 2 years ago as comparison to the current condition, and furthermore use it as ‘evidence’ to dismiss scientific research regarding an issue.

P.S. This is one reason I think the concept of ‘condom pumping’ must have some merit since it does employ the blood engorgement produced by a pump, but tries to minimize the fluid build up.

While we are asking for references, I would love to read a study about collagen bonds between tunica and subdermis, and limited cavernosa chamber engorgement, caused by interstitial fluid retained after PE exercises.

It’s great to have such smart members here with such interesting theories, but lets remember to propose a theory as a theory.

Well, I have already provided a link stating fibrosis happening in the lymphetic/interstial fluid build up. We also know for a fact that fluid build up is located between the Tunica and subdermis (primary function of such leakage is of course to provide a force against the internal forces acting within the Tunica. I believe the pores on the Tunica allow such fluids to seep out to reach an equilibrium as the internal forces continually are expanding the collagen fibers of the Tunica, and the fluid that is trapped between the skin and the Tunica will help push back on the Tunica and reduce the net force acting on it, hence collapsing it.)

We also know that fibrotic tissue is predominantly Type I collagen, which is very inelastic. It’s now a matter of common sense to put the facts together and conclude that the cavernous engorgement without such fibrotic material would be greater than that of it with such fibrosis present. It’s like arguing whether or not a thin balloon would expand easier than a thicker one.

Other than what I stated above, I don’t have a specific ‘study’ to link. So I hope my logic/conclusion has sufficed.

vkay

Where the hell did this guy come from? ;)

O.K., I’m hearing you. Good stuff bro’, really. I think we’re going to be chewing on some of the stuff you’re saying for awhile.

However, I think there’s truth to what both avocet and you are hitting at- despite the fact that they appear diametric. I think your reply to his point here is astute:

That is, assuming that interstitial fluid IS actually cleared the same way that lymph is- i.e. through mechanical “one way” valves that open and shut based on vessel pressure created by body motion and/or direct pressure- which I’ll give you because you seem to know your shit. If it’s not true then I’m sure someone will call you on it.

So now you’ve established that it’s not “normal” for the penis to hold lymph in the interstitial regions. I’m with you. However, when you say this:

It brings up a thought. While this “Limb Lymphedema” results due to trauma to the lymphatic system/vessels which make them “incapable” of transporting and exchanging their fluid within the bloodstream, does not a healthy cock retain this ability?

Which brings me to how this came up in this thread.

Are you saying that trapping the lymph for more time than the body needs to process it on it’s own is the primary danger regarding fibrosis or are you making a blanket statement regarding pumping and fibrosis?

Myself, I could see more merit in the former than the later. The former statement- that trapping the fluid (with a cock ring or whatnot) could lead to fibrosis by mimicking a condition within the body (as in Limb Lymphedema)wherein the body FAILS TO PROCESS lymph in the healthily preordained way seems to run true to your analysis and hypothesis regarding fibotic conditioning of the penis.

However, in the case of pumping WITHOUT some method being used to trap the fluid, I’m not getting the fibroidal connection, which you seem to be considering yourself when you conceed an interest in the possible benefit of condom pumping.

It seems to me that so long as the body is processing the fluid (and some attempt is being made to minimize it) that pumping need not lead to fibrotic changes any more than it needs to lead to discoloration- something I’ve experienced first hand.

Discoloration, for me is dependant upon one thing and one thing only- i.e. a DEEP AND THOUROUGH WARMUP AND PRE-PE MASSAGE. Without it, I discolor, with it and I’m cool.

regarding this post:

I’m still chewing on it. The main thing I see is that you are making some pretty significant leaps- i.e. just because you “establish” that fibrosis can occur in cases of interstitial buildup does not imply that it is established that such firosis need occur in a dick that’s healthily flushing occasions of such fluid buildup in a timely manner. Now regarding whether or not fibrotic tissue is “less elastic” or less desireable inside of our dicks….well, you’re picking low hanging fruit there, but where exactly have you proven (other than your observation) that such fibrosis is a necessary byproduct of pumping? Or do you even intend to?

Here I’m interested in the experiences of a few long time pumpers who come immediately to mind: gprent? SuperSizeIt? Avocet? Do you feel that you’re not getting the ramrod stiff, vascular woodie once you’ve done all of this pumping for years? Do you feel like your boy is wrapped up in a fibrotic blanket of sorts, a kind of spongy, fibrotic, “double tunica” kind of dealio?

Anyway vaseline_knight, I’m just riffing- exposing the paradigm I’ve been building to yours and seeing how they suss up to one another. And no, I don’t have any links. My only “evidence” would be a lack of evidence. Is that fair, scientifically? I dunno. I would think the lack of people reporting this kind of “fibrotic sheathing” which holds the dick in a straight jacket and hinders gains would’ve been noticed/ reported more if it was endemic to pumping. But who knows, maybe it is, and this is another angle to take on the basic mechanism that limits gains. Who knows. Lets keep the thoughts flowing though. Maybe we’ll actually figure this shit out one of these days!

