More Hanging Sets or Adding Extender

Iamaru, thank you for actually providing a concise, either-or answer to my question! So far you are the only one. Not knocking the other responses because, as I said, they generated a great discussion/debate.

‘If it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ - agreed.

Not being able to say which is better - can anyone really answer that though? “Better” is so relative. What works for one guy might not work for another. I’ve often heard hanging called the ultimate length exercise in the years I have been reading the forum here, but I’ve seen people write that they gave it the old college try (sometimes with months of progression and proper hanging practices) and got zero gains from it. Same with extenders. I’ve even seen a few people who could gain with an extender but not a hanger which utterly perplexes me unless they just maxed out their ability to grow before making the switch, but it is more likely proof that the penis is a complex structure that does not play by all the rules that biomechanics has laid out for other bodily structures containing fibrous connective tissue (though I still would argue it plays by most of them except in a few uncommon instances). Also, there are the practical considerations - it doesn’t matter if an extender would work better for you if you can’t afford one, or maybe you can’t hang and need to use an extender because of the SLIGHTLY better stealthiness it provides. It’s just good to hear what is working for you, because hanging has been working for me in a BIG way in a very short time. Out of this maybe I can conclude that our penises are similar and should be friends.. ;) I mean they might be similar so your input really carries weight when you give me advice. And I really like the idea of adding additional sets to reach fatigue at lower weights because that increases the time I can spend progressing at a certain angle/method of attack before the weights become too heavy, threaten to tear my dick off regardless of how conditioned it is, and I have to switch-up my approach. Though unlikely, having to switch to tunica work before my ligs are maximally lengthened because I am hanging 60 pounds already at the BTC angle and have no more room to progress would be less than ideal.

Marinera, honestly I have never seriously thought about extenders, but your thoughts have changed my mind. It seems like hangers are always the go-to devices post-newb PE, but those results are crazy. It IS only two people, and there seem to be similar results due to hanging in a few documented cases here, though.

Maybe it is how it is used? Extenders, for whatever reason, seemed less useful (I feel like I read a few too many threads about no results from extenders), but I also admit I have not researched them as much as I should have. I also wish I could covertly extend for hours per day, but I can’t. What would you recommend in that case?

marinera,

Picture proof is to my mind problematic and always has been. I think it’s a very powerful tool for those people who take the pictures. They know what they did when measuring and for them it’s very definite proof. It also helps to convince some people that PE is possible and maybe that helps them. So there are several positives to it. However it’s so easy to game, if one so desires or even if one subconsciously desires. I would simply suggest that you attempt to replicate the gains shown in the pictures you link. I think you would find it fairly easy to produce a set of pics to the same standard that show the gains above on the same day.

That said, I think cantlook is a good example for your point, though probably an outlier. It is interesting that we read the same forum and presumably a lot of the same posts and come to entirely different conclusions. I read it and see negative results from extender usage, including increased injuries from people slapping on an extender without understanding what they are doing and lack off or no gains. What am I missing?

Maybe the reason there are more extender that hanging pics is because your impressions of hanging in comparison to extenders largely mirrors the trend in usage. Extenders are used by far more people and when hanging was the more dominant form, digital cameras were less abundant. Certainly, when I started PE, I didn’t have a digital camera.

>Not to sound harsh, but only somebody who has no experience with both techniques can make such a statement. Hanging is the primitive and naive approach to prolonged steady tension, exenders are the enlightened and modern approach. <

Yes, I’ve used both extenders and hangers. This is what I mean, in terms of comparison:

Both are aiming at producing a static load
Both methods allow for fulcrum points.
Some hangers are capable of being used at much greater load than extenders
Hangers allow for a precise amount of load, whereas though I believe there are extenders sold that allow this too, the majority are sold without this.
Hangers are generally used in short 20 minute sets, whereas extenders are often used unsafely for longer periods (even at high tension).

So if a hanger were used for the same periods, in the same manner and the same tensions as an extender, I don’t think results would differ. Do you? If so, why? It’s worth pointing out that my preferred method of stretching (manual) suffers from a lot of the same deficiencies as extenders but maybe adds constant minor fluctuations in stress.

Your description of hangers is somewhat at odds with what most hangers do, though I get your point, hanging is generally a repeated short set affair, whereas, extenders are seen as all day devices. I think rootsnatty explained elastic and plastic deformation better than me.

rootsnatty,

Badly explained on my part, I think. I’m not suggesting elastic deformation as a route to gaining, I’m suggesting dynamically modifying the tissue that is taking the load, even slightly. You’ll be doing this already, as you shift position. The weight will not always be borne by the same tissue equally. I’m simply suggesting taking a little control over that process.

