Knowing whether you are limited by Dorsal Thickening/Septum

There is capacity for arteries, veins, and nerves to elongate (they do with great ease when we grow). It’s a chicken or egg question as to whether nerve and vessel lengthening with normal growth when we’re young is primarily due to growth hormones or the result of tension stress of the growth of other structures, or both. (I am in no way suggesting the use of any hormones for PE — this just a discussion of capacity to lengthen).

We do know that vessels and nerves elongate in the penis with PE, particularly in the skin. We can see vein lengthening and measure them as well.

So there is definitely capacity to lengthen the vessels and nerves in the deep dorsal vein, arterial branches and nerves. I do believe that fulcrum stretches (hanging or v-stretch) can and do have the ability to elongate Buck’s fascia. The question again is moderate, high or ultra-high intensity tension? Like any other collagen structure fibers can elongate and/or thicken. We want to lengthen and not thicken. The intensity question has been debated ad nauseum in this forum; the jury’s still out.

Though it would appear that Buck’s fascia’s thickness seems thinner microscopically elsewhere around the tunica, its thickening here with its primary longitudinal fibers make it seemingly stiffer than the entire tunica structure of the CC (and CS). This is probably the result of the 2 layer (generally) tunica with both longitudinal and circumferential fibers and the folding that the fiber bundles in them exhibit when flaccid (pudendum - Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping). So in the flaccid penis it is this dorsal thickening (basically the thickened dorsal segment of Buck’s fascia) that is felt when many guys (but as we know, not all) pull on their penis, is the rate limiting structure to further stretch.

My impression is that elongation of the vessels and nerves in this fascia is definitely possible, with the caveat that stretch must be done with care. Jerking, sudden onset of high tension could be disastrous. I found that with progressive stretch of superficial vessels with time and/or tension in an extender, veins in my skin started to “complain” — they hurt, starting with a vague discomfort, to frank sharp pain. That’s when I backed off or stopped. In a well supported environment like the Buck’s fascia, the vessels (arteries and veins) might actually be better protected as the resistance of the fascia should only allow so much stretch, more than likely less than superficial veins in the skin of the penis. This should still stimulate them to elongate from a tension stress.

Nerves have a similar capacity. The major sensory nerves of the penis run in this dorsal position of penis. The relative infrequent complaints of nerve problems from stretch (not from compression with clamps or strangulation as with nooses and straps which I believe are an entirely different story) are probably the result of this protection from Buck’s fascia. Stretch without numbness or pain should be a good indicator of safety.

I’m not sure that hanging with 25 lbs. over a dowel is a good thing. But I believe we can, and I believe I did, elongate the shaft — both tunica and Buck’s fascia with fulcrum stretches. (I used v-stretches after reaching limits from ligament stretch alone). So I believe that sensible fulcrum maneuvers, including heat, can be done safely and that over time they can affect lengthening of the fascia and the vessels and nerves.

Thanks for the info! :)

Few more questions Pundendum.

Firstly, is it possible that such longitudinal fibres can be elongated at all with non-fulcrum (heated) hanging? Fulcrums are obviously a little more unpleasant..

Secondaly, using a V-fulcrum while hanging, do you think the stress applied to Buck’s fascia would be reduced compared to if using an A-fulcrum? Kinesthetically, it feels as though the tissue from the ventral areas of the penis including the CS and septum etc provide a cushioning that protects the Buck’s fascia from the total intensity of stretch and angle of bend of the fulcrum.

In my penis I have an upwards curve that is clearly (to me) a result of the Buck’s fascia. The upward curve hides my length literally and ocularly, and I don’t like it, so ideally I’d like to reduce the curve by, in my thinking, doing A-fulcrum hanging or even (carefully) rotating my penis 90 degrees and then hanging on the V fulcrum so that the fulcrum rests on the dorsal side of my penis (I’ve tried this before, it doesn’t feel overly stupidily dangerous, at least not at relatively low hanging weights which is where I’m at).

My other question is: for newbies who identify Buck’s fascia as their limiting factor, is it worth them doing newbie routine stretches at all? Personally, for me, they never (perceviably) did anything and it was always apparent the Buck’s fascia was taking all of the force. I’d hence be tempted to suggest people who start in my position to jump right into fulcrum stretching or even hanging (with heat, of course). I never gained anything untill I did so. It seems to me that although these exercises carry more risk, because the BF seems to be so resiliant, it’s probably okay. I’ve never had any issues or injuries from even some quite absurd length techniques I’ve tried.

Looking forward to your reply.

You are most welcome.

I believe that hanging alone might have some effect, though unlike V-fulcrum, it does not concentrate on Buck’s fascia specifically as do inverted V-stretches (A-stretches).

