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Bib's LOT Theory


The shorter, tighter or higher the ligs, the higher the angle required to lose ‘tugback’ when stretching the penis and kegaling at the same time.

The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened.

The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

The longer time spent PEing, the lower the angle at which tugback is lost due to a lengthening of the ligs. This assumes PE is performed at lower angles, at least somewhat, by all subjects.

The less time spent PEing, the higher the angle at which tugback is lost because ligs have not been stretched.

For those with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs, a lengthening of the ligs correlates with a lowering of angle of tugback loss, and an increase in penis length.

Assumption: Those with more length gains started with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs and their ligs have been lengthened through PE. It would be nice to have starting measures for tugback loss and erection angle, but I think the stats speak to this problem. I know that for myself, before PE, my tugback loss angle HAD to be extremely high. If you started with high ligs, and you have made good gains, you will probably recognize that your entire package is now lower, indicating an increase in the length of your ligs.

As concerns erection angle vs. tugback angle loss, it must be realized that other factors affect erection angle other than lig tightness such as erection strength and tunica shape.


I used Excel to create a table of data. Then, I correlated the variables in pairs. The only calculation made from the data was gains per month. The variable, “loss of tugback” is abbreviated as LOT. It is measured from 12:00 or straight up, to 6:00 or straight down.

The following is a rough analysis of the data given by the above 24 guys. With only 24 subjects, the results cannot be deemed to be conclusive, but I think it points to some definite tendencies and some rough guidelines can be produced. Hopefully, we can get some more participants to improve the reliability of the theories.

I will look at the data in three groupings and discuss the relevant correlations: Total participants, guys over and under 1.5 inches of total gains, and guys over and under 0.083 inches gained per month.

Total data:

Only minor correlations can be found when looking at all participants. Apart from things that are obvious, such as total length being highly correlated with gains (0.875), there is only one relevant correlation. That is as time goes on, gains per month goes down, correlation= -0.605.

There are minor negative correlations between LOT and total length (-0.27), and LOT and gains (-0.24). This is a result of big gainers lowering the LOT as gains and therefore total length increase.

There is also a slight correlation between LOT and erect angle (0.22). The lower the angle of LOT the more lig stretch and gains. The looser ligs result is a slightly lower erection angle. This shows up in the amount of time spent PEing and erection angle with a (-0.356) correlation.


It has been obvious to me for a long time that physiology has a lot to do with gains. I think this can be examined by everyone, and especially new guys by testing the LOT and comparing to others. So, in this context, I wanted to look at two groups, high gainers and low gainers. For this analysis, I divided the two groups by the median total gain which is 1.325 inches. This gave two equal groups. The high gain group contains RB, DLD, Avocet, Dino, SWM, Goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, Pinocchio, and me. The low group contains restnom, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, Realpuffus, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

Things become somewhat clearer when looking at the data in this manner. It becomes obvious that for the high group, as LOT goes down, gains (-0.768) and total length (-0.712) go up. For the low group, there was NO correlation.

Truly interesting is the correlation between erection angle and LOT. For the high group, as LOT goes down, erection angle goes up (-.044). For the low group, as LOT goes up, erection angle goes up (.053)!!

Also, the relation to time and gains per month is clear; (-0.73) for the high group, and (-0.63) for the low group.

Gains per month:

The next step was to further group the data by dividing into two groups according to gains per month. This gives the ability to see the problem with hard gainers.

The median of the 24 subjects is 0.083inches per month. Those in the higher group are; RB, DLD, avocet, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, and me. Those in the lower group are; retsnom, Realpuffus, Dino, SWM, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, Pinocchio, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

These groupings revealed some interesting results.

For the high group, as total length is increased, LOT is decreased (-0.75). For the low group, there is a small POSITIVE correlation (0.19). Also, for the high group, as gains go up, LOT goes down (-0.756). For the low group, as gains go up, LOT also goes UP (0.433)!

For the high group, as time goes up, LOT goes down ((-0.72). For the low group, there is again a small POSITIVE correlation (0.25).


So what does all this mean? I think the best way to examine it is to look at individuals. First, as I said before, the assumption is that big gainers started with high tight ligs. That was my situation. Looking at the big gainers, the more gains, the lower the LOT. This seems to firmly indicate a lengthening of the ligs allowing a significant portion of penis to be revealed. The biggest gainer, DLD has the lowest LOT, 6:00. RB, avocet, toid, and I are tied for 2nd at 7:00. While some of us could profit from more lig work, the majority of future gains will come from tunica stretch. We have some long ligs.

