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The Physics of Water Pumping

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Originally Posted by mo1258
To make this thread more complicated, I suggest there might be more involved with water pumping than just physics (i.e. fluid dynamics and heat). As we all know, the penis is a complex part of anatomy - various types of tissues, vessels, fluids and nerves (sympathetic and parasympathetic).

Consider: how and why do fingers and toes wrinkle when under water? I am not saying the penis is the same as fingers and toes, but rather using this example to illustrate a concept.

For well over a 100 years (and even today), researchers have theorized how fingers and toes wrinkle under water:
temperature?
keratin absorbing water?
osmotic pressure?
vasoconstriction?
electrolyte balance?
neurological influence?

I will avoid all the theory details and skip to a few observations to make my point: At one time researchers were convinced keratin was the answer and they were later proven to be wrong. People with nerve damage in some fingers but not others noted that the nerve damaged fingers did not wrinkle. If electrolytes are involved then why do fingers wrinkle and other submerged skin does not? Lots of questions remain unanswered about this anatomical phenomena.

So, my point? The penis underwater might have a lot more going on than just environmental pressure and temperature (physics). I suspect biochemical and neurological influences contribute to the anecdotal evidence that water pumping produces less edema.

Possibly. Well actually likely to some extent or another. But I would say primarily it is a mechanical process relying on physics. At least the acute effects anyway.

gauge accuracy

Originally Posted by marinera
Are you sure your gauges work fine guys?

Marinera, I am convinced the accuracy of the Mr Fantastic gauge (actually digital readout) is very good and probably to 0.1”Hg. It is part of the vacuum process controller that operates the machine.

progress

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
That range is still probably good. Is there any way to have the mr. Fantastic hold the stretch very briefly at the very top?

Roots, Did some experimenting last night and found a neat way to hold the vacuum at the top. I decided to try out your advice to go for longer pump cycles.

I turned the leak valve way down and ran the pump at a very low speed. I found a sweet spot where the vacuum would get near the max preset value (15” in this case) but not quite get there. I let it run there for about a min and then momentarily upped the speed a tad. That got it up to max and switched off the pump. I also found I had to increase the min vacuum preset (to 4.5”) to make sure the pump down cycle triggered the pump switch on again. At the low leak rate I found otherwise the vacuum tended to stay above the preset.

I did a 60 min session using the silicone sleeve and got a great stretch and NO edema or even foreskin fluid retention as I folded back my foreskin under the sleeve. The only other point of note is that the vacuum tended to drag the sleeve forward over my glans so the bit of the shaft near the base was exposed. I could have made sure the sleeve extended under the silicone base ring that the cylinder fits into but chose not to so I could get a better stretch.

Next morning I have a nice chubby low hanging flaccid and no ill effects so I feel I have made progress.

Originally Posted by Serenity73
You have lymph vessels everywhere you have capillaries. Interstitial fluid can generally move freely around the cells/tissue so it will tend to distribute itself evenly. It only pools locally when there’s an excess concentration of protein (which are supposed to be removed by the lymph system as well).

Regarding the glans: Have you every done 60 minutes in air? Or 30 in water? It could also be a sign that the meatus is more sensitive and swells quicker than the surrounding tissue.

Serenity, thanks for the advice. I have no training in biological science ( I have studied physics) so your insights are valuable to me.

The meatus issue is curious though. I got swelling in the air pump after 30 mins (admittedly fairly minor) but no swelling in the water pump after 60 mins. To me that suggests water pumping is gentler to the glans of which the meatus is part’. Even in my my last session where I used longer cycles my glans was fine.

Originally Posted by mo1258
Regarding threads staying on topic - I’m NOT the thread police but in the long term (5 years from now) mixing too many topics on 1 thread makes it difficult to research a single topic such as “dynamic pumping” since key words used for search results are not always present in every relevant post of a mixed topic thread. However, a thread like this one is very valuable (regardless of mixed topics) because of the insightful men participating - Thank You!

Mo that is a valid point. To be fair on Mr Fantastic, I will post on his thread with a reference to this thread so a reader can find our discussion.

Originally Posted by capernicus1
Agreed, nearly 5 years of experience doing both air and water and at the same pressure edema and bruising/red spots are less with water.
If the actual pressure is the same there must be something else at work.

