IPR the sky is the limit?

Haha, don’t worry T. I did the same thing in this thread: Have you hit a PLATEAU? The politics are getting to us all…

Remek, thanks (again) for your response and insightful contributions!

Hey, check it out - actual quotes in my post!! Ladies and gentlemen the man CAN BE taught!!! Thanks for the directions!

Before I forget to include it, here is another interesting article on smooth muscle growth. It’s kind of a hard read in that it uses a lot of unfamiliar medical terminology (at least to me.) I did however, pick up a few interesting points. It may be a nice auxiliary to the book you are reading.

http://physrev. physiology.org/ … t/full/81/3/999

I understood it to be in addition to the smooth muscle gain. More like a parallel result of the injury. It would make sense that if you have a 50/50 tissue ratio that exercises would affect (injure) both, thus eliciting a repair response in each and therefore new tissue types of both.
Does that sound logical to you? Also, the growth ratios of each would seem to indicate that the body’s response would attempt to maintain that ratio.
Maybe??

So, what do you think on slowing gains? If (as was stated earlier, and I think supported by the evidence) the newly formed scar tissue is weaker than healthy tissue then can we safely rule out scar tissue as toughening the penis and making it harder to injure? I think so. Thoughts?
This one is baffling me.

That is interesting! I was reading a book on stretching in the waiting room of my Chiropractors office and it said the exact same thing. Tendons and ligaments respond best to light extended stretching.

Modesto gave me a link to a ligaments and tendons document. I am still reading it I’ll look to see if it has any insight on this.
Here it is if you haven’t already seen it.

Any response from the sports medicine doctor?

The link concerning smooth muscle growth I included above seems to support this. There are 3 process listed that facilitate growth.
Injury is one of the processes. I think it’s safe to say that B. Injury and C. Remodeling are the two we are dealing with.

II. PHYSIOLOGICAL PROCESSES THAT REQUIRE VASCULAR SMOOTH MUSCLE CELL GROWTH
A. Development
B. Injury
C. Remodeling

Anything from the book?

BTW, question 4 was just a humorous quote from a Monty Python movie.

Thanks again!!!

OK -don’t make take the defibrillator to this thread. I think my incoherent babbling killed it.

Anyway, I just read something that made me think…

Modesto posted a link to the extract “The Nature of Tendons and Ligaments” It states “Inflammation manifests as swelling, heat, redness and pain. The acute inflammatory phase last from three to seven days after injury.” Speaking from purely a personal experience, I have never experienced any of these in my penis that would be consistent with this definition of inflammation. Does anyone else have these types of symptoms? Is the injury tissue so minute that we never see the symptoms of inflammation?

Thoughts, comments, poems?

I think the idea is that the injuries that take place during PE are very small, essentially micro-tears, that may cause some soreness but not the kind of acute symptoms described in the TL extract.

This is yet another reason I doubt that scar tissue plays a very big role in PE. The TL extract also indicated that very small injuries heal over with virtually no sign of damage. I’m fairly certain most if not all PE induced injuries fall into this category.

Yet another idea to munch on is that we’re really not causing much inflammation, and that inflammation is really not the goal of PE. We’re applying traction, pressure, or stimulating blood flow to induce growth. Not to be negative on any particular PE theory, but inflammation and IPR healing in general may have no connection to why we gain. Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that inflammation actually slows gains.

My best gains came from the most moderate forms of PE, which didn’t cause any pain whatsoever.

My thoughts exactly! Problem is, how do one find what it takes to get the penis to grow, time, force, rest etc.. If it only takes 1 hour every third day, why keep pulling like a mad man every day? If it takes 4 hours hanging every day, how come some veterans suddenly gain again after a break?

The way we work is not very effective. Someone find a good routine, another person reads it, modifies it and uses it and does not gain. Someone else find a good routine with some “new” exercises, lots of people try the exact same routine, some gain, most do not. Every time this happens, people do not post their findings. I can understand it in a way. Not much fun to report 0 gains after 3 months of pulling ones dick for hours every day.

What if making the penis longer and thicker is just like exercising any other part of your body? What if we can use sports science in PE? A guidance word that can ask allot of important questions could be; MICVEP

M- Motivation; Why start PE? Does it work? Do you know how to measure?

