Penile stress/strain relationship

This is a much bigger increase than I expected due to heating. I think it might be worthwhile to repeat my stress/strain experiment in the first post under heated conditions. I should then be able to plot the stress/strain curves for both heated and unheated conditions on the same chart. I shall report back in a day or two.

OK here are the results of a rerun of the experiment described in the first post, except this time I used a heated rice sock to warm up my penis as much as possible. Since the first experiment was done in a cool room the difference in penile temperature between then and this time is probably as large as practically obtainable. (Straying into the extremes of frostbite and penile cooking are not viable options!)

Results with hot rice sock heating the penis

kg L(cm) Strain

0.00 9.0 0.0
0.15 9.7 0.08
0.30 10.0 0.11
0.40 11.2 0.24
0.85 13.4 0.49
1.10 13.5 0.50
1.90 15.0 0.67
2.70 15.0 0.67

Here’s a graph of the above results and also the original results for unheated conditions from post#1 (note I had to rescale the original graph!!)

Wow, at ~900 grams the strain is more than double when heated! Goes well with the accepted practice of stretching after a slight warmup (when running etc).

Next question is how do we use this knowledge? I read in one of the heat threads someone (biology teacher?) claiming that the tunica of rabbits (I believe it was rabbits) was pretty much the same stuff as the heart sack tissue, i.e. damn near impossible to cut through. He also claimed that the various layers of the tunica were separated by a gel-like substance that would solidify when heated, and thus it didn’t act as a lubricant anymore. This meant that the deformation when heated would become more permament, as far as I recall, due to lubricating effect going down and tissue deformning as a result of this. This reasoning would merit that one should cool down in an elongated state.

When looking at the strain diagram I understand this as the tissues being dislocated relatively one another to a greater extent than when cool. The question is how to make this dislocation more permanent - cool down elongated or not, warmth kept up for a long time or not. I suppose next task for you, mbuc, is to check contraction when hanging cool or warm. Then if you could please go on to check about strain and contraction after having had heat on for long time. We’re counting on you!

regards,

Heat looks like it is the way to go then!

Thing is I don’t know how I can use heat all day. As it is I use a heat-pad for 10 minutes prior to my early morning 15 minutes of manual stretching then I attach .8kg ADS for 12 hours a day.
I can really notice the difference from upping the weight, it feels a lot heavier and I think I would struggle with anymore weight. Maybe I will adapt in time and need to up the weight?

I stretch another 3 times throughout the day for 7 minutes at a time and re-attach the ADS but all this is without heat.

Great work mbuc, I appreciate the time you are putting in with these experiments.

I deserve a:smack:

For some reason I totally miscalculated the strains for 1.2 to 2.7 kg in the first post. This is what I posted.

Kg L(cm)
0.00 9.0
0.15 9.0
0.30 9.5
0.40 10.0
0.60 10.7
0.80 10.8
1.20 12.3
1.60 12.2
2.00 12.4
2.70 12.6

To calculate the strain for each weight it is (L-9)/9 so

Kg Strain
0.00 0.0
0.15 0.0
0.30 0.06
0.40 0.11
0.60 0.19
0.80 0.20
1.20 0.26
1.60 0.24
2.00 0.27
2.70 0.29

The correct strain values for the last four readings should be

1.20 0.37
1.60 0.36
2.00 0.38
2.70 0.40

I don’t know how I got it wrong. It was only simple arithmetic. Sorry guys! That makes the unheated graph condsiderably closer to the heated one. I will redraw and post the corrected graph.

Here’s the corrected graph.

The correction should also of course be made to the graph in the first post. Although the last four strain values are too low it is all by the same amount (1.1) and I don’t think the discussion of the results is tremendously affected. In fact it is a bit of a relief to see the unheated result come out a bit closer to the heated one because there initially seemed to be a huge difference between them. Even now after the correction the difference is still very marked.

Don’t beat yourself up over that, mbuc!

We all appreciate your sharing your experiments with us.

regards,

Value in red should be 0.11

I even have to correct my corrections:morose:

mbuc,

here is a quote from Pinocchio (post #73 in Shivers heat thread):

“Heat can speed up gains, but it can also prevent gains. The following is from “Dynamics of human biologic tissues” (Currier, Nelson, p. 68):

“Dense connective tissue (= ligs, tunica) heated 40 to 45 C allows a greater elongation without structural damage, so long as strain is limited to about 2 percent… As soon as 2 percent strain is exceeded at this temperature, the collagen begins to yield. Tendon heated to 45 C ruptures at only one fourth the force of elongation of unheated tissue…”

What could it mean for PE? If you are working with low force stretch (stretchers, light manual stretching), heat could be useless. If you are working with heavy weights/heavy stretch and constant heat, heat could be extremely useful.