I do know one thing: this thread is poised to EXPLODE. I can’t believe that some of the more involved linkers/PE scientists/theorists haven’t chimed in yet. They’re probably preparing their posts in Word even as I speak. I am a mere vassal in their game….

But really dude, thanks for bringing the noise. You HAVE given me pause to consider the topic of this thread- i.e. trapping lymph for longer than the body needs to process it- and whether or not it’s really the right move.

As you well know, it DOES seem like a lot of the pumping community has moved on to the notion that pumping makes a lot more sense in the context of jelqing between sets- both to cement gains and to go for that kind of “jelq’ed vascularity” which I believe you are referring to.

Rock on dude, I’m perked. The real goal of all of this is the very best dick I can get. I’m not so atatched to any one theory or idea that I can’t stay open to considering intelligent shit that’s obviously been processed by someone with a clue- peace.

That may be the case for pumping, I have no idea.

But the “plump” feeling after jelqing, that isn’t lymph, unless there is lymph inside the tunicas. The skin is still “thin” outside the tunica.

Hi friend, Impressive post. To answer your question, about whether or not lymphatic fluid is cleared the same way as interstitial fluid or not… Yes, they are basically the same thing. If interstitial fluid that is not returned to capillaries (by mechanisms of Oncotic pressure being higher than hydrostatic pressure), it is picked up by the lymphatic system and is then called lymph fluid. Here is a little information as reference:

Source: Lymphatic system - Wikipedia

and yes, you are correct, I’m not making a statement against pumping itself. I’m making a statement about one inducing a lymphedema like condition by obstructing the path of the lymphatic vessels. If pumping is extreme enough to cause considerable fluid build up, like what I’ve so unfortunately have seen on tiger pumping, then for certain I’m advocating against it. The ‘pump’ achieved via pumping, is non other than interstitial fluid. I don’t know if there are any pumpers out there that pump just enough without any post session lymph expansion. On a single dose, ‘boost before sex’ basis, I doubt the fibrosis caused will be significant. But done on a regular basis, with 3-4 hour sessions which are followed by constrictors will definitely make one dive into fibrosis.

As I said, condom pumping should have merit because it circumvents the fluid build up, which is the point I’m advertising against.

Again same story as before. The more fluid build up, the higher the inflammatory response, meaning the more acute the inflammation, which means more Type III collagen gets replaced with Type I collagen. Fluid build up has been a very misleading point in PE which some of the "PE gurus" over at MOS advocate as an absolute necessity to PE and an indicator of the effectiveness of a girth work out. THAT, is a dangerous ideology to work with and one that will not lead to significant gains. So in a way, too much fluid build up itself should be listed as a possible Negative physiological indicator. Fluid is not flushed as blood is flushed and takes alot more time, sometimes up to 48 hours to be completely flushed out of the penis (depending on the level of trauma, the amount of pressure a pumper was using, or the amount of time and intensity that a clamper has used). In the meanwhile, when the lymphatic fluid is present, proteins do accumulate which leads to this fibrosis we’re talking about. So if one is constantly PE’ing almost everyday, that presence of lymphatic fluid is never eliminated (which is why resting is of such paramount importance in natural PE). Now if you constrict the outflow of the lymph, you’re obviously making the situation even worse. This is coming from a veteran clamper. I hit a brick wall and no matter how much time I was putting forth, no gains were coming my way. In the mean time, the mental addiction of PE was eating my life apart. I was constantly concerned and put PE as a primary goal in life, deeming a missed work out as a missed opportunity to a bigger penis. I had no appreciation for my penis, and always felt too small, even at 6.25" mid shaft girth, I felt too thin. I found myself always pushing the envelope and trying ‘increasingly intense and more extreme’ form of PE. Until I seriously injured myself clamping once, when I ruptured a vein and blood started gushing out of the head of my penis. I still didn’t back down, and after a week or so of rest I went back at it, but the problem persisted, until another major vein on the shaft exploded causing a huge hematoma. I had to step back, decon, read, research and realize that I had been wrong about many things and that less can definitely be more if one is well informed. But that didn’t upset me. As you said, the goal is a bigger penis not the method through which one acquires a HEALTHY enlarged penis.

If you’re arguing against fibrotic scar tissue being less elastic than type III collagen naturally present then there’s more than enough proof/research reference on the internet for that. A simple google search will give you your answer. Here’s a snipet of one such statement:

source: http://www.smac world.com/new/p … NAMarch2004.pdf

Cheers! I’m glad to have been able to contribute a little to a forum from which I’ve learned quite a bit.