I- Individualisation; Have you done it before? Are you a newbie? Do you have ED? Do you have any other “condition”?

C- Continuity; Do you have to do it with a certain frequency? Can you take breaks? Should you?

V- Variation; What can you vary? What is the difference between a inverted v-stretch and fulcrum hanging? Is it beneficial to vary your work volume?

E- Evaluation; Did you keep a log of your efforts? Did you gain? Was your method of measuring consistent?

P- Progression; Did you increase time or weight? Did you add workouts from week 1 to week 2? Did you use a consistent level of pressure in the pump?

Just a thought.

You’re very welcome :)

I just quickly read over the article. I’m going to have to print it up and read it—in detail—over the weekend sometime — it looks like it has a lot of good information. Thank you!

Iguana, yes, this is what I think happens. It makes sense, and I did some further reading and everything seemed to confirm that both collagen and skeletal muscle are produced linear (with the same ratio).

IMO, the plateau is due to either the tunica toughening or the smooth muscle becoming to adapted (i.e. the same way skeletal muscles adapt to exercise and cause a plateau in that aspect)

This all makes sense now… I think a lot of guys use way too much force/ weight. In fact, I’ve noticed that when guys try to up the intensity to an extreme (by using extreme weight, exercises, or force when stretching/jelqing) they often find themselves with a plateau. It’s funny how our brains are wired to think more is better (more force, more weight, etc) — in spite of the evidence.

Iguana, the link doesn’t work :(

No, I actually haven’t been able to get in touch with him. I’m hoping to talk to the doc later tonight, hopefully she can give me another way to contact him.

If I didn’t know any better, this sounds a lot like IPR … Very good find Iguana!!! I’ll surely have to take a good look at that article now.

No, I spent a while searching and unfortunately I didn’t find anything.

Great information, keep it up!!

Is this referring to what happens when we stretch tendons? A lot of guys have post-workout growth; perhaps this is the physiological process behind the growth? Also, perhaps it is the physiological process between the post-workout hang (i.e. swelled tuniac).

I’ll have to check out this TL extract. I think I’ve skimmed over it before (I’m sure it’s somewhere on my desktop), but I know I haven’t looked at it in detail.

I tend to agree with you MM. Ever since xeno’s IPR post, I’ve wondered if we really are causing inflammation. Wouldn’t we feel something? Wouldn’t we notice something? Perhaps it’s light inflammation on the very minute level — as you suggested? Or perhaps it’s the increased blood flow that stimulates SM growth which stretches the tunica? Nevertheless, I think these are all good ideas.

Either way, one thing is now for certain: you don’t have to use high weight/ high force/ a lot of time to gain. Xeno, babbis, and other’s have proven that.

babbis

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The PE community really isn’t that effective. Partially because most of us don’t look at our own rates of growth, our own response to the exercises, our own clues; rather we look at other peoples posts, and how they gained.

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say — everyone is different. Why try to match yourself with someone else when your body, and ultimately your penis, won’t react to the stress the same way they do. Instead, we should really be looking at each others strategy, not routine. How did Bib get to his high weight? What strategy did Big Girtha use to get to 2 inches in girth? How did Mr. Fantastic gain 2 inches with only 12 lbs.? How did Wadzilla’s friend friend gain over 4 inches with jelqing and stretching alone. The answers, IMO, is in the strategy.

All of these guys didn’t listen to others. They didn’t try to imitate someone elses success. They had to find their own PE holy grail — their own clues, their own responses. They came, they thought, they gained.

Quote ModestoMan:
Yet another idea to munch on is that we’re really not causing much inflammation, and that inflammation is really not the goal of PE. We’re applying traction, pressure, or stimulating blood flow to induce growth. Not to be negative on any particular PE theory, but inflammation and IPR healing in general may have no connection to why we gain. Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that inflammation actually slows gains.

My best gains came from the most moderate forms of PE, which didn’t cause any pain whatsoever.

The decon break is the reason to why the “IPR” routine works (for some), You really don`t need to do extreme routines as long as your break is long enough, During decon you should be able to see and feel when your penis is getting back to the way it was before you started PE, And you should be able to get easy gains with a very light routine.

