Surgery Forum?

Very thoughtful and intelligent post PG, and very important too. You raise a number of good questions. But I’m inclined to think that the ultimate ethical question you articulate above has already been answered by us here at Thunder’s. PE surgery will continue to be discussed even if we should decide against a dedicated forum for it. Again, look at the popularity of 8-Ball’s thread. Also consider all the appreciation that has been expressed toward 8-Ball for his efforts and for his honesty in documenting his experience for us. The people who comprise this place, including 8-Ball, are not going to change suddenly just because we have a new forum (other than the new members we would get otherwise). Therefore, the various attitudes toward PE surgery will stay the same. A surgery forum should be a place where those who don’t like the idea of PE surgery can say so, and can say why they don’t like it. This is not only acceptable, it is a good thing, as long as there are no improper comments or attacks. So of course it is a “legitimate” topic of discussion. And the very debate occurring in this thread is further evidence of the weight and importance of the topic. This is why I think it should have a dedicated forum. In this respect, PE surgery is not at all like, say, clamping.

Again, a good question. But I just don’t see how the label “Surgery Forum” in and of itself would act as an inducement to have the surgery. Otherwise, to repeat what I said above, I don’t think the content of the posts in this forum would be any different than what we already have here at Thunder’s. You’ll get some people saying, “Hey, this is interesting. I think I might give it a try. Thanks for the info.” You’ll get others saying, “Not me. Never. What a dumb idea.” And you’ll get every point in between as well. If discussing this topic openly and objectively causes some men to look into the surgery who would not have done so otherwise, then we have already established them on this course, and we will continue to do so even without a dedicated forum for surgery. For, to make the point yet again, PE surgery is already discussed here, and it will continue to be discussed here.

I also cannot stress enough how important I believe providing “a venue for accurate information dispensation” is for those who are contemplating the surgery, to any extent. Let’s not pretend that we can just stick our heads in the ground on this topic. Men know about the PE surgery. In fact, there are probably a lot more men who know about the surgery than there are men who know about the kind of “natural” dick tricks we practice here. The surgeons have money and advertise. We don’t. Personally, I have learned more about the PE surgery from this place—and in particular from 8-Ball’s thread—than I have anywhere else. I mean, way more. And what I’ve learned has not cause me to think that the surgery is any less risky than what I was inclined to believe before. If anything, the opposite is the case. Look at how 8-Ball has documented the specifics of his girth procedure: Should he use the Aloderm or the graphs (or whatever they are called)? He’s provided photos of the scar that resulted from the choice he made. And he’s made clear that, in hindsight, he might choose differently. Such information is beyond priceless for someone who is considering the procedure. It might even cause him to give non-surgical methods one last try—or definitely to try them, if he hasn’t already. For me, the ultimate ethical issue is that this information could save someone a lot of pain and frustration, as he learns from those who have gone before him, as it were. At the very least, it will give people a realistic picture of what to expect.

Let me try to articulate a bit more fully why I don’t really understand the opposition to a separate surgery forum. Presumably, those who are against the surgery are against it because they think it is unjustifiably risky. Fine. This is a perfectly reasonable position. But it could be argued that those who think the surgery is unjustifiably risky should be the most interested in a dedicated forum for the topic. That way, there is a specific venue for making this unjustifiable risk clear. Put otherwise, I’m not supporting the forum because I think the surgery is a good idea. I’m supporting the forum simply because I think the topic of PE surgery is important and complex enough to merit this kind of discussion. It may be that such a forum will discourage a lot more men away from surgery who were considering it than it will recruit those who were not considering it. No doubt, this will depend on what an ongoing discussion about PE surgery reveals about the risks verses the rewards. Whether you are for or against the surgery, this is a discussion you should be interested in. And you never know, this discussion might cause you to change your thinking on the subject—it might make you against the surgery, where once you were for it; or it might make you for it, where once you vigorously opposed it. Debate has that kind of power.

This seems to be the “no categorical difference” argumentative strategy again: yes, of course there is already surgery discussion allowed here; but you must admit that to establish a new forum dedicated to surgery discussion may add a substantial additional increment of “institutional” legitimation/endorsement, at least to the eyes of the naive forum lurker, no matter how many disclaimers we post as stickies. I didn’t articulate myself well in the bit you quoted, so I understand where you are coming from with your response. My wording before was simply incorrect.

No offense intended, but this seems a bit disingenuous. Do you really think that having a whole forum devoted to surgical PE would not pique the interest of some guys who otherwise would not have looked into the matter much? It’s hard to predict what the effects of adding a surgery forum may be — in fact, we may end up with fewer guys, in the end, getting surgery, if the forum becomes a place where we learn that the real results aren’t as good as advertised — but surely you must agree that adding this forum will have effects on the dissemination of surgery info and guys’ opinions on surgery, and even on their surgery decisions. If the creation of a surgery forum is nothing more than adding the label “Surgery Forum” to already existing threads, why would you advocate its creation? Is it merely a housekeeping matter of organization?