I agree. My meatus issue supports this. From a physics point of view I suspect there is some sort of boundary effect where the water or air meets the penis skin. Especially with dynamic pumping I also suspect the dynamics come into play into relation to the compressibility (or lack of it). The forces on the penis are not always static. Rootsnatty’s advice about short cycle vs longer cycle stretching are an example of the impact of dynamics.

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
Austfred, the lymphatic system moves lymph around through smooth muscle contractions and valves, and also through skeletal muscle contractions, circulatory system pulses, capillary action, and gravity. Fluids travel into the lymph capillaries one way through cells that act as doors. Fluid cannot travel back out this way as a higher pressure inside the lymph vessel relative to the outside causes these “doors” to close tighter. When pressure within a lymph vessel becomes high enough, however, it can escape back out through reverse osmosis and leakage through the valves. This contributes to edema.

Edema, however, is mostly caused by the inflow of interstitial fluid from the body. The lymphatic system is mainly there to carry overabundant fluid back to the blood stream. When we pump, the vacuum causes lymph to push into the lymph vessels in the penis and interstitial fluid to seep into the soft tissues as well. My point in going into all this is that edema is a complicated process and it is hard to say what it is about the fulcrum stretches that are causing it. But you know they do, and you seem to have found ways to mitigate it, and that’s really all that matters. :)

Serenity, nice to see you back! I basically agree with what you are saying. And it is definitely true of purely static pumping. The more a system is filled with liquid and the less with gas, however, the less penile expansion will need to take place to equalize the pressure. So unless you are constantly eyeballing the gauge to keep pressure constant you will have an expand quickly-expand slowly until pressure is equalized-hold scenario until you pump again to evacuate more fluid. If you re-pump every five minutes with a system mostly filled with water, and you aren’t pumping to some absurd pressure, you will minimize the gradual expansion phase where most lymph and other fluid enters the soft tissues.

Also, there is a threshold for edema production with water pumping, I believe. That is, lymph has to travel across membranes, there is positive water column pressure acting on the penis, the water is warm, the water has a much higher heat transfer coefficient and heat flux density than air, etc. The net effect of these factors is a minimum safe vacuum where edema is minimal, and the less you breach this arbitrary threshold, the less edema you will produce.

Roots, makes sense to me. Your threshold is consistent with my observation that I did not get edemas until I increased the session time. However the sleeve seems to be the go.

Originally Posted by austfred
Roots, Did some experimenting last night and found a neat way to hold the vacuum at the top. I decided to try out your advice to go for longer pump cycles.

I turned the leak valve way down and ran the pump at a very low speed. I found a sweet spot where the vacuum would get near the max preset value (15” in this case) but not quite get there. I let it run there for about a min and then momentarily upped the speed a tad. That got it up to max and switched off the pump. I also found I had to increase the min vacuum preset (to 4.5”) to make sure the pump down cycle triggered the pump switch on again. At the low leak rate I found otherwise the vacuum tended to stay above the preset.

I did a 60 min session using the silicone sleeve and got a great stretch and NO edema or even foreskin fluid retention as I folded back my foreskin under the sleeve. The only other point of note is that the vacuum tended to drag the sleeve forward over my glans so the bit of the shaft near the base was exposed. I could have made sure the sleeve extended under the silicone base ring that the cylinder fits into but chose not to so I could get a better stretch.

Next morning I have a nice chubby low hanging flaccid and no ill effects so I feel I have made progress.

That is excellent to hear! Sounds like its a bit more attention to get it to do exactly what you want, but that sounds like a much better stretch/expansion cycle. And still no edema so it sounds like you are in the sweet spot.

Originally Posted by austfred
Serenity, thanks for the advice. I have no training in biological science ( I have studied physics) so your insights are valuable to me.

The meatus issue is curious though. I got swelling in the air pump after 30 mins (admittedly fairly minor) but no swelling in the water pump after 60 mins. To me that suggests water pumping is gentler to the glans of which the meatus is part’. Even in my my last session where I used longer cycles my glans was fine.

What I mean is that the meatus swells first, followed by the rest of the glans tissue. Once all of it has swelled, it looks proportionally normal.

Originally Posted by austfred
I agree. My meatus issue supports this. From a physics point of view I suspect there is some sort of boundary effect where the water or air meets the penis skin. Especially with dynamic pumping I also suspect the dynamics come into play into relation to the compressibility (or lack of it). The forces on the penis are not always static. Rootsnatty’s advice about short cycle vs longer cycle stretching are an example of the impact of dynamics.