I totally agree with you Modesto, In the past I was doing extreme routines for months without any EL gains at all, FSL did increase with all the hard pulling but not even a one millimeter gain in EL.
Before my first round with the IPR routine my FSL was 2 cm longer than my EL, And now after two rounds my FSL has decreased with 1 cm, And my EL has increased with 0,8 cm. The extreme stuff doesn’t work for EL gains at least for me it doesn’t, It makes the penis fight back and probably makes it even harder to get new gains in EL.

I had forgotten about this thread, Just saw a link to it in Babbis progress report and thought I should update it.

It has been almost a year since I started this thread, And it seems like the interest for the IPR routine has faded in this time. I have also noticed that a few guys have done 2-4 rounds with no gains on their last round, And has then given it up.

However, I have also noticed that they (or some of them) have cut down quite a lot on the decon period, Seems like the standard decon break is 4 weeks, Instead of the 8 weeks that Xeno suggested.

IMO, Xeno is like the rest of us, We don`t like to take breaks, It goes against our logic to do nothing to gain.

We are afraid that we will lose gains, Or that we will miss out on two months of gains.

So if I am correct on this, Why would he suggest 8 weeks if 4 weeks was enough?

The decon break is the reason that the IPR works, With no break it is simply just another hanging routine.

But trust me on this, If you have been doing hard core PE for six months or more, With absolutely no gains to show for it, You really have nothing to lose. You are not missing out on anything.

I finished my third round more than six months ago, I gained the same on this round as before, But I decided to go for more gains after finishing, And has since been doing different types of PE with no more gains to show for it. Two weeks ago I started a more serious routine, I will follow this for 2-3 months and see if I gain, And if I don`t, I will give the IPR another go.

It would be cool to hear the results now almost a year later, I will go first…

Third round on the IPR routine:

Lost 1 mm EL during decon.

Gained 5 mm EL from the routine.

Please also include the the length of your decon break, Mine was around two months, Maybe a few days short.

ModestoMan,

I have been searching the internet and reading the available information about “permanent elongation” of ligaments for about a year now. The information is typically tough for me to fully comprehend because it is written for the scienctific/medical community. Like you, I believe that PE gains are achieved by stretching the tissues to the point of causing micro-tears in the tissue, especially in the suspensory ligament. These micro-tears are categorized as sub-failure damage, as oposed to reaching the status of complete ligament failure, where in the ligament tears or pops (to break). Researchers have found that the tissues of the ligament (possibly the cells of the ligament) need to reach a strain of 5.14% in order for permanent elongation of the ligament to occur. Which basically means that either the whole ligament needs to stretch (or creep) an additional 5.14% in length, or that if some cells in the ligament stretch an additional 5.14% beyond their orriginal length micro-tears occur. To be honest, I’m not sure if it has to occur on the cellular level (most probable in my humble opinion), or an additional stretch of the ligament as a whole.

After these micro-tears have been created in the tissues, possibly individual cells, obviously healing will eventually need to take place. According to the literature on the subject, until adequate recovery time is allowed, the ligament becomes weaker, which doesn’t make sense to me regarding resistance to PE training, but it does make sense that the amount of weight needed to tear/break the ligament would then be less than needed to tear it before the micro-tears occured.

I believe that the IPR Macro cycle is alligned with this information. Certainly, from the available literature about ligaments, and evidence from the PE community we can stand behind the theory of pucntuated PE. Still, I am not yet sure that I agree with setting up one’s PE routine with micro cycles, particulary for targeting the ligs, and possilby the tunica (I need to research the tunica more before deciding what is best for tunica work).

The information about a strain of 5.14% is linked to another thread that is stickied to the top of the hangers forum.

Some vets gain again after a break because the cells of their suspensory ligament return to their natural state or order. Gradually the tissues of the ligament build up tolerance to a specific weight. They resist being stretched, as they had in earlier days of the routine by that same weight, by alligning up in a more effective manner that resist stretching. Once study that I read on the net showed in the results that a particular force becomes something like 80% less effective at inducing creep, with the force applied for the same amount of time, over a period of weeks, not months. I just can’t remember the exact number of weeks, or the exact percentage, but It was over 50% certainly, and in a period of weeks. Supposedly the collogen matrix becomes realligned in the most effective order that will resist stretching to the force applied.