I was working with a Bib stretcher (home made stretcher that uses a Bib starter to attach the penis) and constant heat lately, and didn’t have any results. Couldn’t understand why. Now I do. I simply was in the range where heat makes stretching “safer”. And that of course is something we don’t want. What we wan’t is “controlled damage”.

Why did MagnumXL have such good gains with constant heat and manual stretching? He writes his FSL is 3/8 inches longer after heating. In his case, that’s at least a 3 percent strain, I guess. Mine never improves that much, not even with heavy hanging and heating. Seems my tunica/ligs are much stronger. I hardly ever reach a 2 percent strain, and that could mean that heat doesn’t have any value for me. Damn.”

Now mbuc, what does this 2% strain mean? This confuses things for me. In post #59, ebon qoutes a study:

“”Quote: Originally posted by RB
Eb, great stuff. I wish they would define low in “low force stretch”. I have a feeling there is a threshold beyond which the fibers just get tougher and more stretch resistant, but have never seen force quantified…
End Quote”

Actually one study (damn the mess on my harddrive!!) had this to say regarding that issue:

[COLOR=dark red]”In order to deform, and then reform a ligament into a more desireable length and form, the applied “constant” load must reach over 40% of that particular ligament’s “ultimate load”. A ligament’s ultimate load is defined as “the final load reached by a structure before failure”.” [/COLOR]

This is supposedly ideal force so that the fibers don’t revert to their original state but rather remain elongated. (No word on whether heat changes this threshold though.) Now, we don’t know the ultimate load of the tunica and/or ligaments but considering lig pops and other phenomena I’d say that manual stretching, if fairly intense, should at least approach that 40% cut-off. “

Mbuc, I’m NOT suggesting you go looking for the ultimate load… I recall my lessons in building technology, and the stress / elongation curves for metal that ended in a wavering, the strain lessened and then the testpiece snapped. I presume the stress / elongation curve for tissue just has a longer slight slope (a lot of elongation to begin with and then not so much as the stress increases) as opposed to metal that had a quick rise first. My assumption is based on the fact that you tested up to 2,7 kg and people here have talked of hanging with up to 10-12 kg (maybe more?).

At any rate, combine your experiments and the quotes above and I’m not seeing the trees for the forest. Ebons quote points us in the direction that we should go for 40% of ultimate load (whatever that is) in order to remodel the tissue, and the quote by pinocchio claims that we might be looking at 25% of the load before we have tissue failure when heated above 45 degrees C. If one had a stretcher with a load measuring device, one could set it at 3 kilos (25% of 12kg) and then heat gradually up to and maybe beyond 45C and see if the load measured lessens - it should if the shaft stretches (not with hanging though, gravity is constant). What I’m getting at is that it might be safer to rig a stretcher for a relatively low load and gradually heat under stress and see if there is elongation rather than apply a heavy load and wait for the tearing sounds.

Am I just rambling here, or does any of this make sense to you?

regards,

I don’t have answers, only another question. Any thoughts on a protocol like this, which is incremental and focuses on stress relaxation instead of creep? Is there any benefit to varying stress through a session? I thought it was intriguing, but I didn’t make a stretcher and try it.

I notice the links in that thread are dead now. Here is the new JAS research page.

mgus,

I agree the subject is very confusing because we are only really looking for ways to promote biological tissue growth. I don’t want to permanently deform my penis in a mechanical sense. I want to encourage it to reshape itself by adding tissue.

The experiments I have performed have been very simple, treating the penis as a mechanical object. They were fairly easy to perform as I was doing the hanging anyway. I just thought they would help quantify things.

Most of the elongation I measure comes the body of the penis I am pretty sure the ligaments being much tougher elongate only a tiny fraction of the elongations I am measuring. I think some of the quoted studies are based on lab testing dead samples of ligament and use way higher levels of stress than my ligaments experience. Anyway I think I am looking for growth in the main body of my penis rather than wanting to elongate my ligaments.

On the subject of heat, I’ve only in the last month started using it, by way of a rice sock. Looking at how much extra elongation it allows at any particular load/stress I hope it produces some gains in the months to come.

<<When looking at the strain diagram I understand this as the tissues being dislocated relatively one another to a greater extent than when cool. The question is how to make this dislocation more permanent - cool down elongated or not, warmth kept up for a long time or not. I suppose next task for you, mbuc, is to check contraction when hanging cool or warm. Then if you could please go on to check about strain and contraction after having had heat on for long time.>> mgus

My next post is especially for you, mgus!

