Opinions or even facts?

hmm…

The study definately says more time is better than less time. There is NO doubt about that. And less weight can be used over more time to get better (permanent) gains in ROM.

As for BIB, I have only been interested in PE for a short time. I dont know BIB or what his credentials are. I do know that he has been at this for a long time, but that does not mean anything other than experience. I appreciate what experience brings but also know when a study group is not controlled or the data is subjective then the wrong conclusions can be drawn from the data. That being said, where in any of the literature is ‘fatigue’ mentioned? I need some info on that so I can apply it to what we know.

Talons,

If by "the literature," you mean actual published studies, I don’t know of any. Bib’s been using the term for a long time, however.

I have no idea what Bib’s technical credentials are. I have surmised from his knowledge that he may have an engineering background. He also writes well and is a very organized thinker. Most importantly, perhaps, he is one of the greatest gainers of all time—over 4" in length.

Here’s a thread from a couple of years back where Bib talks about fatigue. It ought to give you some idea about what is meant.

More Weight VS More Sets

These are informative as well:

Hanging —how often- how long

As for a scientific explanation of why "fatigue" might facilitate gains, I’m somewhat at a loss. However, I found something from a paper Rakishly sited above to be intruiging:

"Tension on wounds." Sounds sort of like hanging through fatigue. Perhaps hanging while fatigued stimulates collagen synthesis and builds new tissue.

Here, we see that mechanical stress induces fibroblasts to deposit collagen:

CYTOMECHANICS AND CELL-GENERATED FORCES
Robert Brown, Tissue Repair Unit, University College London, UK

Cytomechanics is the application of mechanical engineering principles at the cell level. It is characterised by a complete interdependence of extracellular matrix (ECM) material properties, mechanical loading and adaptive cell responses, making the study of any one element problematic. In many forms of tissue repair the major need is to understand how adaptive cell responses give rise to the material properties of new ECM.

Since ECM architecture is influenced by local mechanical loads our aim has been to identify how key mechanical cues elicit cell responses. Models have included the use of uniaxial loading to determine alignment, collagen and MMP production (reflecting remodelling). These demonstrated that fibroblasts, which are subject to, and are able to align with, predictable strains in their ECM increase collagen deposition. However, where local cues conflict and prevent adaptive responses, MMP production increases, suggesting cell migration or ECM removal.<b>The general conclusion is that resident cell behaviour to mechanical cues, is one of stress shielding, using adaptive responses including shape/alignment changes and local production/removal of collagen.</b> In turn, this dictates that (i) fibre composition and architecture (i.e., material properties) and (ii) the pattern of cell-matrix attachment to pericellular ECM are central determinants. In effect, the existing pericellular matrix (e.g., soft, random granulation tissue or stiff, collagenous scar) has a major influence on downstream, cell-mediated remodelling of that tissue.

This is where the piezo electric effect and magnetic/electromagnetic polarity are theorized to come into play. The aligned (mature) type of collagen is easier to continually creep/stress relax gradually into longer helixes. Or so I think. You stupid people. I know everything..kidding (I could really use that spanking of my life, fieldmoose)

The only thing I ever regeret not trying was to use a special elongated saline-filled Blakoe ring I envisioned to try to shorten the remodelling process. There are still other studies I found that suggested micro-amp electrical devices work way better for wound healing. (google TENS units) I used to have several hundred research papers along these lines. and several spreadsheets modelling simplified multiple-spring deformation physics….ummm…two hard drive crashes ago. I still remember the conclusions, generally, and what I made work for me (the most important thing). The irony is I am done PE-ing. Have been for a while. I just come here to caption pictures. Gains of 1.75ish by .3 to 8.5x6.5. Enough dick. If I could make one recommendation it would be (ok two) 1. HEAT HEAT HEAT 2. THREE SESSIONS A DAY (an ounce of preventing recovery is worth a pound of fatiguing)

Also try YGuy’s deep tissue massage (let it hurt)

Truth is you can talk a woman off (I have multiple times). Now there’s a forum topic. Search for Axelrod’s Orgasmotron. That works, takes alot of balls though. Never mind googling, I’ll give you that one:

FS Home - Fast Seduction

Now. if you can do this you don’t need any dick at all. .

