Opinions or even facts?

Go on thinking im an idiot. Makes no diffence what people over the internet think.

Hey all..

Wanted to get back into the spirit of this thread…

And again…

Discussion

Soft tissue such as tendons, ligaments, muscles, joint capsules, skin, and fascia display viscoelastic properties.1,4,8,10,11,12,13 Viscoelastic means the tissue will respond in an elastic and viscous manner. Important properties of these tissues to consider for rehabilitation include strain rate dependence , creep, stress relaxation, elastic deformation, and plastic deformation.

Strain rate dependence is the dependence of material properties on the rate or speed the load is applied. Taylor et al.11 showed that there is an increased risk for tissue injury with rapid stretch rates. Rapidly applied forces will cause material to react in a stiff, brittle fashion. Under sudden loading, tissue will respond with elastic deformation and can ultimately fail or tear, with very little tissue plasticity. Gradually applied loads result in tissue responding in a more compliant or ductile manner with plastic deformation.

Creep is the continued deformation with the application of a fixed load.11 For tissue, the deformation and elongation are continuous but slow (requiring hours to days to obtain plastic deformation), and the material is kept under a constant state of stress. Treatment methods such as traction therapy and dynamic splinting are based on the properties of creep.

Stress relaxation is the reduction of forces, over time, in a material that is stretched and held at a constant length.11 Relaxation occurs because of the realignment of fibers and elongation of the material when the tissue is held at a fixed position over time. Treatment methods that use stress relaxation are serial casting and static splinting.

Elastic deformation is the elongation produced by loading that is recovered after the load is removed. 5,9 If a force is applied to tissue and then released, the tissue returns to its original length. No long-term elongation or stretch occurs with elastic deformation, Plastic deformation, however, is the elongation produced under loading that will remain after the removal of a load.5,9 A tissue undergoing plastic deformation will remain stretched, yielding a permanent increase in length.

Since a permanent increase in ROM is the goal of most treatments, therapy should be aimed at producing plastic deformation of the tissue. It has been shown that a low force accompanied with a slow, progressively increased stretch will produce plastic deformation at low peak loads.6,9,12 This can be obtained with either creep or stress relaxation. Creep, however, requires prolonged treatment times ranging from hours to days, and places the tissue under a state of constant stress. Faster stretching also supplies a greater chance for tissue tearing rather than stretching. 6,9,11 Therapy, therefore must be designed to achieve a slow, progressive stretch, with plastic deformation at low loads, while minimizing the chance for soft tissue injury. The optimal method to obtain plastic deformation appears to be SPS.

Static progressive stretch appears to be an ideal method for reestablishing range of motion. The orthosis described here embodies the principles of static progressive stretch, and allows the patient to work on therapy in a home-based program. The overall average increase in motion was 31° (69%), with excellent compliance and no cases of significant pain with the use of the orthosis. No patient discontinued the use of the orthosis on their own; thus, compliance was excellent.

Short, 30-minute treatment sessions allow for increased patient compliance and improvement in functional outcome over conventional therapy or splinting systems.2,3,5 The SPS approach was so successful that two patients originally scheduled for surgical contracture release were satisfied with their improvements and believed that no further intervention was necessary. Nineteen of 20 patients were satisfied with this rehabilitation approach. The one dissatisfied patient used an earlier prototype and experienced some discomfort with the orthosis use; however, the patient was satisfied with the functional outcome. The authors realize that this is a small series with a short follow-up time of one-year; however, the initial results of this new approach are encouraging.

Based on the results of this study, it is concluded that (1) SPS is a successful method for the reestablishment of ROM. Treatments based on stress relaxation (static progressive stretching) appear beneficial and require less time (one or two 30-minute sessions/day for one to three months) than those treatments based on creep. (2) A low-force, patient-directed stretching can produce plastic deformation with permanent elongation of soft tissue, which does not deteriorate over time. (3) No complications or side effects occurred with the SPS or the JAS orthosis. There was 100% patient compliance, with no complaint of increased pain. (4) Significant gains were noted in this short-term study, with an average increase in ROM of 31° (69%). In patients observed more than one year, there was no decrease in ROM, suggesting that once plastic deformation occurs, the tissue will maintain the elongation over time.