If I understand this correctly:

“How do JAS devices differ from dynamic splints? ^
JAS devices and dynamic splints use different loading conditions and stretching techniques in attempts to permanently lengthen shortened tissue. JAS provides static progressive stretch with stress-relaxation loading, while dynamic splinting provides prolonged continuous-force stretch with creep loading. Stress relaxation is the reduction of forces over time in a material that is stretched and held at a constant length. Creep is the continual elongation of material over time with application of a constant force. Stress relaxation loading has been bio-mechanically and clinically proven to be more time efficient than creep in achieving plastic deformation and permanent elongation states in shortened tissues; thus wearing time required for JAS is 90 minutes a day versus the required 8 to 12 hours a day for dynamic splint therapy. The principles of stress relaxation/static progressive stretch are techniques utilized by therapists in treating stiff tissue. Thus the JAS system simulates manual therapy techniques, which are clearly the most effective in restoring lost motion.”

then the penisplus-device, which uses elastic to keep the tension pretty much constant, will induce creep wheras the home-made stretchers (a la Piet, for instance, and other commercial ones) stretch the penis to a given length and then keep it there will be a Static Progressive Stress device, with stress lessening since the length doesn’t increase as penis “gives” over time. I’m not sure how the penimaster and other devices work, if they are springloaded (i.e. constant force) or if they just screw out to a given length. Golf weights and other all-day hangers would then not be as time-effective, since the force is constant (gravity) and the penis extends continually. I for one would rather go for 3x30 minutes than 12 hours straight, considering blood flow constriction and forces on dorsal nerves, lymph build-up etc.

I haven’t read the research papers that were linked to page, but this is exactly (albeit shorter time) what my physical therapist did to me for my bad hip - stretch to the limit and hold in that position (for 5-8 seconds and then he let back a little, I tensed the muscle for a few seconds, I relaxed and then he stretched again, usually getting a little longer each time). I went from a real tense and short-of-movement hip to fairly flexible within a few months at approximately 2 sessions a week. So that’s what he was up to! Thanks Hobby, always good to know!

At any rate, heat or no heat, this would make a no-spring stretcher applied morning, lunch and evening the most time-effective way to go, at least compared to the other moderate-force alternatives. Also, 3 shorter workouts compared to one major seems merited, although some people here will probably claim otherwise.

regards,

Well, I don’t have your experience from cutting up things ;) but I still have the impression that tendons are pretty much non-elastic when under normal (loaded) conditions, such as Akilles tendons (when un-loaded, for instance athletes snapping their akilles tendons, I understand they creep up into the calves pretty quick). On the other hand since the suspensory ligaments cannot be considered to be loaded when flaccid, but I would expect that all ligaments (tendons are ligaments, or am I wrong here?) would have pretty much the same properties, i.e. fairly flexible at the start and then they get pretty stiff and don’t really elongate very much at all any more (stretch your calves and you’ll feel the stretch in your muscle). The tunica seems to be extreme in this respect, probably due in part to (as people here claim) the fibers in different layers going in different directions (like plywood) to ensure that the given form of the “balloon” is constant when pressurized.

On a slightly different note, I believe this is probably the reason for results from semi-flaccid jelquing and Orangebends - when the “plywood balloon” is not filled properly, and you bend the material you can induce greater stress locally than if you fill the balloon properly. When properly filled, the increase of pressure inside the ballon will make the layers of tissue (longitudinal and lateral) take the stress along the fibers equally and the way that they were designed to be most efficient. I have a feeling - and with your engineering background maybe you can correct me - that materials will deform easier, i.e. stress is more locally focused if the material is bent at the same time as it is stressed.

Anyway, both for the tunica and the ligs we want to go right up to the limit were we promote growth without getting to the point of rupture. I for one believe that this probably goes in stages, that under a certain limit nothing happens, over this limit you see growth as a result of the body trying to respond to stress, the next level resulting in minor (microscopical?) tears and damage that will heal (elongated, if you keep repeating this procedure often enough) and the final stage is when one of those minor tears simply ruptures. Maybe stages 2 and 3 overlap each other, so that you get stress-induced growth at the same time as you start getting tears.

I really should keep my mind on work :) but this is more interesting! I’ll just let this all mull over in my head while I wait for the latest developments as reported by mbuc!

regards,

I reported in post#30 the result of hanging 1.1kg for an hour while constantly applying heat. The result was that after an initial elongation of approx. 10mm there was no further measurable elongation over the course of the hour.

Today I repeated the experiment hanging 1.6kg and allowed my penis to cool down after an initial 10 min warm up. I even at the end made a measurement after applying an ice pack (see how dedicated I am to research!). I think the room temp. today is a bit warmer than in the post#30 experiment so I think that accounts for todays slightly lower elongations. Here’s what I measured.

Temp Time L(mm)

Cool 9-30 9.0
Cool 9-38 9.0 Rice sock applied immediately after this reading
Warm9-43 9.8 Rice sock in place (removed briefly for taking length reading)
Warm9-48 9.8 Rice sock removed
C D 10-00 9.8
O O 10-15 9.5
O W 10-30 9.3
L N 10-45 9.4
…….11-00 9.2
…….11-15 9.3 Ice pack applied for 2min before reading

By applying the ice pack I made sure I had got back down well below my original starting temperature. From the results it seems that the initial application of heat has still had some effect on increasing the strain/elongation of the penis even after the temperature is returned to normal or below.