Behemoth, rootsnatty et al,

When we talk of increasing flexibility in an athlete we are generally talking about increasing the range of motion of joints, so stretching muscles and their surrounding fascia, tendons, ligaments. These are the things that are in the way. In PE, the tissue we are stretching is actually what we are interested. Should we infer that we should treat these things differently, beyond what Behemoth stated earlier?

Mem, I’m pretty sure that, still these days, there are by far more people hanging than using an extender, at least on this forum. And the argument that hangers don’t have pics proof because they didn’t have cameras, well this really doesn’t stand IMO. As said the linked threads are just two of the many threads showing convincing proofs of gains through an extender, here another one just for the sake
After a Year of Auto Extender Use

but there many others. Similar proof for hangers, I can only remember Ironaddict69’ pics; he was using a vac-extender though, which allows for way longer sets that othe hangers allow, which shows the point I’m trying to make : long time x low force is what will work for most guys. The thought that hanging works better is linked to the ‘Morce force will work better and save time’ idea, which is a preconceived, naive thought. Saying ‘Hanging is extender on steroids’ or that ‘Hangers are generally used in short 20 minute sets, whereas extenders are often used unsafely for longer periods’ are childs of the same wrong thought IMO. Neither I see all these people having injuries from longer periods of using an extender, where I do see quite a good number of people being injured threough hanging : in both of cases, the most recurrent case is that the user is trying to apply too much force. And the idea that hanging is better because you know the weight you are applying is also a perspective mistake: you are interested in how far your penis is stretched, not in how tension you are applying. Start focusing on how much force your are applying, and you are already on the wrong path because you will start strengthening tissue instead than making it longer.

As for ‘healing’: tendon-like tissue, like tunica albuginea, begins to heal 7 days after the injury; so said, your penis is longer after the healing, not before; so it is laughable that hangers are worried in avoiding the healing.

<<So if a hanger were used for the same periods, in the same manner and the same tensions as an extender, I don’t think results would differ.<<
They wouldn’t differ, but most of hangers don’t allow for use in the same manner as extenders, this is the main point I’m trying to make. Realize that most of hangers make use a clamp-style hanger (like the Bib’ or the Captain Wench) which can’t be worn for more than 15-20 minutes at time. So when hanging, you stop the set at the beginning of the most productive phase - which is after 15- 30 minutes of continued tension.

Beside that, there are other reasons why hanging is not efficient, but I want to be short: the best alternative to extenders are vacuum based hangers, because they allow longer sets. Vacuum based hangers with very low tension are pretty much the same than extenders and used for similar amount of time will yeld comparable (or in some cases better) gains.

‘Plastic deformation’ is just used as a synonymous of ‘permanent deformation’. This doesn’t happen in the same way in engineering materials and living tissue. If you cause ‘plastic deformation’ of a 100 gram metallic bar, it will be longer and thinner and will weigh alwasys 100 grams. A living tissue who weighs 100 grams and undergo ‘plastic deformation’, will weigh more after the deformation and will also be a bit thicker, because living tissue will adapt to the external force or will be injured, where a metallic bar does not adapt.

People often look at tendon-strain reaction and say ‘after such amount of load x time you have plastic deformation, so this is what I am pursuing’; but the ‘plastic deformation’ they are referring to is generally referred to tendons not in vivo and such ‘plastic deformation’ is a major injury, which in vivo will result in scarring and in a less elastic tissue. Trust me, you don’t want this kind of plastic deformation (neither I am suggesting that this is what you meant, but the most common mistake that is made when transferring the idea of ‘plastic deformation’ from inanimate matter to living tissue).

First, let me say that an extender doesn’t means a commercial extender, there are instructions on this forum on how to make a good homemade extender for a few bucks.

So said, it is not mandatory to wear an extender for many hours per day, if you wear it for 1-2 hours per day consistently, gains will likely come, they just will come slower. if you are not a newbie and manual exercises aren't working anymore, I would suggest adding an extender to your manual based routine. Regular stretches+fulcrum stretches+jelqs+ extender would be about the best combo one could think of for length, IMO.

>Mem, I’m pretty sure that, still these days, there are by far more people hanging than using an extender, at least on this forum.<

I’m judging this by the relative business of the forums and mentions in Penis Enlargement Basics. Newbies start with extenders. If there are hoards of hidden hangers, maybe you are right but I think hanging generally is a dying form of PE and this was hastened here by Bib’s departure. I would not be surprised if extender users on this forum outnumber hangers tenfold or more.