Hence, over time a heavier load, or more time is necessary to achieve the same amount of creep, which if enough creep is accumulated, miro-tears occur.
These micro-tears result in permament elongation. This permanent elongation can be called plastic deformation, as elastic deformation is what occurs in one specific hanging session if no micro-tears occured. Then the elastic deformation is completely recoverable, meaning no permanent elongation of the ligament occured.

We used to wonder here at the forums if plastic deformation was what was occuring to the cells, or collagen, in order to result in permanent gains. It is not. Inducing ligament creep to the point of micro-tears occuring on the cellular, is a very likely explanation. As for plastic deformation, it is still applicable to PE in that concerning living tissues it is interchangable with the term “permanent elongation, it is a synonym with that phrase, and not an explanation for an occurance on the cellular level.

Which leads me to my current delima. I don’t have it all figured out.

If not enough weight or time is applied to the ligament, only elastic deformation while the force was applied occured. It stretching beyond its normal state was a form of deformation, but it was elastic in nature and the ligament returns to its previous length. Unfortunately, at the same time, this ligament is able to begin allingning its collagen matrix in such a way as to resist stretching to this same force, the same extent, in the near future. Fortunately, given enough time (deconditioning) these disobedient tissues get off their guard.

Yet, if enough force and or time was applied to cause sufficient ligament strain/creep (5.14% strain on the cellular level), micro-tears occur leading to “permanent elongation”. This is a plastic deformation of the ligament, and not an elastic deformation. Yet, the ligament is still building a resistance to that specific amount of force. This is xeno’s positive feedback/negative feedback cycle. At first permanent elongation is able to be achieved before the ligs build up enough resistance. The resistance is like a snowball, it starts small, then it grows in time till it overwhelms, and overcomes the force applied to the ligament. While that theoretical snowball of resistance is still small, gains are easier, then they become hard, or impossible with the same force/time. So more weight is necessary to continue gaining, but this means more force on the soft tissues of the penis like the skin, the blood vessels, the nerves. Therefore, continuing to up the force and time becomes more difficult or risky. In fact, concerning time, xeno said that the returns on investment become too low to continue trying to induce gains.

I’m beggining to lose my sense of organization for this post. I did not intend on mentioning this information yet since I don’t have enough information available to cite sources at the moment, nor do I “yet” have success to show the proof.

My current delima concerns the micro cycle. It may or may not be the most efficient way to legnthen the suspensory ligament. If only elastic deformation is reached, nothing permanent occured, and only resistance was built to that particular amount of weight, however minute that resistance may be. This would be either to not enough weight or amount of time that force is being applied to the ligament. Which leads me to why hanging every day may be effective. By using a light weight that does not damage any of the soft tissues such as skin, blood vessels, nerves, etc…. (or make them too sore) , one is able to hang on consecutive days. If the weight or time was not enough to achieve enough ligament strain/creep to induce micro-tears, some creep will remain and have not yet fully recovered, so the next days hanging session can start where the previous day left off. Now, the ligament 40% - 60% of creep/strain recovers during the first hour that the weight is removed. The remaining percent takes 24-48 hours to recover, according to one source. Another source, which I will give the address to in a future post, says that a ligament fully recovers after 10 times the amount of time that it was under a load. For instance if you hang for 1 hour, 10 hours later the ligament has fully recovered. It would take 20 hours for the ligs to return after 2 hours of hanging, and 30 hours after 3 hours of hang time. Now, if you don’t reach the point of stretching the cells beyond 5.14% on a given day, wouldn’t you want some strain/creep to accumulate from one day to the next in order to finally strain some cells beyond 5.14%? I believe that this is how much of the PE gains have been achieved by everyone except for newbies. Possibly, some newbies are able to stretch their suspensory ligament within one session sufficiently (that 5.14% threshold) enough to induce micro-tears. They are able to do this because their penis/suspensory ligament has not built up any resistance to a given amount of force or time. Seasoned PE’ers may not be able to do this becuase the amount of force to do this in one session is now too high, or the time too prohibitive, and therefore the risk of damaging the penis to high. Sparkyx’s PI’s come to mind when considering these issues. The amount of force needed to be applied to a highly conditioned penis to see newbie like gains would result in negative PI’s. So we stay away from those risks. Yet, after deconditioning, or the remodeling phase of IPR. A seasoned PE’er may have a more “newbie like” penis. If so, following a micro cycle is then effective. There would be a high probability that after a deconditioning break, a seasoned PE’er with his newbie like penis can use lower weights, cause enough creep/strain, which induces micro-tears, and ultimately results in our goal of permanent elongation of the suspensory ligament. So, this proves that a micro-cycle can work, but you have to use enough force/time for it to be effective. If the force or time is too low, PE’ing on consecutive days will be effective. In this way, creep/strain will accumulate from one day to the next. Possibly the lower weights used will build resistance less quickly, and the I phase can go on over more weeks. Still this may only lead to the same amount of gains, since they will be achieved more slowly, due to gains being established by an accumulation of creep/strain over consecutive days.

