Understanding force thresholds for growth

I think it’s fair to say we don’t really KNOW what exactly is happening when we PE.

On either macroscopic or microscopic level.

We really don’t know if we are getting cell growth, scar tissue build up…any of that.

We have educated guesses…but we really don’t KNOW!

What we do know is that we can achieve larger dicks… and we observe apparent tissue changes (toughening, discoloration, injury, etc.)

I have been using the terms cell growth for low level prolonged forces, and plastic deformation for shorter term medium to high level forces.

The truth is…its merely speculation and an attempt to explain what’s happening.

So, lets just put aside what we are speculating on and lets discuss what we DO know…and let us see if using what we do know,if we can apply some logic in order to be more effective in out PE routines.

I think we can say that when we use modest forces, for longer periods of time…we can see penile expansion with little apparent toughening of the penis.
It seems this approach allows longer periods of expansion before plateaus set in.

I think we can say that when we use moderate to high forces to produce gains…it can allow relatively rapid gains…followed by tissue toughening…then slowed or stopped gains.

When this occurs…usually increasingly higher forces produce little or no additional gains.

It appears a prolonged deconditioning break is the only thing that will allow gains to resume.

What has occurred to me is that it is usually counter productive to mix high force methods with low force methods…or more accurately, it CAN be done, but you must apply reason and know what you are trying to accomplish.

Lets use an example here;

lets just say that I am getting slow gains pumping.

I was wise enough to listen to the Vets like Avocet and I kept my vacuum force under 5 in hg, and did about 3 sets of 10 minutes.

3 in of hg translates to about 5 lbs of hanging wt, so if I kept my vacuum under 5 in hg, it means I kept the force below an equivalent of 10 lbs.

This is low to moderate force.

Lets just say my gains slow after 6 months, and I decide to try Avocets recommendation of adding jelquing.

Now jelquing force, depends on your grip and stretch, but lets say I went by the advice to keep it pleasant.

Probably I am producing moderate forces, MORE than that of pumping…but not enough to produce significant toughening…and as a result I started gaining again.

Lets say I made slow but steady progress for another 6 months, at which point I hit another plateau…or at least slow to the point I become impatient.

At this point, I saw that many hangers are getting good results…so I try hanging.

Because my pumping is already producing a hanging force about 10 lbs…I find that hanging wt under 10 lbs does no good.

I continue to up my hanging weight until I hit about 15 lbs at which point I begin to see gains again.

I believe that at this level, it is beginning to go into moderate or even heavy wt and you can get additional stretching, but I believe you can also begin to get tissue toughening.

So, I make another quick 1/4 inch gain…and then my progress comes to a screeching halt!

Why? Because you now pushed past that magic point on penile expansion with out toughening…to a more rapid mechanism of gain (stretching?)but pay with tissue toughening (protective reaction?).

Now no matter how high I go in wt, I get little to no gains.

Lets just say I go all the way up to 30 lbs and still no gains.

Maybe I pursue this for 6-12 months…can you imagine the tissue toughness I have developed?

I try other PE methods, but if they are less force than the 30 lbs…chances are that I see no changes.

Yet it is enough irritation to prevent deconditioning.

OK, so now out of desperation, I try clamping.

I personally believe that clamping produces some of the highest forces we use in PE…I think the high rate of injury backs up my assumption.

So, lets say, despite my beef jerky like condition of my dick, the high pressures of the clamping does produce some additional expansion.

At this point, do you think that there is any other PE routine I can do that will produce additional gains?

I think you can either continue with high pressure clamping with increasingly longer times, or you can go on a DECONDITIONING break, which is probably far healthier and safer than to continue up the escalating force/time road.

If we look at the different PE methods in terms of forces…then it begins to make sense why some changes in routine produces gains…and some not.

Lets take a second example;

We have a very enthusiastic newbie who saw a soda can sized dick on Thunders, that was produced by clamping…naturally, with his gal being hooked on diet Pepsi…he decided to go the clamping route.

So he starts off sensibly with one or two minutes of clamping for the first day…before he jumps in head first with 3 sets of 10 minutes.

Our newbie is a lucky man, and he doesn’t cause any major injuries (there’s a little discoloration, hes willing to live with that) with his routine.

He probably even gets some expansion…but because he moved to such high forces so rapidly, he stimulates a survival reaction in his unit, causing a rapid toughening, and soon his cock is very resistant to further growth.

What method could our friend possibly resort to that will result in growth for this penis that out of the need for survival, toughened very well and very fast…probably nothing!

Because he STARTED at the highest pressure levels…every other method will not have the force needed to produce further changes.

So, out of frustration he tries pumping…nothing. Jelquing…nothing…maybe even heavy hanging…if he’s lucky he gets nothing… instead of an injury.

And that’s if he is wise enough to not overdo any of these methods and cause ADDITIONAL tissue contraction/reaction!

I’m creating scenarios here out of my imagination, but they are pieces of stories from Thunders we have all read.

My point is… I think it would allow us to put together a PRODUCTIVE routine, if we look at the force levels we are using and use them in the proper sequence.

IF you wish to go the high force route, understand combining with low force PE methods will probably not be very effective (not including ADS and ADC…that’s another discussion).

And when you run into a plateau with high force PE… it is a waste of time to go back to low force…probably the only option is a deconditoning break.

If you wish to go low force…then be very observant to make sure you don’t cross that threshold and are getting toughening and contraction.

If you plateau with low force…you STILL have the option to go to a high force routine and make gains.

Just be aware that the price will be a lengthy deconditioning break once you plateau again.

I think that it may turn out that a low force plateau may also benefit from a decon break, but I suspect it would require a much shorter break to allow you to begin to make gains again.