"Give me ten minutes to talk away my ugly face and I will bed the Queen of France!" Voltaire

Hijacking the imagination as Ross Jeffries aptly put it.

(Honey have you ever imagined what those romance novel heroines must Feel in the instant they go from hoping and wondering if…and when… it will happen to the excrucitaing instant when the brooding, powerful warrior of their imagination erupts in a frenzy of desperate passion and takes them completely…devouring them without shame, even devouring their shame…What do you think it wou lbe like to Experience the terror and Exstacy of that right now.(insert lingual rectal penetration here)…)

P.S. Fieldmoose you prick. certain kinds of people know they benefit from ass-whooping… and seek it where they can find it…you tease

>>”ffxionline
Ya we have a problem I am suprised millions (or hundreds) of people PE everyday withought any scientific merit to back up the results. I mean if we could ask some doctors in the field or maybe get some interested possibly a real way to enlarge your unit could be developed and alot of people here will become rich.”

ffx,
I thought PE was a “real way to enlarge” our units. If not, I have to figure out why the hell my cock is 80% larger than it was 2 years ago.

BTW, trial & error and a sense of community is what carried weight trainees for decades - and longer - before the modern sciences got involved. As for PE, they don’t want to get involved….at least not yet. So, this be it.

ModestoMan,
The penis is composed of fibromuscular bands, however. But I agree that blood volume plays a big role.

>>”rakishly,
…If I could make one recommendation it would be (ok two) 1. HEAT HEAT HEAT 2. THREE SESSIONS A DAY (an ounce of preventing recovery is worth a pound of fatiguing)…”

rakishly,
We share a lot of the same theories. I believe in the importance of overdoing it on the heat. I also agree with your RX for multiple daily sessions - over time, that must contribute significantly to “preventing recovery.”

However, I don’t really subscribe to the “dime’s worth of traction” theory. I agree that Time is very important - which is why those ADS devices can bring gains. And, of course, nobody ever lengthened their penis by imparting 850 lbs of tractile force to it (sever perhaps, but not lengthen). Yet, the cumulative histories of many hangers reveal a genuine need to gradually increase resistance over time. I don’t know if this could be remedied by period breaks for deconditioning, or is simply an avoidable reality of the nature of the beast.

But human tissue does become conditioned to stressors (and this is demonstrated in so many different ways - even in the manner that people build up resistance to certain medications, alcohol, etc.). While I’m not doubting that necrosis can occur at literally 0.00000001 levels of tension, I’m not sure that such barely-stretching traction can amount to any type of meaningful, measurable gains (or why don’t our penises continue to grow throughout our lifetimes - just from the simple act of masturbating or even tugging it out of our zippers to take a piss?).

Anyway, thanks for those very interesting responses.

fieldmouse,
I still can’t figure out why you feel offended. I’ve found rakishly’s posts to be very interesting – not condescending or pontifical. You asked a question, then got a lot of thoughtful, detailed responses (which any thread-starter would’ve been thrilled with), then you reacted quite childishly. What gives? I’m still laughing about the “intellectual beating of a lifetime.” Come on, man. You did nothing but reveal yourself in a very unflattering light (something I’ve done many times). :)

rakishly,
As I thought more about the “any-level-of-stretch” theory, I wondered how many times we piss in 3 months. At least 3 times per day would be 270 times in 3 months (it might be more than 300 times in 3 months). And how many times do we jerk it? And play with it? I remember occasionally pulling on both my flaccid & erect units, long before I ever heard of PE, just “messing around” (not trying to lengthen it, or even believing that was possible).