I agree.
That “plump” feeling after a properly warmed up jelq is Optimal and an indication of relaxed collagen fibers and increased oxygen levels within the penis, as well as vasodialation due to prostoglandin E1 (which in turn helps further unlink collagen) that i believe is increasing secreted in an Edge/jelq combo.

Great stuff vaseline_knight. Certainly food for thought. As far as my personal experience, I have noticed two very different kinds of “plumps” after a workout- one very soft and with tissues I could see being very oxygenated (flushed evenly pinkish-red) and with the whole works very soft, pliable, stretchy, and healthy feeling. Then there’s another where the plump just seems to come from having worked the whang too hard in which the plump is there, but that overall appearance of positive health and perfect circulation is just not there…perhaps it’s a little hard, feels a little beat up, or perhaps there’s a kind of mottled appearance to the coloration.

The first, and healthier plump, usually comes after a very relaxing PE session of manual PE where everything “feels good” and “goes right”, followed by some pumping wherein my length in the tube easily goes beyond my bpel.

The second kind of “hard” or “not so healthy” plump usually comes after stretching a little too much (with not enough recovery) and is followed by one of those plumping sessions where it is a struggle to meet and exceed my unpumped bpel and still keep the needle below 5Hg of pressure.

No, as far as the commentary on fibrosis being “low hanging fruit”, what I was saying is I agree….fibrosis bad….very bad…. Upon this we can definitely agree.

So let me take a stab at summarizing your sentiments:

a.) keeping fluid in the dick on a relatively regular basis, for any longer than necessary is a bad thing.

b.) extreme pumping- hours a day or at high Hg is also unfavorable to continued, healthy, vascularly muscled porn dick.

c.) condom pumping may have merit due to it’s limiting the amount of lymph load processed in the penis- sic. reduces fluid and attendant proteins which sponsor fibrosis.

d.) (this is a guess) pumping itself, if relied on as the exclusive means of PE over several years of time, could very well result in fibrosis.
-My question here, (if in fact you did feel this way) is whether
or not WARMUP, and here I mean thorough and well done
heating of the entire member, might increase resiliency and
permeability to such an extent that PROPER WARMUP might be
cornerstone insofar as keeping your unit healthy, supple, and
out of a fibrotic straight jacket? i.e. could warmup do for
fibrosis what it does for discoloration? Perhaps the increased
heat and circulation can do wonders for keeping the
precipitates of the fibrotic reaction flushed out of the
sub-dermal tissues?

Since you, like many good gainers, make a lot of recovery (and since I’ve been working basically every day since last November) this leaves me feeling like I may be heading for the wall (a plateau) if I’m not careful, would you care to elucidate how rest fits into your schedule and exactly what your schedule rests on?

And also, since you’ve mentioned your suspicions about a PGE1 connection, would you mind telling me how you feel about OVERALL BODY and DIETARY health in relation to PE? Do you see a particular class of foods and/or herbs as having beneficial actions due NOT to their ability to directly grow the cock, but rather to aid the body in relaxing and detoxing to the point where PGE1, hormones, and such like really start to get down and boogie and abet the PE healing mechanisms.

Something that has come into my mind again and again is applying a warm poultice of Comfrey root to the cock after every PE session while the cock is in an extended state (have to work out the best way to do this, but a wrap sounds promising) due to the fact that Comfrey is a SUPER herbal healer wherever it comes to healing (wounds (vulenary), muscle tears, bone breaks) and “increasing flesh” (in herbalspeak). I’ve witnessed the effects of Comfrey over a prolonged period of time, and as a topically applied agent to speed recovery and healing have found it’s actions to be incredible.

Also of interest is your feeling regarding a “PE Limit”- i.e. a kind of ceiling where no more gains are possible. Do you think that perhaps the “limit” which we see people struggling with could be just as much a matter of fibroidal limitation of continued growth as any other thing? And if this were the case could you buy the idea that with totally radiant health- wi.e. aerobic exercise, good core strength workouts, fantastic diet (we’re talking uber diet here- wheat grass, fresh vegetable juices, whole grains, high quality virgin oils and etc.), adequate rest, and healing agents applied directly to the dick we could actually kind of “turbo” our PE experience, make much better (and less fibrotic) gains, blast through plateaus due to the fact that scar tissue and whatnot could be reabsorbed by such a regimen, and etc.etc.etc…..banish the ceiling and again, more etc.etc.etc.

Can you dig what I’m saying? Could we apply dietary/exercise/herbal/ and supplementational modes to concurrently allow us to heal so well that our PE would be benefited tremendously? Or do you think that increases to our PE through such regimens would be negligible?

And hey, thanks for coming out of the wood work man! You’re one hell of a lurker! Got me thinking.