* From the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of Arkansas, Little Rock.
** Department of General Engineering, University of Illinois, Urbana.
Departments of † Physical Education and ‡ Zoology, Eastern Illinois University, Charleston.
Reprint request to Peter M. Bonutti, M.D.,P.O. Box 1387, Effingham,IL 62401.

There HAS to be a reason PE works, because it does. So we just need to identify the reason it does.. Healthy discussion involves debate. But there are ways of presenting information drawn from authoritative source. I hope these posts help everyone in this debate.

What PE is doing is NOT new. It is just a new location on the body that it is performed. Stretching as a method of physical therapy is OLD, we just have to apply what we now to PE.

In the case study (in the LINK) pay attention to the sections:Pysiology of connective tissue. Biophysical effects of strtching.. Dont miss that study.. It explains a LOT of what we are discussing.

Hope this helps..

Kewl, fiedmoose. I never said you were an idiot. You’re probably not. You are a little bitchy though. Bye bye.

For anyone that still cares

Here’s a broad overview:

http://www.ptjo urnal.org/March … 9/v78n3p308.cfm

Especially the section that reads:

"Changes to the Matrix in Connective Tissue Diseases and Injury

Under normal physiological conditions, the maintenance of fibers, PG, and glycoproteins is tightly regulated and controlled through a balance between synthesis and degradation. This balance is maintained largely by stimulatory cytokines and growth factors in addition to the degradative matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) and the tissue inhibitors of metalloproteinases (TIMPs).58 The synthesis and secretion of MMPs and TIMPs is similarly modulated by an intricate network of signaling factors, cytokines, growth factors, and hormones.58

The alteration of the balance between synthesis and degradation influences normal tissue architecture, impairs organ function, and changes the mechanical properties of the tissues. As a general observation, net degradation of matrix components occurs in osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, pulmonary emphysema, and osteoporosis. Net increases in synthesis over degradation leads to accumulation of ECM in fibrotic conditions, such as interstitial pulmonary fibrosis, liver fibrosis, and the sclerodermas.

Trauma to CT also alters function. A partial or complete rupture of CT through excessive tensile loading commonly occurs in ligaments and tendons and at musculotendinous junctions. As a general principle, the loss of tensile loading, or compressive loading in the case of articular cartilage in a joint,48 leads to rapid tissue deterioration.59 The repair and remodeling of these structures is usually slow, taking many months, but follows a generally predicable pattern.26, 59 During the initial stages of healing, rupture sites are bridged by newly synthesized type III collagen, but, as remodeling proceeds, increasing amounts of type I collagen predominate and provide greater strength.20

"

Most of ligament collagen is the extracellular matrix. The fibroblasts do proliferate, but more importantly they alter the rates they do their jobs of forming the matrix according to stresses which alter gene expression, and therefore what they do. The only reference I’ve ever found to support an externally available influence is the role of Omega 3 fatty acids in promoting the remodelling process.

In many other threads are references to the macro-mechanics of what happens to ligaments specifically in response to types of stress.

In response to the JAS/Bonutti studies quoted above. I endorse these as the MOST important ever posted here, (three times now) for PE. There are a few others that refine the amount of stress by examining the rates of creep as functions of stress/strain. Somewhere in the middle is good. Yup my opinion and experience. Right on target. Come to think of it I’m done here, too.

Pyramidal sets

Talons,

Thanks for the article. I’m looking forward to reading it later today.

MM, Talons, Rakishly -

Thanks again for all the great research!! Thunder’s Place seems to have finally accrued enough guys knowledgeable about these matters to have a productive multi-sided discussion on the science of PE within one thread. In the past, we’ve had some very well-informed members post their theories, but often there was little feedback because there weren’t enough other guys who really knew what the poster was talking about.

Cheers to TP! This is how progress in understanding occurs — collaboration.

Rak,

I thought I researched this subject exhaustively, but I now see you’ve come up with material that I missed.

