Originally Posted by LetsGrow123
Yes all of PE is pretty much unproven and anecdotal if not all of it. Even the gaining without ADS. I do believe the extender studies that have been done. Why did you say “hold” with scare quotes as if that is not what it is doing? Your ADS second category is for holding. It’s just for holding the with much less tension then something like an extender can provide. The second category ADS when using ACE wrap also does not provide much if any tension to the inner penis and ligaments. But for a person whose PE routine hits the shaft of the penis like the tunica with bundle stretching or fulcrum stretching an ADS like ACE bandage will provide some constant, even if low, tension.When I think of the benefit of preventing turtling it comes to me as common sense. Now please don’t take that as me meaning you or anyone who doesn’t fully agree with me doesn’t have common sense. I’m not on this forum to make myself or people think I’m smarter then anyone. I enjoy these discussions and varying ideas. It is how everything in this world continues to progress and move forward. If I am proven wrong at anytime whether it be this subject or something unrelated to PE I am glad to be learning. My ego needs no checking. If the penis is allowed to turtle the cells have more closing pressure as they’re being drawn into each other more after positive trauma producing exercises which will slow down the cell generation that allows for the penis to grow. Having a constant opening pressure of the cells, even if slight, can only positively affect PE endeavors whereas I feel even though turtling will not prevent gains it can make them slower or in some people case prevent them. I believe it is possible that the people who have done PE routines consistently and become nonbelievers b/c they made no gains possibly could be related to not using an ADS and turtling.
Healing joints ROM improvement are greatly different from PE. The elasticity of even a fully functioning joint that isn’t healing due to injury or shoulder is drastically different from the elasticity of the penis to the point where stretching of skeletal muscles and joints shouldn’t be talked about and related to PE. If a muscle is stretched to increase flexibility it’s cells do not increase in number like they do with penis extender use. The same goes for joint tissue structures. Skeletal muscle and the different joint tissues in relation to stretching and flexibility can only increase in flexibility, not overall size like we are working to achieve with PE routines.
When it comes to the derogatory term “bro science”, all of PE is bro science. Now bro science should be seen as a starting off point that is making advancements to be built upon . I remember being at a expo and Arnold schwarzenegger was speaking about not being afraid to find something that no one else does or believes is true or beneficial enough to do. He used isolating upper and lower bicep muscle area with specific bicep curl variations. When he and others began doing this most of the bodybuilding world told him it was useless and it would not be or lead to being beneficial. Now everyone in the competitive bodybuilding world does it.
Ok, I will go piece by piece through things here.
I didn’t put the quotes on to be sarcastic, just because it is common language in out community and I was indicating that.
10 extender studies have been performed and have come up with very consistent results, that’s the reason I made that distinction.
I agree with you the idea seems like common sense, but just because something is common sense does not mean it’s true. Take for example building muscle mass. All along it has been common sense that when we lift we cause little tears in the muscle and they heal bigger and stronger. Most people still believe this. But modern research on muscle growth mechanisms is finding that muscular tension (load) and hormonal cascades closely tied to tension are really the key players in growth. It is not so much you mechanically directly causing muscles to grow through damage, but you providing a stimulus to adapt to that is transmitted to the muscle cells through mechanotranduction of tension and hormonal messaging. I know PE isn’t weightlifting, but the example is to show that common sense isn’t always correct, especially when we are talking about something as complex as human physiology.
When you say closing pressure, I assume you mean compressive force. It is true that compressive forces will cause tissues to shrink if applied over a great deal of time, but turtling is not a heavy compressive force, just your body’s reaction to trauma. That is, there is no external force which the fibroblasts will feel through mechanotransduction, it is the fibroblasts themselves which are causing the contracture. A brief tangent: I think it is really, really cool that fibroblasts in connective tissue can create contractile forces in those tissues even though they have no contractile protein structures like muscle cells! Ok, tangent over.
This idea of compression requires a brief description of what happens in the plastic deformation of connective tissue. Because it is not microtears as everyone always talks about. Micro tears (cavitations) do happen but it is deep in the yield region of the stress-strain curve, getting close to catastrophic failure, a place where we do not want to be. The plastic deformation we are after involves the slippage and breakage of collagen fibrils, but these do not create tears that must be filled in, broken collagen fibers are not healed they are recycled, this causes a reduction in tissue integrity, preventing the tissue from rebounding to its original size. That means that even during the contracture caused by turtling, if plastic deformation has taken place then the tissues cannot contract as far. If enough trauma had taken place, however, the tissue might form adhesions. An ADS might help prevent adhesions, but if you are hanging all fresh adhesions would probably be broken anyway in the first couple minutes the next time you hang as they are still very weak (mostly fibronectin with very little collagen deposition).
Cell proliferation: this happens, but is responsible for much less growth than is assumed. Connective tissue is actually composed of only 20% cells, the other 80% is all extracellular matrix composed of collagen, other structural proteins, proteoglycans, and water. This ECM is actually the part we need to understand and grow.
Constant positive pressure: this is, I assume, traction force you are talking about. Unless this force is great enough to cause significant displacement, no growth will occur in connective tissue. Experimentally, this has been found to be around 3% displacement to begin to stimulate fibroblasts into synthesizing collagen at a greater rate when we are talking about uniaxial stretch as in hanging, stretching or extending, and 6% displacement to begin causing plastic deformation. These numbers seem small, but they are not! A tendon stretched to 3% actually feels pretty uncomfortable. Above 6% becomes very uncomfortable, even painful as you start to exceed that strain threshold.
Comparing penile tissues to other connective tissues in the body: while this process might be imperfect, it is certainly not useless. Comparing the ligaments in the body to the suspensory ligaments is actually a very accurate comparison. And the hierarchical collagen structure of the tunica and its albuginea and its composition is almost exactly like tendon, it is so close in fact that it can actually be considered tendon in most mechanical situations.
Joints do have other aspects to their mobility. Mainly because they are often attached to muscles. Aside from the effect of skeletal muscle on joint mobility, their composition is very similar to the connective tissues in the penis. In the study I posted, the reduction in joint ROM was caused by connective tissue contracture, so regaining ROM required that this connective tissue be elongated once more, not the muscle. So in examples such as that one, the parallel is not perfect, but it is relevant.
Bro science: some aspects of PE can be linked to scientific concepts, and certainly my knowledge of connective tissue has helped me explain some of the things that happen with PE. So I don’t think it is ALL bro science.
Where did you see Arnold give his speech? That would have been amazing, he is one of my heroes.
Roots
