The Numbness Poll

>OK I just went by the date of the Article here, where and when was it shown first? <

Publicly: 11-06-2003, 03:42 PM at Thunders Place PE Forums. But there is a vast secret PE society you know nothing about. If I say any more you will be in grave danger.

>Old news, maybe I should start ragging on you?<

Please don’t. That wouldn’t be a fair fight. But I’m honored to be thought of in such prestigeous company.

>I’m sure I can improve on the wench design, I have a couple of fag packets and some tape handy.<

Why the nasty tone? If I cared at all about what you think of my contribution here mem I might be offended, but I’ll let your cheap comment speak for itself. You might want to work harder at concealing your agenda, friend.

>anonymous should be allowed the right to use anything any way he wants, as should anyone. <

Although my comment was to anonymous (not memento) it was meant to be taken as a general rule. Regardless, why not dispense with the heroics and leave it to anonymous to interpret my point.

Thanks, my teachers in school always told me I was “special”. :D

5.5 or 6 months, who gives a fuck really, we all knew what you were looking for. Maybe terms like ‘Experienced’ and ‘Newbie’ could replace the static time increments.

Primarily The Grip is a hanger. It grasps the head with the help of a vacuum and, since no clamping is needed, I would think it should have the lowest incidence of numbness.

Cap,

>But there is a vast secret PE society you know nothing about. If I say any more you will be in grave danger.<

Does this mean I have to start running handcuffed across Scotland.

>You might want to work harder at concealing your agenda, friend.<

Sure thing, sorry Cap. Which classes did you go to? Maybe I can sign up?

>why not dispense with the heroics and leave it to anonymous to interpret my point<

Its my job to stand up for the members of this community when they are in peril (or try and beat them senseless in a pack like testosterone fuelled thing with the other mods).

Stevie,

OK I’ll give you that.

Angel,

Sounds like an Ads device to me but its a long time since I read up on it and I’m just the idiot who posted the poll, you have to make sense of it. I would that suggest it goes under other hangers.

Your innapropriate comments are becoming tiresome memento.

If selflessly sharing a worthwhile idea and tirelessly working to help guys utilize that idea constitutes an agenda, I plead guilty.

If rolling my eyes at a transparent attempt by a moderator to draw attention to himself by fanning the flames of hysteria with a self-aggrandizing and useless poll indicates an agenda, I plead guilty.

If feeling sad because attitudes like yours are the very reason good people with plenty to contribute here clam up, or ultimately part with this forum points to an agenda, I am guilty as charged.

Given the context you have no idea of how ironic that comment is. Or maybe you do - which would be, and I do not overstate this, frightening.

Take note of the absence of smilies here memento. I am fast becoming fed up with the back biting culture that has taken root here at Thunders Place. If you want to genuinely know my agenda, do a search on my posts and note on your pinkie finger the number of times I have said anything but the most flattering and encouraging things to and about others and their contributions to PE.
I suggest you then use that sentiment as a stopgap measure when you dare to equate peoples work with pigs and rubbish.

Cap,

Woah there friend. What’s the deal? Am I missing something here?

I don’t think mem ever said anything about an agenda of yours. He was quoting you when he wrote:

>You might want to work harder at concealing your agenda, friend.<

Then you wrote:

>If selflessly sharing a worthwhile idea and tirelessly working to help guys utilize that idea constitutes an agenda, I plead guilty.<

mem never said anthing about an agenda to my knowledge. He was simply referring to your writing.

Perhaps I am missing something. Nothing new there. But I did not see any problems until your post above. I for one appreciate everything you have done in this section, and at Thunders in general. I am sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of guys that agree with me. If something is bothering you, get it out. Let’s nip it in the bud.

But unless there is something of which I am not aware, I do not think mem means anything negative to you or anyone else. Please remember, he is from England. Allowances must be made for the dry wit. He cannot help it, it was the way he was raised. Further, it seems the only negative things he has said was about the Bib and AFB. I am really lost.

All the best,

Bigger

Cap, I appreciate the work you put in to design the Wench more than almost anything anybody else has contributed here. I really don’t think mem was trying to single out the Wench in this thread. Instead, he was trying to determine if a certain hanger in combination with experience level has contributed to more of the numbness issues we have seen lately.

Losing sensation in you dick is about the worst thing that can happen in the world of PE, so it’s extremely important to determine what the cause is and work on preventing it. I think this poll is good for that. For example, if it turns out that the AFB hanger causes numbness in guys who use it for more than six months, then it serve as an alert for guys using it and give them something to consider for the future. If the results indicate that newbies using the Wench are experiencing numbness, then us more experienced Wench users need to think about concentrating our advice in that area when responding to and creating new posts on the subject.

