High force versus Low force

I’d prefer the cool pack just for the ease of use, and the lack of water from melting. I do not know if one is more effective. I believe that the temperature is main effective cause here, and not the moisture from ice. I’d be that a cool pack from the fridge would be sufficient, but I will have to try it.

Also, science supports the use of therapeutic heat before, and during stretching, then applying a cool sustance at the end of the session, while still under tensile forces.

Anyway, here is another great link that covers plastic deformation, and the application of heat while stretching.

I was going to write a thread soley for this link, but this thread, and the stickied one at the top of this forum, “More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial” are good enough threads to post this new link under.

Fellas, don’t skip reading this! Oh, it is not overly scientific like some information. It is written by a doctor to potential patients, not from one scientist to another.

In fact, here’s a sizable quote from that link.

Bump for a thread with some great info, in my opinion. Has anyone pursued the cooling packs while still in an extended state with any success? Heating while hanging makes total sense to me, but I’m curious to hear first hand experience with the icing afterwards.

Tocar, I have not done this personally, but research indicates a greater degree of permanent elongation can be achieved when cold is applied after a stretch, and heat is applied before/during a stretch. I do believe this is something that is most pronounced in non-living materials, and in vivo shows only marginal improvements to tissue lengthening.

[QUOTE=hogman]
The folowing is direct from one of my physiology text books called Sports Injury Assessment and Rehabilitation, David C. Reid, b.p.t.,M.D.
Chapter 4 - Connective tissue healing and classification of ligament and tendon pathology

SELECTIVE EXTRACTS from HOGMAN’s original quote

High Force versus Low Force

The amount of stretching achieved by tensile forces is proportional to the amount of force. Also, the corollary that a low force stretching technique requires more time to produce an equal amount of stretching is also true. However, the proportion of tissue lengthening that remains after tensile stress is removed is greater for the low force, long duration method, evidencing its influence on the plastic or viscous elements. High force, short duration stretching favors the recoverable, elastic-type deformation. This principle does not necessarily prohibit the use of high force, prolonged duration stertching, but obviously high force application may generate pain, trigger spasm, and produce tissue rupture. Furthermore, elongation of connectiove tissue is accompanied by some structural weakening, and highforce stretching appears to produce more structural weakening for a given amount of stretch. Hence low force, prolonged duration stretching is usually a more comfortable, safer, and effective method.

Temperature

Temperature has a significant effect on the behavior of connective tissue. Therapeutic heat is usually within the range of 102 to 110 degrees F. Using selected modalities to raise connective tissue temperature to 103F increases the amount of permanent elongation resulting from a given amount of stretcing. At 104 F and above there is a thermal transition in the microstructure of collagen that significantly enhances the viscous stress relaxation of collagen tissue, allowing greater plastic deformation.

Evidently there are also events during the cooling phase that eventually influence the permanent deformation. Tissues that are stretched under heating conditions and the allowed to cool under tensile force maintain a greater proportion of therir plastic deformation than do structures allowed to cool in the unloaded state. Cooling under tension may allow the collagenous microstructure to stabilize at the new stretched length.
A further point worthy of consideration is th fact that at temperatures within the normal therapeutic range the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of connective tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This fact is probably related to the thermal destabilization of the molecular bonds, which allows creeping of the tissue with less structural damage.

SELECTIVE QUOTES ABOVE

I stumbled across Hogman’s original post a few days ago and am very glad he posted this. We need to keep this thread alive and try to build on it. I have no training in things biological but even I can see this stuff is essential if we want to build a theoretical basis for PE which in turn can give a focus on getting better consistent results. Thank you Hogman.

Now I am an extender user and pumper, not a hanger but all this is still relevant.

Now practical questions I can see here are:

1. What would be classified as high force and low force say for an extender - eg is 900 gms a low or high force. And where does ADS fit in where you are dealing with lower forces.

2 Temperature - If we accept that hot followed by cold is good while stretching etc as many of us do, when is optimum to switch from heat to cold say in a 1 hour extending session. Currently I preheat and keep the heat on for the first 15 - 20 mins and then allow a natural cool down. Would an ice pack be better and when should it be applied = presumably towards the end of the session.