If this type of minimal traction could promote any type of elongation, would 1/2 mm every 3 months be reasonably expected (that’s only 1/180th mm per day - an incredibly tiny increment)? That would mean that from the time a guy reached sexual maturity, his penis would be 2” longer by the age of retirement. If anything, the penis gets smaller as we age.

I believe that a requisite level of tension is needed for gains. And I believe the required tension levels increase as we make gains. How much tension? Duh…….hmmmm……next question.

And Time is the most difficult variable for us to master, because its so precious. If you started out stretching just 10 minutes per day, and added only 1 minute to your daily times every week, you’d be stretching 62 minutes per day after your first year of PE (not impossible, of course, but very demanding to log that much actual stretch time - would probably require almost twice that much total time involved).

At the end of 2 years, it would be 114 minutes - and would probably require nearly 3-4 hours of time per day (if you didn’t already have crippling arthritis in your hands by then). But by tweaking the tension levels, we could keep those workout times from spiraling out of control.

I’m presently on an extended break right now (and have been reading a lot of old threads here, working on some ideas, revisiting some theories, etc.). But I was planning to actually implement 3 daily stretch sessions - 21 per week. I had been up to 40 min of actual stretch time per day & it was very demanding. When I’m back from my break, I’m going to start with 3 8-minute sessions (168 min per week). And I’m going to use a lot of heat, at least in the morning & bedtime sessions (during the day might be inconvenient for me). I will track everything with Excel - as I had done during the most productive stretch of PE that I’ve ever had (and I’ve been closely studying those old .xls sheets lately).

Thanks.

I agree I acted quite childishly, but in my defense, you must have skipped that post. :)

Wad,

I just pointed out that any level of stress promotes cell necrosis and therefore some change in the biochemistry/gen eexpression/elasticity. A dime’s worth of stress will get you a bigger dick in geological time. Even if you kill cells and stimulate proliferation you won’t stimulate building longer fibrils/extracellular matrix unless you break some fibers. This seems to happen on average to a significant degree beyond 5.14% elongation (or strain). If anything I believe in maximal stress in manual stretching, rapid adancement in hanging weight and with stress relaxation I found that “hi-medium” stress (not the highest possible) led to faster relaxation. In any case you want to get beyond that magic 5.14% elongation to get some “permanent” deformation. THough I used to get about 1/2”+ on an 8”-9” bpfsl from immediately pre to post workout, alot of that was tunica stretch. Cant tell what happened with the ligs. Filedmoose, I’m about done picking on you. Though you gotta admit you asked for it with the haughty snottiness. The statement “Intellectual spanking of a lifetime”…makes me giggle

You are not picking on me or bothering me, in my eyes. The intellectual spanking of a lifetime, is a funny one. Feel free to use my witty one-liners. :)

rakish,
You stated, “…This seems to happen on average to a significant degree beyond 5.14% elongation (or strain).” That’s a very specific figure. Did you read it in those links you posted? (sorry, I haven’t had the time to check them out).

How would you quantify the 5.14 percent? Would that be something like 105.14% of BPFSL or simply pulling the unit that far from it’s relaxed state? I do notice that I’ve gotten a lot of tunica relaxation after about 3-6 minutes of tunica stretches (generally in the 10:00-12:00 LOT range), especially if I employ a dual fulcrum. As Bib frequently reported, he would almost always precede an EL gain by FSL gains. Maybe that continuous “relaxation” of the tunica makes it more susceptible to plastic deformation?

But I’ve come to believe for some time now that “cumulative fatigue” is the real key to length gains. Too many guys get hung up on workout “feeling.” That may be an indicator to some guys, but I believe its the accumulation of such tissue fatigue over weeks & months that promotes plastic deformation (as per PE) - but this may have little to do with “feel,” but rather with the sum of tractile forces - gradually incremented - that those tissues have been subjected to on a regular basis (just as the “pump” is not indicative of true muscular growth, as many guys erroneously believe).