I don’t see any agendas by either party here and think it’s ridiculous on both parts to suggest so. I know how easy it is to misread someone’s humor and cause unneeded tension. Not a good thing at all.

Jeez Louise Cap,

What Bigger and Stevie said.

Numbness seems to be among us and though this poll is not a brilliant way of finding out why, it’s one way we have to encourage people to post about why and how they got and conquered any numbness. It came out of another thread I was in with Stevie, and I guess before that some of the people who’ve posted about their recent experiences.

Bigger, Stevie-

I will take your comments to heart because I respect the two of you as exceptional people who have flawlessly expressed nothing but the most upright intentions as long as I have known you both.
I genuinely appreciate the camaraderie. It is the very thing that first attracted me to this forum, and to this day is the very thing that keeps me here.
I now feel more indebted to you two guys than ever before.

-Cap

Mem,

To begin, I want to first apologize to you for this statement:

>If rolling my eyes at a transparent attempt by a moderator to draw attention to himself by fanning the flames of hysteria with a self-aggrandizing and useless poll indicates an agenda, I plead guilty.<

I make a great effort to carefully measure my words when confronting another member so as to avoid the personal trumping the point. I fucked up there - no excuses, and I apologize.

If you are willing I would prefer to drop the back and forth about agendas. For the record, and despite my “status” I can assure you that none exist beyond my hope that guys who need a leg up on accomplishing their goals can do so with ease, safety, support, and without being taken advantage of. A reading of the record will support this ad nauseum.
Why I ever pointed that very finger at you has to do with your dig that you can improve the Wench by strapping junk to your unit - and worse it was said in a climate (this thread) that I sincerely believe should be left free of such commentary, especially by the guy moderating the thread.

Other comments concerned me that what could and should be a serious attempt at bettering a big concern of mine was becoming a joke. I understand your proclivity for sarcasm and caustic humour - believe me, of all people I understand - but if you genuinely hope for even a semblance of accuracy on this issue I have to say with all due respect that I think you got off on the wrong foot.

My point about attitudes and the atmosphere here at TP probably belongs in another thread for another time, but given your own repeated jokes about the matter you certainly must know that it exists beyond the carping of a few malcontents and banned members. The pile-ons are not very funny to those at the bottom of the pile, and a lot of people have been hurt by this - I suspect even more have been cowed into silence. This should be beneath a forum that prides itself on its civility and use of the Queens English.
This is the least of my issues, but I see no harm in planting the seed here given the heat of this thread.

So, about this poll and how it relates to the issue of numbness: I have to say that I am convinced that any poll and its “results” is not only futile in garnering a consensus it is more likely to divert attention from the real culprit(s).
There are simply too many mitigating factors in attendance for us to get anywhere near hitting the side of the barn let alone the bullseye. As an example, nowhere does this poll query recent or past injuries that - if you do a just little research - have a tendency to reoccur when a guy starts hanging. Nowhere is weight or time and the misuse of these ever-present hanging factors noted.
I could go on and on but the fact remains that even if 100% of these injuries came while guys were using any single device short of a noose it would do little to help alleviate the problem.
Bigger recently noted that he believes there are less injuries now than when he was first active. Combine that with the ever growing popularity of PE and the easy accessibility of the popular homebrew devices available and a clearer picture begins to emerge of what is happening here. Abusus non tollit usum.
(and forgive the pretentiousness)

I take none of this personally; for better or worse. I watch very carefully these incidents and do my best to avoid involvement for fear of influencing an injured guy’s take on what has occurred. But I am paying as close attention to this matter as anyone, if not more.
Thunder once commented that combining injury stories might work well toward finding a common denominator, and I completely agree. But if this is an attempt at that I think it is being gone about all wrong. Better would be a in-depth sticky thread that is solely devoted to the issue of numbing injuries, the members history, their habits, and their devices - minus the restrictions and inaccuracies of a multiple choice poll, and without the wise-cracks and frivolity.

My best wishes, Mem - I hope there are no hard feelings.
-Cap

Cap,

No problem.

Lets get back to the poll and if anyone has extra info beyond the votes they post, please add them as Cap points out the poll is a rough guide and the more info you can post the better.

So far we have 4 numbness votes for the Bib hanger and only one explanation (thanks anonymous) and 6 numbness votes for the Wench and again only one explanation (thanks Philadelph).

One thing thats interesting is that all the injuries seem to come early on, so is there a lack of good info easily available? Do people rush into hanging? And with the Wench are people following the construction guidelines faithfully?

Anything you can do to fill in the blanks would be great.