3. This stuff seems to apply to elastic and non-elastic stretching of collagen etc which I understand most of the penis is made of. Now activities such as jelqing and pumping seem to help in PE. My untrained instinct suggests elastic stretching of the penile vascular system is mainly at work here though there could also be some non-elastic stretching. Is this stuff relevant or do we have to look elsewhere?

I recognize much of my questions may not have definitive answers but would encourage anyone with any ideas to stick their head up and fire away.

Regards
Austfred

Austfred,

1) high force is a relative thing, relative to how strong your connective tissue is. For example, the serious hanger will have a much higher threshold for force than the extender user, and as his hanging weights progress, this limit of high force will increase proportionately. That said, I think all extender forces could be classified as low. A good way to judge high and low force is through discomfort during a stretch. Because stress is relative this is a much more accurate practice than talking in terms of absolute force. A stretch that produces mild or less discomfort that can be withstood for basically as long as you liked would be considered low force. A moderate degree of discomfort that could be withstood easily only for ten to twenty minutes would be considered moderate force. A high degree of discomfort that would be nearly impossible to withstand for even ten minutes could be considered high force. These close to the guidelines physical therapists use, and I think the practice has value for our purposes here.

Note: when I speak of discomfort I am talking about discomfort that arises due to the stretching of the target tissues, NOT discomfort that is result of having your hanger or extender attached all wonky, or some other user error.

2) Heat will aid elongation all the way through a session. Then cold can be applied at the very end and afterwards. Cold causes the tissue to recoil less. At least that is what happens in vitro and it is assumed to be the case when used during a living person’s stretching. Whatever the reason, it has been shown to help in netting more permanent elongation after a stretch, but in vivo the effect is pretty marginal. You will definitely gain without cold, it is not a necessity. And cold is more pronounced, as opposed to cooling to room temperature. Personally I don’t use cold, if I’m missing out on 1% extra elongation or even a bit more because I skip it I’m fine with that to avoid the hassle. Also, cold is assumed to preserve true plastic deformation - the slipping and failure of collagen fibrils and general loss of tissue integrity that prevents it from recoiling to its original size - and you are not gonna get much of that using an extender.

3) Blood vessels can be permanently stretched just like any soft tissue, but forcing increased blood flow also causes blood vessels to relax. These together can cause increased circulation, a good thing in PE as well.

Roots

Rootsnatty,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Good practical advice.

Regards
Austfred

Wasn’t there a guy named 7up (I think) sometime ago that created the V-stretch. He heated is cock then stretched it for the amount of time his workout was using the V-stretch.

His final action was to stretch his cock straight out and use an ice cube to rub on the shaft until the ice cube was completely melted and his cock was ice cold. He said that this cemented the new growth even though it was only microscopic.

I was wondering if I heated my area just before hanging and then just kept hanging after the initial application of heat, would the micro tears happen and stay elongated as my body cooled naturally (not using any ice or ice packets) while I finished my hanging workout. Any thoughts on this?

This is basically what I do. I use an IR lamp to heat myself for a couple of minutes before each set and keep it on my unit through the set til about the 5 or 6 minutes remaining mark, then turn it off. Heat will greatly effect gains, cold might effect gains a little bit, but not nearly as much as heat. So I don’t use cold (like ice, cold packs, etc.), I just let it cool to room temperature as the set finishes.

Thanks rootsnatty for the reply.

Ice on my cock while stretching scares me. Low weight is doable but anything over 7.5 lbs, uhh no.

You can also use a cup filed with cool water to dunk your penis in afterwards. I use a space heater for warm up as I can’t afford the lamp. What I usually do is on my last set at the time, for instance if I’m doing 2 in the morning and 3 at night on the 2nd set in the morning and 3rd set at night I’ll cut the space heater of midway through those sets. I’m going to start back with golf weights as an ADS and that will also allow it to cool while extended

I like this thread! The main points are backed by my experience, except the cool down statement. I don’t disagree with it, I just don’t have experience that agrees with it, but I will add a cool down phase on my water pumping and see if it makes any difference. I always thought that it made sense to cool down extended, just never did it ENOUGH to see results.

Oh what a hypocrite I am!

I just got done with my hang session and for the last 10 min I placed an ice bag on my shaft and pubic area while hanging 15 lbs. It was mildly refreshing.

We’ll see what happens over time as I will now include this as part of my routine.