The other members of the high group, while getting good gains, probably mostly from lig stretch, still have good potential for gains in the ligs, either hanging or stretching at lower angles. Dasheming has already gained 1.75”, but has a LOT of 9. He might be a big’un some day.

Gains problems in the lower group are evident. The problems of Johan, Sappy, SS4, j384, Penismith, and mike2002 are fairly plain. They all have very low LOTs, but not much gain to show for it. Their LOTs are as low as the big gainers. To me, this indicates that they ALWAYS had a low exit point and therefore little inner penis. They did not have the opportunity to get any easy gains. Through hard work, several of them have made gains over time, probably mainly through tunica stretch. They should concentrate on working the upper angles of hang or stretch. Also, DLD twists and upward lateral stretches might be the ticket. With consistent dedicated stress, at the upper angle, they should make progress.

Retsnom, Realpuffas, Dino, SWM, Phat, and Pinocchio are a little different. They do have potential in their ligs to gain more length from lig stretch, even though some of them have already gained pretty well. But they have had to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to get those gains, probably because of some really genetically tough collagenous tissues. Sometimes, that is just the way it is. The only thing to do is try to find ways to increase the stress, still working lower angles, and they should be able to get plenty more gains.

I had a lot of other crap I wanted to write about, but damned if I can remember what they were. Questions would be appreciated.


How to determine LOT


>For working out my LOT, am I looking for a complete loss of tugback, or just heavily reduced / weak? I would be happy to have a high LOT, and I´d say that mine must be at about 8:00 currently, but there is still a minor amount of tugback at that level. It´s small, but there. In fact, there´s a tiny amount till very far down. <

It could be two things. First, you could have a range of angles where the ligs and tunica are taking various amount of the stress. This would cause a gradual loss of tugback. Or second, you might be going by feel instead of seeing the loss of tugback. Do not judge by the flex of the PC, but rather by seeing the actual tugback.

>I´ve not done much stretching, and I´m only two weeks into my routine, so I wouldn´t expect to have a very low LOT.<

This is not correct. Some guys start out with low LOTs and some start out with high LOTs. The guys that have gained a lot and are low, probably had high LOTs to begin with. That is the theory. An LOT of 8:00 is medium.

>What´s the verdict? Does the tugback have to be gone completely?<

When the actual, visual tugback is gone completely, the ligs are taking all the stress.


Full thread

Being new to this forum and reading Bib theory, please could I get some advise, My loss of tug back happens between 6:00 to 7:00 how should I perform my stretching in my routine and what can I expect in the gains department. I’ve been Pe’ing for 6 month’s now and gained about 1/2 of an inch in erect lenght. I have been stretching between 12:00 and 9:00, power jelqing (200) and jelqing (400) reps. I also take 3 sizepro pills per day.

longboarder, you apparently have long ligs already, and don’t have a lot of growth potential left from stretching them more. For more gains, you need to stretch the tunica, plain and simple. I’m currently working for length only, then when I get it, I’ll work on my girth. It makes sense that thicker girthier tissues would be harder to stress and stretch than thinner ones.

If I were you, I would skip the PJ and ony do about 5 minutes of light jelqing to restore and maintain bloodflow, and concentrate on manual tunica stretching. Here’s how I do that-

From a seated position, with legs spread, pull parallel to my right leg, left leg, up and along my body to the right, up and along my body to the left, straight up towards my chin, left and right along my leg and straight out doing a modified A stretch.

This let’s me hit the tunica from every possible angle and ensures one area doesn’t lag behing and become a factor limiting my gains.

Twatteaser: the man, the myth, and the legend in his own mind.

I feel I am like bib when he started, High ligs. In fact, the main one seems to go upward toward the navel and is tight. This of course means that my erections point upward, but it should also mean that there is some room for “easy” growth. So even after all of this time, I might make some rapid progress if things go right. Work smarter, not harder. This is why I am going to try some hanging again (I never had time for a consistent routine) and using a stretcher during the morning commute and return home. This should give me a better pull in the downward direction to target the high/tight ligs. If this does not sound reasonable, correct me please before I start to waste my time.


So, what it your LOT?


Hey Rb

How long do you do the stretches for? 10-20 minutes? Thanks


I stop feeling a tug at about the horizontal (3:00 or 9:00 depending on which way you look at it). My penis also exits my body really high. If I remember correctly, you said you started similar to this. This is why I thought that the downward pull of a stretcher worn for 2 15 min. sessions might help.