I for one am still very interested in what you have to say. I hope you’ll decide to come back.

Talons,

This document was an important part of Hobby’s “First Thread of the Year” dealing with connective tissue.

The above document forcibly concluded that long duration, low force stretching was superior to short duration, high force stretching. However, at least I and some others didn’t really understand what was meant by “high” and “low” force. At the time, I just read snippets and did not see the full text.

Many people concluded from this paper that “low force is better than high force” and applied that conclusion to take up using ADS or to significantly drop the weight that they were hanging with.

Now that I’ve actually read the paper, however, I’m struck by the fact that “low” and “high” force are actually defined with some precision (almost), and that the definitions differ significantly from what many of us were thinking.

The paper says that

In other words, a “low” force is one you can tolerate for 60 minutes per day. A “high” force is one that you cannot. I don’t think there’s anything more to it than that.

It’s clear from a full reading that time and force together are what is really important. My take-away from this paper is to use as much force as I feel comfortable using in the amount of time I have available to hang.

I do not think this paper tells me to hang less weight than I feel comfortable hanging. I believe it says I should hang as much weight as I feel I can stand for as long as I have to hang.

So, if I only have 1 hour a day to hang, I should hang as much weight as I can stand for that hour. If I have 6 hours a day, I should probably drop the weight so that I can make it all the way to 6 hours. Extra time with all the weight you can manage is better than less time with more weight.

Of course, there may be other good reasons to use lower weight than the maximum you can stand. The best one is that you’re gaining. Others might be bruising, donut, numbness, and (oh yea) overconditioning.

Hey guys,

Field mouse I have to say I didnt see rakish as condecending at all
I’m with modesto let get back to the subject, because it’s a good one:

Your very first post states you see pumping and jelquing as the same essentially,
I see them as total opposites, I’ll explain, with prodigious dollops of massive respect ;) :)

Jelquing
Creates great positive pressure and puts tissue under enormous stretching stress, also tremendous positive blood pressure.

Pumping
Creates a vacuum, and although it enlarges the flesh, it’s just filling the space, it’s neither under the pressure of jelquing or pressurizing it with blood the same way.

That is why the the former is permanent and the latter not according to common belief’s why the latter feels spongy.

MM.. you are RIGHT on..

That is one reason I wanted to post the whole study. The full text allows a reseacher to draw conclusions from the actual data as opposed to the abstract.

Thanks for the feedback.

I vote that these studies are posted together in a new area called ‘research’ We can use the studies as a sticky and discuss them at our leisure..

If Thunder wants me to I could begin to get info together..

I think that this is a GREAT idea. There have been a number of outstanding posts on PE theory over the years (e.g., Hobby’s thread of the year), but they get lost over time amidst all the other stuff on the forum. A “technical” forum may yield a lot of advances in understanding how PE really works, physiologically — and may thereby lead to the formulation of better PE regimens.

I did initially and overreacted. Im just interested in reading all this information. This is what I was striving for before I made it take a temporary detour. :)

Great idea!! It makes alot of sense..

I’ll bite. The question still remains, “How much force should we use for hanging?”

As I said above, the “Contracture” paper does not say that “less is more.” It really says, “More time is better than less time, even if you need to reduce the weight to get there.”

If this were my only reference, I’d probably be hanging 20# right now. Still, I don’t. Why not? Because I’m afraid of overconditioning. I want to keep the weight as low as I can, while still experiencing gains.

Based on the contracture paper and especially on Bib’s observations, I think all signals are pointing to “fatigue” as the determinant of proper hanging weight. You need to load the tissues you’re trying to stretch. You need to load them enough to deform them, or perhaps to encourage them to grow over time (assuming that happens short of plastic deformation).

I’m just spouting opinions at this point, but I think Bib was right. You want to reach fatigue and stay there as long as possible. The “Contracture” paper is totally consistent with this. Hanging with weight less than what fatigues the tissue is probably a waste of time and possibly counterproductive (It may encourage strengthening instead of lengthening).

Does anyone else have any experience that points to a different answer? Any low weight gainers want to chime in?? All opinions (and facts) welcome.