Only insofar as the frequency range is concerned. Certainly, from a practical point of view, a vacuum device will typically be able to do much shorter cycles with water, but the same thing can be reproduced with air and a stronger device.
Regarding any effect at the boundary, we’ll have to just disagree on that. I can’t think of a way to prove that there’s none.

Good to hear that you’re responding well to the long cycles. I spent all of 5 months earlier this year experimenting with dynamic pumping (manually, with a hand pump) with no results to show for it. I went through a wide range of cycle durations, though I focused mostly on the time held at the top vacuum level. I never really attempted a very slow buildup. Perhaps that’s something worth looking into.

Serenity73]

>What I mean is that the meatus swells first, followed by the rest of the glans tissue. Once all of it has swelled, it looks proportionally normal.

I understand what you are writing. Hard to argue either way My glans seems fine. No spots etc.

>Only insofar as the frequency range is concerned. Certainly, from a practical point of view, a vacuum device will typically be able to do much shorter cycles with water, but the same thing can be reproduced with air and a stronger device. Regarding any effect at the boundary, we’ll have to just disagree on that. I can’t think of a way to prove that there’s none.

I’m just looking for an explanation why many seem to find water pumping more effective

>Good to hear that you’re responding well to the long cycles. I spent all of 5 months earlier this year experimenting with dynamic pumping (manually, with a hand pump) with no results to show for it. I went through a wide range of cycle durations, though I focused mostly on the time held at the top vacuum level. I never really attempted a very slow buildup. Perhaps that’s something worth looking into.

I started doing what you have been after reading HomewrJS’s thread. I noticed better EQ and convinced me to get a Mr Fantastic pump.

THe main benefits of the original air pump are ease of use and precision . I am still exploring the water pump. The warmth is a benefit and I certainly seem to be able to have longer sessions but I expect there are other benefits as we are discussing here.

Austfred, here is a summary of the benefits of water pumping:

Heat
1) the medium itself is warm

2) water has better thermal properties than air when it comes to its effectiveness in PE. It has a heat transfer coefficient and heat flux density many times greater than air. This means that large amounts of heat energy travel across the water’s surface to act on the penis, and that water is a good conductor of heat energy. That is, water is a very good conductor of large quantities of heat energy, while air is actually a very good insulator.

Physical Properties
1) water will not compress or expand. This has many implications that vary depending on the pumping method and the amount of water in the system:

Completely water filled: water can only be evacuated as the penis becomes ready to expand. A truly static pumping environment would be almost impossible to achieve without an electric motor, so basically all pump protocols here are going to be intermittent. Here, the water works to constrict fluid buildup as I described in the original post.

Note, a bathmate does not count here unless you hold the bellows completely still after each pump - the bellows’ need to expand creates a constant vacuum, even if no air is in the system.

Partially water filled: the amount of water effects the net expansion and compression possible in the system. More water means less expansion and compression system-wide. More water means each pump will increase vacuum more and the vacuum will fall to equilibrium faster as the penis expands in the cylinder. The less water, the easier it becomes to sustain a quasi-static level of vacuum.

Static vacuum: as Serenity has been pointing out, in this state of static vacuum, this property of water has little effect on the penis.

2) water column pressure: this is related to the property above as the density of water does not change under a vacuum, so you will always get this effect. The weight of Water pushing down creates positive pressure and a constricting effect. This constricting effect depends only on the height of the water column at a point in the system, so this positive pressure gradient will remain constant as long as tube orientation doesn’t change and the height of the water column remains constant.

Originally Posted by 8incyclops
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Is it really this loud? Or is it the video?

`Think it must be how your computer reacts to the video. East to change the sound volume. The pump itself is clearly audible if you run it full speed but not really loud. However the way I use it with the pump speed down it is barely audible.

Originally Posted by austfred
`Think it must be how your computer reacts to the video. East to change the sound volume. The pump itself is clearly audible if you run it full speed but not really loud. However the way I use it with the pump speed down it is barely audible.

Thanks is this exactly how you go about water pumping? I always thought you would fill the tubes yourself but on the video the tube fills the cylinders,Also I can’t find the answer what is the highest pressure you can reach on the mr fantastic pump? With the dp-4000 I think max is 15 hgs

Sorry everyone, I got my typing mixed up. Meant to say I want tunica expansion faster than edema, not slower.. So a slower pump speed will hopefully slow down edema buildup.

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