So in summary, each methodology has force ranges.

Take the time to decide what type of approach you are choosing, then use the appropriate plan when you hit a plateau.

The more we understand what we are doing, the less time we will waste in improper use of methodologies and counter productive additional tissue toughening… and the sooner we can get back to growing that 9X7!!! :)

Another great post Sparkyx, but how long do you think a lengthy deconditioning should be? 2 or 3 weeks?

spakyx,
Those are some good thoughts. I’ve had similar thoughts during times I’ve toyed with clamping, it seemed like the end of the road to PE pressure wise. I didn’t want to be at the end, so I wasn’t comfortable doing clamping and stopped.

I really think there is a limit to how much can be gained, and when some bust their asses and aren’t blessed by the PE gods they do more and more until they go backwards. I do know how to apply force out of this world with just my hands, but have been very hesitant about describing the hows due to my above thoughts.

I think there is a tendency to make things not completely understood highly complicated, I see that a lot here, not that it’s bad, I’m assuming it is just human nature. When it comes down to it, this business is either being done as a hobby or being done to make gains. Sometimes, I get in a rut where it seems like a hobby and when I realize it I go back to doing things that aren’t so enjoyable or comfortable.

:up:

:nodding:

My understanding is that it is about 2-3 months if you have been toughened by really high forces like heavy hanging or full pressure clamping.

I think if you have been pumping, and kept it under 5 in hg…3 weeks might be plenty.

I had proposed a elasticity meter (home version) that might shed light on this…but I haven’t done it yet.

Xeno…whats your take on the deconditioning?

I think we’re making progress, and you’re right, the more we understand a thing, the simpler we can discuss it.

Yeah, I really have to discipline myself to keep from turning a precisely devised workout into a much longer play session, or random experiment I throw in at the last minute…I can’t tell you how many potentially good routines I ruined because of it! :)

I wish I had time to do some research before posting, but I don’t.
Sparky, Have you ever looked into bone remodeling and the way that might correlate with PE?
It is what I picture concerning penis growth.
In general, bone is similar to tunica or ligament in the sense it is highly noncellular matrix with cells that produce new material (fibroblasts to generate collagen in ligament, or osteoblasts to lay down new bone).
Bone grows thicker and stronger when under stress. That is why women with osteoporosis need to walk and do exercise to strengthen bones. People think of bones as dead sticks, but they are living tissue. Weight lifters have bones that match their muscles. I picture that the same phenomena would occur in the penis.
Stress would induce new tissue growth. The key, I think, is to make sure that new tissue adds to size, and doesn’t just add to the strength or thickness of the tunica or ligaments. That is why wrapping, ads, or extended periods of engorgement, would help by controlling how and where the new tissue is deposited.
Some guys put so much stress on their penises, but don’t gain, because they are thickening the tisue but not adding to the overall length or girth. Other guys are adding to their tunicas and ligaments in a way that increases penis size. So, how to control the new growth that we induce is a key point I think.
This is just the very beginning seed of a theory I haven’t researched, but perhaps you have some thoughts.

I too think this is what we should be trying for.

Just like when you get fat, the slow mild stress makes skin grow.

They can make bone grow the same way.

The only thing is the penis is a complex organ, not just a single tissue.

I think we are as a communtity getting closer all the time.

I would like to think that if we find the perfect “magic” combination of force/time/recovery…we could achieve almost unlimited growth…but I’d be happy with a 10X8!!! :)

Those 2-3 month guidelines originally came from Shiver’s first hand experience and experimentation with decon breaks. His routine consisted of, “very thorough warm up with just a few minutes stretching” (20 minutes of heat, then 4 x 30 seconds of stretching, 1on, 2off). I wouldn’t consider that “really high forces like heavy hanging or full pressure clamping “.

Yeah…thats what I’m quoting…for lack of anythink else.

Do you have any addtional info that you feel is good?

I really think this is important to know, especially now that I think that a decon break is the only solution to get past plateaus caused by heavy forces.

Based on my reading and experimentation, I’d say 6-12 weeks is a good starting point. Heavy hangers and guys who have been in plateau for a while may require more than twelve. On the other end, I think even low-force guys are probably going to end up wasting their time with less than six weeks off.

OK, sounds good.

After 12 weeks, how do you determine if more is needed?

How do you determine when you are properly deconditioned?

I know that this is really subjective, and I can’t say I’ve even convinced myself that it is true, but I’ve come to think that the best force to use is the one just large enough to give you a “stretched” feeling. The feeling I shoot for is not “fatigue,” but a pulling feeling like I get in my hamstrings when I stretch my muscles.

I believe I’ve associated gentle stretching like this, repeated very consistently, with the gains I’ve gotten in the past year. I tend to get this feeling in the 12-15# range, when hanging SO.

Although I am inclined to agree with Sparkyx regarding the futility of using less force after more force fails to produce gains, I can think of a couple of examples where dropping the force has produced gains. Andrew69 (now A69) never gained from heavy hanging (30# range), but did manage to pack on some gains when he dropped the weight to 15#.

I also gained (0.5” BPEL) after dropping the weight (from 22# to 12-15#), but I took off several months in between. I also jelqed during the time I was getting the gains, so jelqing may be at least partially responsible.

YES.

I definitely think less force can produce gains where more force hasn’t…but I believe in most cases, a decon is needed.

Lets say someone was hanging 30 lbs for 3 months with no progress. Lets say he says “hell with it” and goes to 15 minutes of easy jelquing daily.

I think that the jelquing force may be low enough to allow a type of deconditioning…and maybe after 4 weeks he starts to gain.

If there is no chance of deconditioning…if the lower force is not SUFFICIENTLY low to allow the tissue to recover…than no…I don’t think you can see gains.