>And the argument that hangers don’t have pics proof because they didn’t have cameras, well this really doesn’t stand IMO<

I think it’s very easy to forget technological changes. The first camera phone I had was a Nokia and that was only about 8 years ago. Smart phones only started to appear in 2006 and they explain the majority of pics these days. I think the lack of evidence you see for hanging is related to this and the sparsity of hangers. If you believe there are loads of people hanging, I can quite understand why you would think the evidence is lacking.

Now, back to the efficacy of photography as a method of proof. The linked thread shows after pics only and they are not measured, like your previous examples. The reported gains are 0.75” and I would put that at .25” beyond expected newbie gains. But do you think you could replicate the pictures you linked before? I’m sure you could. I think photography is just as capable, if not more capable, of providing suspect evidence.

I can’t actually remember a recent injury from hanging but again, I think this is probably because less people attempt it. You have to dig back a bit to find the really meaty hanging injuries. Prior to this board even.

The general advice to hangers is to use the lowest weight possible and only increase it when you stop gaining. Certainly, this is the advice seasoned hangers give. This seems at odds with your view of hanging.

I would generally agree with you that a vacuum based attachment can allow for longer than 20 minutes usage and I think that is also a source of injury for extender users. If even 99% of the time your dick is fine for several hours at a time, it means that you don’t check it the 1% of the time when your tissue is being damaged. So a 20 minute set for an extender is probably a very good plan too, to avoid injury.

It seems strange that the tunica waits 7 days and then starts healing. What’s it doing in the meantime? If you cut yourself and the body took a week off before starting repairs, people would be bleeding out (very slowly) all over the place. I remember a Sherlock Holmes plot (probably a Basil Rathbone movie) where Holmes was being killed very slowly by the baddy by having all his blood drained out of him.

Maybe a poll on this could be a good idea. A question like ‘Have you ever tried a) hanging b) extender c) both’.

The hangers forum was very active 8 years ago. It was very active even 3 years ago. It is only in recent times that started to die. Anyway, hangers claiming incredible gains have never stopped there has been a bunch of them untill very recent times and there are some even these days. But they never seem to have any pics to prove their claims, while for those who gained through extenders there are several unquestionable proofs. Even gains through manual exercises or pumping seems to have more evidence than gains through hanging.

My previous examples were measured. And those weren’t .75" (which is a big gain anyway) but over 1.5" in 5 months for Westsidetoni and near 2" for Cantlook.

0.25" is 0.5" more then claimed newbie gains, not the proven newbie gains. Let’s say it honestly, the supposed 0.5" of newbie gains is partly due to changes in measurement technique and desire of gains, look at some pics in the progress report sections and you can see it clearly, But beside that, if newbie gains are due mostly to better EQ (a belief I heard you cosigning more than one time) how could gains due to an extender be ‘newbie gains’? Extenders do nothing for blood flow.

No I couldn’t replicate the pictures linked before, not without photo editing software. As much is photographic evicende suspect, hangers lack even this ‘suspect evidence’.

If you cut yourself, first you have a bit of inflamation (even if you can’t see it), then coaugulation happens etc., etc.; the skin (which is connective tissu, although not the same tipe of tunica albuginea) starts repairing not right after the injury. Analogously, tendons/ligaments/tunica albuginea is repaired and remodeled after a significative delay:

"following subfailure tissue damage, collagen I and III expression was suppressed after 1 day, but by day 7 expression of both genes was significantly increased over controls, with collagen I expression significantly larger than type III expression. Concurrent with increased collagen expression were significantly increased expression of the collagen fibrillogenesis”
http://loci.wis c.edu/files/loc … trinsic2005.pdf
So, the idea that many hangers subsribe, that you have to always keep elongated your penis otherwise the healing will be accomplished in a matter of few hours, is plain wrong. There isn’t any significative damage to ‘heal’ after a hanging session, but if there was, better you let it heal.

I can link several studies that show that cyclic stretching has more a strenghtening effect than a prolonged stretching if you want, after all the main point here is this: if you apply a load cyclically, the tissue react becoming stronger instead than lengthening. This is due to viscoealstic properties of connective tissue and their function as well. That’s why short sets of hanging are less effective than wearing an extender. The tissue will toughen fast, most of the supposed gains will disappear due to the elasic reaction of connective tissue which will become strong at a rate that no matter how much weight for short spans of time you want to apply, you can’t elongate it much.