First, let me say that I am posting because I encountered numbness. And if a consensus can be reached as to a common denominator to be avoided, that is my sole purpose in posting. It is not my intention to persecute or criticize anyone here, whether it be a hanger’s creator or a user of a particular hanger.

>>Questions, questions :D

When you were doing the V’s did you notice the hanger twist or ride up further than normal?<<

hmmmm… To be honest, rarely am I completely ‘square’ in the Hanger. But I can feel the CC’s that are above the Hanger, so I manually twist myself to completely straight. So, right after I applied the Hanger, the twisting was no different than usual. But I will say that after A-fulcrums, I was rotated to the right. After a set of V’s, I ended the set in the same position that I started.

>>Is that when you upped the tightness?<<

‘Riding up and tightness’? I need to clarify that I had an OTS set-up that let me hang more like manual stretching than hanging a constant weight. I have a high-back chair, and I use a webbed belt that the weight is looped through. The combination allows me to create enough tension between the the chair and the belt that the weight can either be more or less than it actually is.

So, if I am OTS-ing, trying to reach fatigue and am creating a lot of tension with the chair and belt, I am use to tightening a good bit. Before the fulcrums there was never a problem with numbness. So, I certainly tightened enough to avoid slippage. I can’t say for sure if the tightening aggravated/ accelerated the numbness from the fulcrums?

>>Have you completely recovered now?<<

For the most part, yeah. The left, underside is still ever-so-slightly muted, though.

>>How long has the numbness carried on?<<

I started hanging again on 3/28/04, after getting the Hanger back from Bib. I didn’t record the exact date that there was undeniable numbness, but it was within a week. I stopped hanging last Monday on 4/12.

>>How quickly did you notice the numbness come on (did it sneak up on you)?<<

I thought all was fine until I finished hanging for the day and un-wrapped. At that point, I noticed that I was very numb. I rubbed the glans with things of varying roughness to see how much sensation I had. I was very numb. But since I read that that has happened to others, who regained sensitivity, I simply went to bed not very alarmed.

After that I monitored sensitivity after each set. I thought I could ride out the numbness and still add new stress. But I seemed only to keep aggravating the numbness. So I have decided to just take a break until everything is 100% normal. I may just turn this into an extended break and re-start completely de-conditioned.

I have read YGuy and SS4 say that they successfully include fulcrums into their routines. I would be interested to know how they do so, without numbness? Maybe I was over-ambitious with the weight used (10lbs to start, until fatigue began. At which point I would lower the weight accordingly)?

Capn,

Abus-o what-o tol…? Being a moderately street-wise dude who has been around the block once or twice, I know a little spanish. But using it’s precursor - I’m thrown a little bit :)

anonymous,

Thanks again. Great info, you appear to be the main contributor to this thread.

Anonymous, like mem said, thanks for sharing your experience.

Can you elaborate on the amount of tightness you used? Did you really crank down the hanger to make sure it was grabbing internal tissue, or was your glans taking a majority of the pressure?

My thought about numbness is that it’s mainly the result of hangers being attached too loose. Also, starting with higher weights probably exaggerates the effect.

>>Can you elaborate on the amount of tightness you used?<<

I tighten a good deal.

>>Did you really crank down the hanger to make sure it was grabbing internal tissue, or was your glans taking a majority of the pressure?<<

If anything I might border on over-tightneing as opposed to not tightening enough. I have a squeeze the glans technique that prevents the glans from balloning. And while the weight ‘rests on the shoulders’, as Bib says, there is not unusual pressure on the glans.

The BH is designed to not put pressure on the dorsal nerve, and my numbness was not primarily on the top. The top-side did loose a little sensitivity, but as I said, the left, under-side was most affected.

>>My thought about numbness is that it’s mainly the result of hangers being attached too loose. Also, starting with higher weights probably exaggerates the effect.<<

Well, I tried the swimcap method before I found this place. It was found from a miscellaneous Tom Hubbard? page. He said that he was typing while hanging 10lbs. So I thought that getting to substantial weight was the path to gaining.

That was before I began reading Bib’s views that time in the fatigued state is superior to amount of weight used. So I was already use to 10-12.5lbs with the swimcap. I tried to use similar weight when I first got the BH, but since I was not conditioned to hang from the shaft I experienced difficulty with the transition.

In my zeal to get to a significant weight with the swimcap, I may have inadvertently toughened the tissues as opposed to lengthening them?

Possibly, but probably not, especially if you only spent a limited amount of time hanging with the swimcap.

So do you think your numbness issues were a result of using the swimcap at all? Could it have possibly caused nerve damage that was later aggravated when you switched to the BH?