Originally Posted by avaya1
I had deep dermal discolouration which must have been caused by melanin, otherwise it wouldn’t have been removed by kojic acid, which is a tyrosinase inhibitor.
In addition to being an inhibitor of tyrosinase, kojic acid is also a chelator of metal ions. Kojic acid’s chelating ability is well-documented, but here is one source: http://www.jeen .com/technical/ … 20SL%20SPEC.pdf
Kojic acid belongs to a group of substances known as 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones. Inasmuch, it has all the properties to, in theory, be perfect for our goal of removing hemosiderin. This page documents it’s conclusion that 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones make the best candidates as SUHRs (an acronym created by the article author to mean "Selective Undereye Hemosiderin Remover"): http://www.wipo .int/pctdb/ja/i … 86&DISPLAY=DESC
Furthermore, this study reinforces the theory of 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones being ideal hemosiderin chelators: An Efficient Synthesis of 5-Amido-3-Hydroxy-4-Pyrones as Inhibitors of Matrix Metalloproteinases
In short, although kojic acid’s depigmenting profile could indicate that, if successful in removing PE-induced discoloration, the aesthetic condition could be due to an excess of melanin, I believe hemosiderin is still far and away the more likely cause. In fact, I’d go so far as to declare absolutely (in my opinion) that hemosiderin is the cause of PE-induced discoloration.
Also, your assertion that the hyperpigmentation may be due to dermal melasma isn’t exactly accurate; my feeling, though, is that you intended to cite another disorder. If melanin overproduction had anything to do with PE-induced discoloration, it’d likely be due to post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation, such as that seen in those afflicted by rosacea, inflammatory acne (nodules, pustules, cysts, etc.), or UV damage. I say ‘if,’ though, because in the case of post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation (from this point forward referred to as PIH) taking upon a tan/brownish appearance it is that of the epidermal variety. Such PIH is very simple to treat, never lasting longer than three months (all the time necessary for all epidermal layers to shed themselves) and often far less as the afflicted typically takes measures to rid of it. Simple exfoliation with a soft cloth could reduce the PIH to a mere month of existence, and hydroquinone could eliminate it in days, if not hours (if of a high enough concentration). Dermal PIH, though, is far more difficult to treat, likening it’s recalcitrance to that of our epithelial hemosiderosis. It’s appearance is grey/black, and can be identified as dermal instead of epidermal by a wood’s lamp examination.
Now, could PIH of the dermal variety perhaps combine with dermal hemosiderin deposition in the course of one acquiring PE-induced discoloration? Certainly. If recollection serves me, I believe ModestoMan’s former discoloration on the ventral (bottom) side—as depicted in his chemical peeling thread in the Member Pics forum—was nearly black. While that could have been attributed to a very high accumulation of hemosiderin in a confined space (given he was flaccid and his skin was bunched together), it may have been so dark because it was dermal PIH instead of hemosiderin. He was successful in removing it not due to chemical compounding and elimination (such as that seen in chelation) or chemical inhibition and reduction (such as that seen in depigmentation), but due to complete chemical destruction ("Everything must go!"). Thus, we cannot infer what the culprit of PE-induced discoloration is by virtue of his method’s unspecific mode of action. What is sure, though, is that it works, and is still the most highly evidenced effective means of ridding of this damned effect!
Originally Posted by avaya1
That form of discolouration would also be removed by the wart remover (20% salicylic acid). The success of the wart remover doesn’t support the hemosiderin idea - it just shows that your discolouration was dermal
Technically, that the 20% salicylic acid was successful is indicative only of the fact the epithelelial destruction was sufficient to penetrate to the site of discoloration. That a 20% peel of that compound could reach the dermis with a lengthy application is indeed very possible, and is likely why an 18-20% salicylic acid peel is successful in riding of hemosiderin deposited in the papillary dermis (theorized to be the site of hemosiderin deposition after capillary hemorrhaging).
Originally Posted by avaya1
The thioglycolic acid idea seemed extremely implausible (even if you believe in hemispherin staining). The one guy who experimented wasn’t even able to tell us with certainty whether it had worked, and the result he described didn’t sound very coherent, and unlike the dramatic experience of removing discolouration, which leaves pink skin underneath. The other thing is that I’ve always used thioglycolic (veet cream) to get rid of hair in that area with no impact on my skin colouration
Regarding my certainty as to whether or not thiglycolic acid had an effect on my discoloration, I believe I indicated in my thioglycolic acid thread that my certainty was to be approximated at 95%. For your reference:
Originally Posted by zarathustra
Careful as I was with my monitoring of progress and elimination (to the greatest extent possible) of variables contributing to either the hindrance or prominence of discoloration removal, I am 95% certain my discoloration lessened to the degree observed on account of TGA.
I hedged my opinion only because I couldn’t dismiss the possibility my subjective appraisal of my discoloration’s lessened severity could have been due to my body’s in vivo healing mechanisms instead of the thioglycolic acid’s assistance. Nevertheless, given that possibility only comprised 5%, I am still relatively certain TGA assisted in some improvement of my discoloration due to gradual hemosideric chelation. As to my results not sounding coherent, I’m not certain how to interpret that; were my words really that cryptic? :)
In any event, that you seemed to experience success with 50% glycolic acid peels in combination with kojic acid is good to hear. That the results of a chemical peel resulted in far more evident and immediate improvement is not hard to believe. I’m not certain how many times you used Veet, how long you applied the cream/gel, or if you washed your skin prior to application—amongst many other things—, but the improvement from TGA is, understandably, far more gradual than an invasive chemical peel. That should not read as a disparagement; if I had not discovered any other means of ridding hemosiderin I’d be exploring the world of TCA peels. I’m posting because my interest in removing discoloration has piqued a bit recently, and kojic acid was the compound I’m most interested to test. EDTA is a safe and effective iron chelator but has very sketchy epithelial permeability properties. Kojic acid, in addition to the other 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones, are the stars of the show as far as I’m concerned. Although thioglycolic acid is a proven chelator and, in my experience, was effective in chelating hemosiderin with diligent, repeated applications, it’s epithelial permeability did not seem to be ideal. In addition, I have no idea the specificity with which TGA targets iron ions in lieu of zinc, copper, or how many other minerals that may be present in penile skin, amongst a dozen other unknown variables. Basically, TGA did well introducing me to the concept of chelation; there are far better candidates for the job, though.
I’ll update the TGA thread with any progress (or lack thereof) made in my endeavors.