Sorry for the typing mistakes I have bad connection where I am right now.

Ya I was having a problem with this site today too. I wrote a long message and spent way too much time at work doing it and then the site was down so I couldn’t post it until now - infuriating! So here it is:

@Marinera: “plastic deformation” is not another word for anything, it is THE term used in exercise science/biomechanics, anatomy, and even most of the time in medicine to describe a permanent change in connective tissue - usually expansion, and usually lengthening, specifically. It is used more often than not to describe in vivo deformation, and there are several studies examining deformation in vivo - many simply measuring permanent increases in flexibility, but many additionally/instead using MRI and other imaging technology to measure deformation. I believe one of these MRI studies was referenced in the most current edition of Essentials of Strength and Conditioning from the NSCA. I will check when I get home.

Cyclic stretching: I think you must be talking about static stretching.. Cyclic stretching, for anyone reading who doesn’t know, is the practice of repeating a stretch multiple times in a stretching session, each stretch usually lasting from 5-10 seconds. This is different from ballistic stretching because cyclic stretches are performed with a relatively slow, steady speed and the maximum stretch force is low, whereas ballistic stretches are explosive (implosive because they are a stretch?) and therefore create a very large maximum stretch force for a very short time. Cyclic stretching is mainly used in physical therapy and orthopedics. I can’t see cyclic stretching as being an applicable comparison to either hanging or extending..

You are correct about static stretching (if that’s what you meant) toughening tissue - I have read about this as well. However, the studies I have seen implemented one bout of static stretching a day. In all cases under one hour with HIGH intensity (sometimes loaded) and untrained/inflexible participants. Hanging split sets for 6-9 sets (2-3 hours) spread out over the course of the day in two or more sessions does not fit in with the methodology of static stretching applied where I have seen it studied where the stretching creates a level of toughness beyond that which naturally accompanies increased deformation. The reason an extender works is because it maximizes the time side of the work load equation, as I have said before. Hangers, on the other hand, should do what they can to maximize time as well, but they can also slowly maximize intensity. Now, the hangers that only care about heavy weight while only hanging for 20-30 minutes a day in one short session are probably suffering from EXACTLY what you describe. Every bit of connective tissue has a threshold that must be met and overcome in both intensity (this is why we want to toughen it as little as possible - we want to JUST overcome this threshold with a SLOW progressive addition of intensity, usually not adding intensity until an uncomfortable stretch can no longer be achieved at that level of intensity) and duration of stretch (time). Overcoming the intensity threshold by huge amounts for very short durations is what leads to connective tissues shortening/retracting, bunching/crimping excessively, and becoming tougher/thicker, to protect itself from such a violent stimulus in the future.

@Memento: I do believe applying flexibility increases to PE has merit. Obviously there is much more going on in PE, but, as I said before, connective tissue expansion and lengthening are the most important factor in making gains in PE as they are the major limiters to how much expansion can take place in the penis and how much tissue can be built. The body is amazing, if a connective tissue membrane or linkage is stretched as to expand sufficiently to form a cavity, no cavity forms, the body fills the space with tissue! This can be seen in cases of Osgood-Slaughters/jumper’s knee where the patella tendon, due to repeated impact shock, begins to pull away from the tibia and a growth of inflamed tissue begins to grow in the void. This tissue eventually calcifies and you are left with a bony lump jutting from the tibia below the kneecap. Also, bodybuilders who inject synthol and other site-enhancing oils into their muscles, contrary to what most people believe (that the oil sits in the muscle making it bigger and balloon-like), actually cause their bodies to replace the oil with tissue to fill in the expanded fascia after the oil clears out of the muscle in under two weeks - biopsies have proven this. Kind of a tangent there, but the point I’m trying to make is: if you expand/lengthen connective tissue, stuff grows. Before anyone points this out: it doesn’t happen in joints that get more flexible because no cavity would be created, the range of motion would merely increase. And as Memento pointed out muscles can lengthen when flexibility increases, but this accounts for very little of the increased range of motion because muscles are VERY hard to stretch to the point of permanent deformation, whereas connective tissue is much easier. So when you see an increase in flexibility at a joint, primarily it is caused by the deformation of connective tissue.