This is the main reason why I tilt slightly toward the creation of a surgery forum. To reiterate my point, I think it’s presumptuous of us to assume we can really predict all the effects of such a forum — there will probably be unanticipated good and bad — but one effect we can predict is that it will provide a better source of accurate info than is currently available, assuming we can contain any spam problems.

It appears I came to a similar conclusion above, as I responded to a previous paragraph, so clearly I endorse this as an excellent argument ;) (I responded to your post bit-by-bit rather than reading the whole thing first…) I think we agree overall on the matter.

Hey, no need to forgive as I take no offense:) I suppose it’s more a question of semantics than anything. Free access….to information that is usable to the vast majority of men wishing to enlarge their penis. It’s been said there are alternatives to expensive devices, some free and some DIY at minimal cost. Yes, pumps are expensive to many, but in relation to the price of surgery? Hell no! The whole scalpel idea has a pretty low target group, specifically those with near 10 grand to throw at their cocks. Admittedly, I’m guilty of setting a very vague and arbitrary condition here with regard to money, but that’s just me. FREE…for anyone to use, no donations required though they are appreciated. Lack of funds doesn’t stop one from making it bigger or at least having a good shot at it. By and large, the methods ARE free, though some do spend exorbitant amounts on PE.

I’d like to have faith in folks on the referral issue despite knowing it’s all to human to take what one feels is earned. Would anyone who had the surgery actually turn down a referral bonus? Honestly, I seriously fucking doubt it after one just spent a wad of green on his pecker. It would help defray the cost to some degree and would likely be a motivational factor in reality. Also strikes me as very close to advertising and promoting “pay-for-highcostPE” as there are no options but to pony-up big cash when it comes to surgery.

One concern of mine with a surgery forum is the social aspect of it over time. I know this is hard to believe, but for some reason PE tends to have a (hopefully) small number of interesting individuals that are prone to a grand epiphany or two from time to time. Some are so sure about the way they feel on an issue for a while, then BOOM! A dramatic change of heart occurs and the fella goes off the deep end, railing vigorously against their previous notions of what was so damn great.

I can’t help think that a surgery forum would be wrought with this type of situation afterwhile. A huge bill paid, a dick that isn’t what it was wished to be and a nice forum to vent on. Call me cynical, but I’ve seen it happen on issues of much lesser importance and no money. To the question of how to moderate, I haven’t a clue on that one! For instance, if a patient were to find after a year or three that things are not working as expected and they are very disgruntled. Does the mod side with the patient, or the irritated doctor who feels the patient is misrepresenting things? Don’t really know either and it’s really a question of whether either is being reasonable and honest and who to believe. Throws a nice wrench into things when one considers this also involves someone’s business and may affect them financially.

I’ll never argue that there could be a great deal of useful information in a surgery forum. There is also a great potential for problems as we’re dealing with an interesting slice of the population on this site. This really is a last resort type of PE and when it doesn’t work out it’s more than just wasted time, it’s alot of money and a damaged dick. Reckon the rants and forum behavior that may ensue would be of a magnitude that reflects the losses.

I imagine the reason men come to this site is for information on manual/mechanically aided PE methods and not for information on penile surgery. They may have heard about it, but rejected it in favor of the methods we teach here. I believe the number of readers that a surgery forum might benefit to be very low. To prove my point, I did a quick forum search. Here’s what I found.

Searching only these forums: Main, Hangers, Newbie, Pumpers, Injuries, Progress, Member Pics. I searched in English so I did not look at any of the Spanish language forums. Nor did I look at forums not dedicated to PE such as The Dive or Twat’s News. Nor did I look at the miscellaneous forums such as Not Covered Elsewhere, Blue Chair or Brain Food.

I searched once for “lengthening surgery” and once for “surgery.” In the seven forums searched I found 70 threads containing “lengthening surgery” and 630 containing “surgery.” I looked at a few of the “surgery” threads and found they could be discussing someones circumcision, prostate surgery, or any number of other surgeries a man might have which he thinks could affect his PE results. There were also the occasional comment about a wife’s caesarean section, or a child’s broken arm that had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Using “lengthening surgery” was more specific. (I did not search for girth surgery.) Of the seventy threads in those seven forums that contained both the word “lengthening” and “surgery” I found that they did not always occur together, although most of the time they did. There were only 27 threads with titles that addressed penile enhancement surgery directly. The remaining 43 threads had titles that were vague or about something else and lengthening surgery happened to be included in the discussion. Of those twenty-seven surgery titled threads two were about having a surgery forum, eight were about personal surgery experiences, and seventeen were questions or discussions about lengthening surgery in general.