It sounds like a good plan. Go for the BTC angle as much as possible. You should gain.


Thread moved

Strong pullback 12:00 to 10:00
small noticable movement to 6:00
Begining 5”x4”
Now 6”x51/4”
EA 9:30
Anus 21/2”
PE’ing 10 months - No gains for 5 months

kegals, 4 way stretching, dld blasters, wet jelq, dry jelq, bends

When stretching at 12:00 can stretch penis 8”, but
only stretch 6” sideways and down.
While seated doing blasters down, can feel tunica stretch.
Pulling BTC feel ligs pulling.

Does 8” stretch at 12:00 signify something?
Don’t know what all this means, but would like to know
exercise that will get me that 8”s at 12:00

wow I’m stumped! i feel no tug back at any timezone. i been pe for 3 yrs at least and have made little to zero gains after my first 6 months useing the penistretcher in which i gained a solid inch. ive jelqued, manual stretched and had a intense 5 hr aday at 20 lbs with the tracman + wearing a stretcher with 2 lbs the rest of the day. i literally found extreme burn in a good way on my ligs and soreness , but zero gain. at that point i just had to accept my ligs were done , gone as far as they can go!
so i don’t totally understand the lot theory since i skimmed over it, but I’m pretty sure my ligs are way beyond maxed and only tunica work gives me any hope for lengh.

currently I’m doing foreskin restoration and continueing on with girth. my girth grows consistently full shaft from my version of the uli device( blow up ulis) + wearing a piece of tape or leather semi tite all nite just in front of my scrotum.

well I’m still 8.25 lengh but am now 6.25 girth mid shaft to head and 6 base. id be a bit fatter behind the head but my program is setup to bring up the complete shaft to identical proportions.


Last edited by cyberstud25 : 04-26-2003 at .


>Strong pullback 12:00 to 10:00
small noticable movement to 6:00<

This does not give much information. At what angle do you no longer SEE the actual tugback of your head?

>Does 8” stretch at 12:00 signify something?<

I don’t know.

>Don’t know what all this means, but would like to know
exercise that will get me that 8”s at 12:00 <

Try to be more specific with your LOT.


>wow I’m stumped! i feel no tug back at any timezone.<

Perhaps you need to do kegal work? When you stretch and kegal, you see no tugback at any angle? On the surface, this would indicate that you have extremely high ligs.

>so i don’t totally understand the lot theory since i skimmed over it, but I’m pretty sure my ligs are way beyond maxed and only tunica work gives me any hope for lengh.<

Perhaps you should go over the theory again and try to provide some concrete information. The better the information and research, the more pointed your routine can be, and probably the better results. Also, read the forum guidelines.



Lot 10:00

I was thinking being able to stretch 8” at 12:00
but only 6” in other directions might indicate What
I need to work on - ligs or tunica


>I was thinking being able to stretch 8” at 12:00
but only 6” in other directions might indicate What
I need to work on - ligs or tunica<

With an LOT of 10:00, you need to work solely on the lower angles.

I don’t know how you are measuring to get a two inch difference depending on what angle you use.


Darn, my LOT is at 7 o’clock. I guess that’s why I’ve seen little gain, off and on in two years! I’m assuming that my ligs are naturally longer to begin with (5’4” tall and 6.75 BPEL) and now need to do more tunica work at 9 o’clock and above. It’s kind of depressing to know my goal will be more difficult to achieve but, at least, I now have the knowledge to understand and press on!

Thanks BIB, You Rock ! :buttrock:

"Don't be like Jackie. There is only one Jackie. Go to school and study computers instead." Jackie Chan

I´ve been trying to understand this LOT thing.

I have two oposite ways to understand it, would you tell me which one is correct?

Example 1: I pull my penis at different angles, if it tugs back at a 12:00 angle… that means that I have a 12 LOT (or whatever) and I should hang at low angles???

Example 2: I pull my penis in an angle (10:00) at which the penis no longer tugs back, that is my LOT, so I have to hang at lower angles…

At high hangin/stretching angles, you work your tunica.

At low angles you work your Ligs. Is that right?


I gained aproximately 3.5cm/1.4inches since I started PEing. I´m currently only hanging (1 hour a day). I went from 16cm/6.4 inches BP length to my current 19,5cm Bone Pressed /7.8 inches.

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