This is becoming an interesting discussion! I agree with much of the substance of what VK says but will try to limit my input to the original question posed in this thread, rather than address all the points made (although I will have to touch on them).

The original question was: “Is there a way of keeping the fluid in the penis after jelqing?”

Yes, a jelly cock ring or some wrap with theraband around it will keep the fluid in.

The question VK answered is “Is it a good idea to keep the fluid in?”

No, it is not a good idea. Applying something to maintain fluid build up will cause increased pressure and therefore reduced circulation. When lymphatic drainage is inadequate (and interstitial fluid will be drained by the lymph vessels), the structures will be bathed in serofibrinous exudate. Fibrin is the main protein needed for blood clotting, and will be deposited between the connective tissue layers, sealing them in a less mobile and adhered state. This is perhaps the main reason for not applying something to keep the fluid in straight after a PE session.

The ingrowth of capillary buds and the appearance of fibroblasts, which begin the manufacture of collagen and ground substance, does not occur until the secondary (middle) stage of the inflammation process (which begins 3-5 days after injury).

The later ‘repair’ stage of the inflammation process involves the maturation and remodeling of the young connective tissue. This is when excessive cross-linkage between collagen fibers can result in the formation of dense, inflexible tissue, especially if the inflammatory process is prolonged.

It is in the middle and later stages of inflammation that gentle jelqing becomes vital to provide adequate, appropriate stress and movement to the repairing tissues. If the tissues are completely rested, the developing collagen fiber orientation will be random and chemically cross-linked (not parallel). The connective tissue can contract and thicken owing to the increased interfiber bonding in a shortened state.

Most of the problems addressed in the posts above can be overcome by very gentle, almost more massage like wet jelqing in between less frequent, more intense PE. The movement and stress created by gentle jelqing will help align the maturing collagen fibers and may well increase the rate of healthy tissue production (collagen and ground substance) by also promoting proper vascular function and tissue metabolism.

Gentle jelqing combined with sufficient rest between periods of loading (other PE, be it intense jelqing, hanging, clamping etc.) should give optimal growth with minimal risk of limiting fibrotic tissue forming.

After hitting this plateau and the gains coming to a halt how much rest are you taking in between workouts. From reading this I get I seeing anywhere from 1-2 days or so

I appreciate your insights VK, but I still have a problem with your overall use of lymphedema as a model for what happens with interstitial fluid during PE.

First of all, lymphedema is a progressive disease. The fluid build up leads to pressure, reduced oxygen, cell damage, stagnant nutrients that provide a hospitable environment for bacteria etc. All this pathology leads to an immune response which eventually leads to fibrosis. This happens over a long period of time, as Avocet said.

Your comparison to priapism is not valid because priapism results in ischemic tissue damage, again leading to the immune response and fibrosis.

Interstitial fluid, as we see after clamping or pumping, comes from capillary leakage. This fluid is non-cellular, as white cells or fibroblasts can not pass through the capillary wall. Without fibroblasts, there is no fibrosis. I do not think that the presence of this fluid by itself, for the time periods typical in PE, lead to an immune response.

If you theorize that this collagen formation occurs quickly, then I think you should be clear that this is only your theory. There may be data out there about the typical response times between the onset of edema, and subsequent bodily responses like Fibroblast proliferation, which is what you would need to help substantiate this theory.

But back to the original question, I don’t see any benefit to keeping the fluid build up in the penis after PE, other than the nice feeling of being plump. It may or may not be damaging, depending on how often and for what time periods you choose to attempt to retain this fluid (with cock ring or whatever). I tend to agree with Wantsmore, that the lack of fibrosis problems reported by pumpers and clampers, is evidence to the contrary of your theory, albeit only anecdotal.

Another golden post firegoat. More sense. So would you reccomend a schedule that went something like:

HEAVY DAY-OFF DAY (with just the light jelqing)-MILD DAY (plus the light jelqing)

Rinse, repeat? Heavy, off, mild, heavy, off, mild….etc..

And of course, we’re talking a sort of normative average kind of way of looking at this- LISTENING TO YOUR UNIT being the holy grail of PE.

And are you also saying that this kind of frequent pseudo-jelq (i.e. massage) can pretty much be happening whenever you’ve got time for it so long as it’s not at all intense and more on a kind of therapeutic tip?’

Thanks again for the post. More PE goodness.

Yes, excellent post by Firegoat, which I wish I read before I posted myself. The presence of fibrin in the fluid is a good point.

And this;

Is a good point and sort of what I was getting at. On top of this, I wonder if we can even assume that PE exercise leads to an immune response. Although we envision “micro-tears” and healing, isn’t this in itself speculation? Can’t it also be true that we stretch the collagenous tissue, and stimulate cell growth in the cellular stuctures, without even inducing the typical immune cascade of events?