Out of 18,751 threads in the seven forums: 3.4% contained the word “surgery,” 4/10 of 1% contained “lengthening surgery,” and a little more than 1/10 of 1% of the threads were directly titled to indicate content related to “lengthening surgery.” That doesn’t seem like a lot of interest to me. There are more threads in the seven forums (over 100) containing the words “measure correctly.” I just don’t see any justification in the numbers to create (and moderate) a forum for this topic which is apparently not all that interesting to the majority of thread starters in the main PE forums.

Yeah, but what about 8-Ball’s thread? It has over 43,000 views - that’s amazing. Most threads are lucky to get past several thousand views.

I think the thing that may have changed is we finally have some people who are being candid and honest about their surgery experiences and therefore the interest has intensified greatly.

I’m sure if we get some more crash-type threads, where members sense the OP is being dishonest, evasive, or financially motivated then the interest will wane again. But when people think the info is legit, lots of people seem to click in to learn about it.

>Yeah, but what about 8-Ball’s thread? It has over 43,000 views<

It’s one of the threads that all the mods keep a close eye on (closer a while ago). These threads always get high views, because the majority of mods view them on each reply. Judging any thread by it’s views or reply count is probably a bad plan. We’ve had a number of threads which have been “plumped” with guided comments, and others that have got linked from outside, increasing their traffic.

That said, 8-ball’s thread is interesting. I have enjoyed reading it. I have no intention of letting a man with a knife anywhere near my dick, and I do not think his thread is representative of what we could expect from a surgery forum. One good thread does not a forum make.

I thought you articulated yourself very clearly, as you always do. I do understand this concern about providing, or at least appearing to provide, institutional legitimation or endorsement of PE surgery by reason of having a separate forum for it. I have thought about this, and though I could be wrong in my conclusion, I really think this is a false alarm. Perhaps at first glance someone new to Thunder’s would see the separate forum and think, “Oh, they promote surgical PE in addition to hanging and clamping and the like.” Indeed, that might be fairly common. But as you yourself point out, what will really matter is what is said in the forum itself. If the surgery forum makes clear, overall, that the surgery is too great of a risk, then that is the message they will take away, or should take away. Alternatively, if the forum makes clear (again, overall) that the surgery is a success for many, and that if it is approached correctly it can be fairly risk free, then, yes, in that case, such a forum may encourage men to consider the surgery. And it would be fine to so encourage them, if that’s what the facts reveal.

So I agree with you, we cannot predict what the specific effects of a surgery forum will be. But this is mostly because we cannot say in advance what will come to light about the surgery in such a forum. The discussion will lead where it does. But this, again, is why I believe the discussion is important.

Consider this: Does Thunder’s Place, as an open and free forum for PE, promote hanging? Or pumping? I don’t think it does. There are certainly specific members who promote these and other exercises. But there are also some who want no part of either or both of these methods. Yes, the forums dedicated to these methods do motivate some. But they fail to motivate others. Now imagine if, say, the pumpers forum revealed that a large number of those who try pumping, even when they follow all the precautions, end up injuring themselves permanently. What kind of effect would this have on those who read into the forum? Most if not all men would avoid pumping, I would think. Further, if this was true of pumping, I would think it important information to communicate to these men.

I also don’t think we should post any disclaimers if we do set up a surgery forum. Again, I think this is unnecessary. The threads and posts will speak for themselves. I have little doubt that those who stand against the idea of surgery will make their view known in such a forum.

Yes, mostly. I view it primarily as an administrative decision. The most important matter, to me, is whether there is sufficient interest in such a forum. If there is, then having a dedicated local will simply make things more efficient. If there isn’t sufficient interest, then it would be a waste of time. Beyond this, I do think that a separate forum will “focus” discussions and debates on the topic more. But that’s a good thing.

Again, I start with the premise that any man who has a serious interest in making his dick bigger already knows about the surgery and, to some extent at least, has contemplated it as a possibility. PE surgery is very well known. As the best forum for the open and free discussion of PE (that’s Penis Enlargement full stop, without prior qualification), I almost want to say that it is our duty to make sure that the true facts about this surgery are available to men. Let’s face it, we know that if we do it, we will do a better job than anyone else!

PE surgery will never “take over” this place as one of the most common topics. Few guys are going to (or able to) shell out 10k to get it done, let alone the risks and recovery period. I am not surprised that there’s only a handful of threads on the matter but remember, the idea has historically not been taken well by the members and moreso the moderators and old-timers here and I’m sure some have avoided the topic altogether at risk of getting flamed.