I almost want to apologize for dumping this information out in somewhat of an unorganized manner. I’ve been pondering these issues for about a year now, and I’ve been putting off posting indepth about it for a while now. I would ultimitely like to link to other threads, and post links in order site references, and support my views.

The thread “More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial” has some great information. In fact, bib makes a few statements about reaching that 5.14% threshold.

That information is my view and opinion. I’m sure that I may be wrong on some issues. Still, I’m not satisfied and will continue to read, and I will post something more organized in the future. I’d ultimately like to post something of “article” quality, but I may not be able to do that. Time will tell.

P.S. I havn’t gained in years. I’ve only gained from lig pops due to manual stretching many years ago before finding this wonderful forum. Take that into consideration. Xeno and others have gained.

Excellent posts, researches and observations; but, as often happens, maybe we are going to near to one tree for seeing the forest.

First, the Docs who speaks about tendons/ligaments elongations are maybe not speaking of augmenting the volume it, but regaining the original length that for a prolonged muscular contraction, caused by a trauma or illness, has temporary changed; in PE, seems to me, we are interested in another phenomenon. Otherwise said, if I’m stretching my biceps tendons, I’ m not trying to make an arm 50% longer than it is now.
We are forgetting that penis doesn’t resemble to any other part of our body, exception the head-neck structure, in some way.

I think that ligaments/tendons growth doesn’t need a specific focus; the function of this tissue is supporting a given bodypart; as this bodypart grow, ligaments that sustain it grows too; otherwise we had some PEer’s with a penis separated from the body and attached to it only by ligaments - with a space void between body and the base of penis.

Regarding more specifically the IPR rest-pause theory, it remember me the HIT training that some are sustaining for hardgainers in body-building: it could work the first one-two times you try it, but in the long run it isn’t an optimal choice; what’s interesting is that the first time you try HIT training, you have gains caused by a hig-volume/intensity work that made first. What make our body adaptation stalling is a too uniform distribution of work, simply because we have the body of our primitive ancestors - they didn’t hunt/fight etc. exactly three hours a day for six months, then rest exactly one month and so on; the efforts were somewhat discontinue.

Best studies on how the boy adapt to a stress remain those of eastern meds-docs/trainers; they found that the volume/intensity of a stress has to be computed on week basis; in every training/day of the week the work has to vary a little; week by week the total work has to be higher for 3-6 weeks, then the work is cutted of in volume (but not in intensity) for 1-4 weeks, than you have 1-4 weeks of really light work or no work at all; and NOW you have gains. The point is: one could think, observing only the last 2-8 weeks of this periodization : “I have rested and I have gained; so rest is the cause of gains” - wrong; gains was a retarted consequence of the high stress You have first - very high voume/intensity in one single week could produce results after months!

I know this post could sound really confused; the problem is : things ARE confusing, when we try to understand our body.

I want pointly some thing: 1) progressive hig-volume training, for a given amount of time, then a cut off of 50% of volume for an equal amount of time, then a month or so of rest could be the best way to adapt to a stress (think that studies seems prove that intellectual adaptation has similar log to physical adaptation); 2) this adaptation means body modifications; somebody seem to think, here, that adaptation is equal to stalling - wrong, body has a plateau wan CEASE to adapt to a stress; 3) when you judge results of a given routine, you have to consider what you did VERY long time first of that routine.

So, and save practical evidence, IPR PE doesn’t seem the best choice we have.