Connective tissue takes 7 days to start healing: this is not true. If you have ever torn a ligament or had a connective tissue sprain you will remember the swelling that rapidly took place. This inflow of blood signifies the beginning of the healing process. Marinera, the study you were pointing out doesn’t show when healing starts, just when collagen formation is picking up - this is one of the terminal steps in the healing process for collagenous connective tissue. What the study does show, however, is that connective tissue heals VERY slowly. This is mostly because there is so little bloodflow, hence why we swell up when we damage connective tissue - that is our body trying to get some blood in there to supply the damaged tissue with raw materials. It would be interesting to examine the rate of healing of connective tissue in and around the penis because of the above average blood flow to that area, and the increased healing ability of tissue down there - I believe I read that foreskin is one of the (maybe the number one) fastest healing tissues in the human body.

Listen I’m not here to argue, you can believe whatever you want it makes no difference for me, I have seen hundreds if not thousands of I-know-it-all people on this forum speaking from a pulprit brandishing theirs holy book, be it a degree in something, the words of some guru or what their moms thought them when they were kids, so go figure if I’m going to waste my time trying to change their minds. If you really have an interest in knowing the effects of different kinds of stretches on tendon-like tissue (that is different from muscular tissue, which is the main tissue you stretch in your gym, by the way) then you can give a read to these threads
Loading, lengthening, healing.

I’ll just leave it at that, good luck.

I’m not one to jump ship easily, but I’ve had no gains from hanging for some time. But even while hanging the “little force as possible, increased time” worked for me. May have to check out extenders.

I’m sorry if I offended you Marinera. I thought this was a dialectic discussion that was going somewhere - I’m sorry if I turned it into an argument, that was not my intention. My knowledge of PE is admittedly limited, but I feel what I can bring to the table is a knowledge of how the tissues of the penis work (and not just muscle tissue - well not at all considering there is no skeletal muscle tissue in the penis, just a small amount of smooth muscle surrounding the circulatory channels - in my field of study we do learn more about biomechanics and anatomy than just getting swole at the gym :) ). I was hoping to combine what I know about the subject from empirical sources with what y’all know from your individual experiences to come to a greater understanding for myself, and really anyone else reading this, as an individual. Mem made the suggestion to me that I start a thread to do exactly that, and I will as soon as this one fizzles out. But I’d hate to lose your contribution here Marinera! I do respect what you have to say, you are one of the most prolific posters here, and you are often skeptical of unsupported ideas and that is very important considering that is the basis that science is predicated upon.

I read that link you posted and the links therein. I’m gonna forego a critique of any of it considering it is a different thread and if I had to choose I would rather continue receiving your input than make you feel even more like I am trying to argue with you, those studies were very interesting though and I learned a lot. Thanks!

In conclusion I just want to apologize to anyone who thought I was trying to come off as a guru or know-it-all, I will try and include any input I have in the future from my own education in a less matter-of-fact, I’m right and you’re wrong fashion. It is the discussion that counts here or any other place where theories are being produced and tested, and I would hate to kill that by being a prick.

DomXZ, what is your hanging protocol like? Both hanging and extending utilize traction, and traction must be applied for long periods (to maximize creep and deformation) and only use JUST enough force to overcome the threshold for plastic deformation of the connective tissue a.k.a. Enough force to stretch the tissue between about 3-9% depending on what the connective tissue is composed of - and I do not know exactly what this percentage is for the tunica or ligs, but 3-9% isn’t a ton of deformation and maybe it requires less weight than you are currently hanging. When heavy stress - more than is necessary to just overcome the deformation threshold - is applied to connective tissue, that is what causes the collagenous tissue to retract/shorten and heal thicker and tougher - not a desirable thing for continuous gains. If you have been hanging heavy (well heavy is relative, I guess I mean heavier than you needed to) for a while you may have toughened your tissue so much as to make further gains difficult. From a strictly scientific standpoint, knowing nothing about your individual practices or what works best for you, switching to the lower tension of an extender would probably help with this, as would reducing your hanging weight and using longer periods with more sets to reach “fatigue,” or by taking a break from either for a while.

I won’t remove my extender. I want those gains. At the same time, hanging is stretching on steroids in terms of endurance for your arm and grip, not necessarily because a great force of weight is used. Strengthening is a fine line to walk. But put it like this. For thirty years my cock retracted, a lot. It never went past six inches erect, not from the side even

. And now, the girth routines have thickened it. The length routines lengthened it. Life is great. I added dedicated stretching to my extender use, Bathmate stretches, and now hanging. What gain is from what? I couldn’t tell. But my dick is healthier and bigger than ever. So the safe consensus use of each approach creates changes. And OH BOY will the effort continue.