Below I have listed the 10 most recent threads in the Twats News forum. Firstly I want to say, I like his forum and I am in no way saying we should remove it but come on, PE surgery is infinitely more relevent that 99% of the stuff that gets posted there and no one is saying its a waste of time/money/space. Also, the argument that no one cares about the surgery doesn’t seem to hold water to me. Once again, most of these threads have no replies and only a few dozen views.

Man Pulls Fuck You on Ex Girlfriend ( 1 2 ) twatteaser 17 588 10-01-2005 06:43 PM
Before George Washington lost his teeth twatteaser 0 11 Today 05:33 PM
Girl-on-girl action on rise in Boston as vaseline-smeared teens go at it, often in pu twatteaser 0 27 Today 05:33 PM
New study finds men are “genetically programmed” to be better shoppers than women twatteaser 0 10 Today 05:31 PM
Inventor creates a machine that will age new wine into a fine old vintage in 15 secon twatteaser 0 14 Today 05:29 PM
Wedding rings reduce male power and develop impotence twatteaser 0 14 Today 05:26 PM
California bachelor creates enormous erection to let women know he’s ready twatteaser 3 125 Today 05:06 AM
David Lee Roth Taking Over for Stern twatteaser 0 26 Yesterday 02:24 PM
Survey Sez Babes Love Porn twatteaser 0 43 Yesterday 02:23 PM
GO CYBERPUNK! Exoskeletons: Wearable Robots twatteaser 2 42 Yesterday 10:46 AM

It seems that you are changing your argument. Now it’s about the relative cost of the various methods. Well, I see no reason to discriminate against those who have the money for the surgery. Is Thunder’s Place for poor people only?

You are really begging the very question that is being debated right now. You are presupposing a certain answer as already established, that Thunder’s Place is only about “natural” or “mechanical” PE methods. I don’t think this, and I never did. The current response to this poll suggests that a number of others here are also inclined not to think this. To me, Thunder’s is an open and free forum for the discussion of penis enlargement, full stop. If someone came here tomorrow and demonstrated that by taking drug X you could genuinely add two inches in length and one inch in girth to your unit, then I’d take the stuff. So would most if not all men, I’d suppose. For me, what is important is the effect, not the particular methods needed to get there.

Let’s suppose for sake of discussion that a careful review of the evidence revealed that PE surgery is a complete success in 99% of cases, and that even in the 1% of failures, the problems are nothing significant, as long as care is taken. Suppose that that is true. If you had more than enough money to spare, and if you were not currently 8 x 6.25 but 6 x 5 or less, would you have the surgery? I would. If you wouldn’t, why not?

Also, what 24 Hours said is important. Look at the interest that is being shown in 8-Ball’s thread.

Well, this one topic is extremely important, I think!

:D

8-Ball - I don’t see the relevance of the threads on Twat’s News. That forum and The Dive and others like them are for entertainment and not for PE discussions. That’s why I ignored them when I did my searches. How could their diversity of topics have any bearing on the validity of having a surgery forum? :confused:

motivated -

The current response to the poll? Sixty-five votes out of nearly 3,000 “active posting” members isn’t much of a response, IMO. In spite of the fact that the first three choices read as “yes” votes for a forum, 8-Ball says the third one is a negative. If that’s the case then (at present) it’s 35 for and 30 against. Not much of a margin and certainly not enough votes (IMO) overall to be very impressive to Thunder, who has the final decision.

How about like an… X-zone P.E. where dangerous high risk methods of PE are discussed. Such as clamping, surgery and so on. Just a random though. I am not opposed to a forum being made but rather how the forum continues to exist. I think it should be given a trial period and if it stays clean, legit and people who interest then I’m all for it. I think this forum should be the first to give legit PE surgery discussions. The number one reason I never considered surgery was because it seemed so shady. Second is side effects and third would be cost. For me weighing those things, an inch was simply not worth it. At the beginning the forum shouldn’t necessarily open to discussion and only a hand full of people could write up some guides/101 stuff and then it could open to Senior Members and special approval.

Wow, more great discussion here. This is a thread that really evinces the productivity of a good debate! :thumbs:

I think Westla’s current objection makes sense: In my opinion, a surgery forum wouldn’t be worth much unless we can get a substantial number of guys who’ve undergone surgery to give accurate documentation of the process for them. Not sure that many guys are out there; 8-Ball is alone so far in posting good photos of the surgery, for example.

Then again, if a surgery forum doesn’t generate much traffic, then there will be little to moderate, anyway.

A tally so far regarding the creation of a surgery forum:

- 35 “for” votes

- 17 “no opinion” votes

- 13 “against” votes

Of course, there’s no way to know if this small sample is representative of the TP population as a whole. Pro-surgery (or anti-surgery) guys may be more likely to check out this thread and vote.