You are correct. I misspoke using incorrect terminology in my previous posts. In my mind, fulcrum hanging is over a dowel which would induce an A-stretch (or inverted V-stretch). The inverted V-stretch would induce the maximal stress on Buck’s fascia on the dorsal side, being highest at the fulcrum point. This requires moving the fulcrum point to induce the max tension along the entire fascia.

I have the same upward curve and it also gives the same reduced length optically. I’ve read many posts accusing masturbation technique for the curve. Anatomically this make no sense. Some guys are just unlucky like us and have a shorter, resistant Buck’s fascia that tugs the head upward into a curve at peak erection.

If the goal of your V-fulcrum is for a tunica stretch (CS and CC), than I would continue, though I believe that it will have minimal effect on Buck’s as the angle of the fulcrum would in fact shorten, not lengthen the fascia during the stretch.

Many of the gurus here and elsewhere do not recommend that newbies do advanced PE technique when they start; tunica stretches are advanced techniques. Though I’m not a guru, I agree. Newbie PE for 3 months accommodates the penis to the unusual “penisthetics” (sorry Thunder, had to do it :) ) that it is not use to doing. I think this is important because it gets the penis owner the chance to learn how his tool takes to the stresses and to listen to his penis (PI’s). The stretch of Buck’s fascia does carry an injury potential, it is high stress - though depending upon the stress used, particularly if one attempts to do erect penis bends (dorsal to ventral). Remember the arteries and nerves live in there.

A newbie routine does mainly concentrate on the suspensory ligaments, though jelqing does have both girth and lengthening effects. I myself had significant response to the first 90 days of PE that included a newbie routine plus an extender.

I didn’t start V- and A-stretches until after the first 90 days. I saw further lengthening, though I can’t say I saw too much effect on the curve, possibly that by giving equal time to both V- and A-stretch so uniform lengthening dorsal and ventral would apparently maintain the curve. Being on a long deconditioning break, I might consider more concentrated A-stretch as a result of my review of this and other threads on the dorsal thickening.

Thanks for the interaction.

I agree with what you said about newbies hanging. Though I didn’t gain length, I do believe the tactile memories and information I gained while manually stretching has contributed to my overall PE wisdom, and thusly it was not time wasted. I guess I was just unlucky to never get any lig elongation. I’ve always felt Buck’s fascia go right up into my pelvis, not sure how to feel for the ligs.

Not specifically on Buck’s fascia? It does feel to me that Buck’s fascia takes 100% of the stress in non-fulcrum hanging. Are you suggesting the CC and CS are also taking some? Clearly they are in a lengthened state, though an examination with my fingers shows they still have plenty of elasticity and hence are not actually taking an unnatural strain. My question was not whether Buck’s fascia was being targeted, but whether the longitudinal fibres that compose it would be liable to elongation via a paralell force such as that hanging without a fulcrum would cause. Just deciding whether to incorporate non-A-fulcrum hanging into my routine or not.

The only problem with A-fulcrum is they are somewhat annoying to acomplish, especially when you get into over the shoulder hanging or the like. Which is why I attempted innovation by trying a semi “bundled” fulcrum hang. A 180 degree rotation so that the BF rests against what’s otherwise a V fulcrum, to simulated an inverted V fulcrum. Do you think this is a viable method?

I have the cord down the middle as described by budz I too feel it intensely in the anus. When I was hanging with 10lbs I would not get any fatigue in the penis but rather fatigue in my anus area. This is the same place I would get fatigue if I did tons of kegels while sitting on a chair. I have the exact same BPEL and BPFSL I have always had an upwards curve pre PE and now it has actually gotten less curved. Sadly very little to no length gains since August 2009 and I never missed more than 2 days in a row from my PE been very consistent.

Hey guys, I brought up Buck’s fascia enclosure of the dorsal complex waaay back on post #110. With the corroboration by pudendum perhaps we may have resolved the issue.

You did to! I must have missed that. Looks like you were right :)

Hi guys, collecting data, would appreaciate you all to become numbers, thanks :)

POLL: Your Limiting Factor

Pardon my delay.

The penis is a very complex organ with many different “moving parts”. When any longitudinal stress upon the penis will activate all the parts of the penis from ligaments to the point where the stress is applied (hanger “harness”, hand, extender, etc.). It is the structure with the greatest resistance which will be the rate limiting tissue/structure. For many of us that is Buck’s fascia, for others it is some other structure. Therefore a straightforward longitudinal stress is not specific. This is what I mean by “Not specifically on Buck’s fascia.” When the longitudinal stress is supplemented with an A-stretch/fulcrum stretch, then the stress is almost specifically on this fascia (though do not neglect its influence on the tunica).

So for some guys a straightforward longitudinal effect may suffice, in others it may not. I don’t think we can predict. I would believe you should try the easiest, lowest stress maneuvers first and if they don’t work, advance to the fulcrum stretches. This is my opinion.

I’m not sure I understand your maneuver with the 180 degree rotation. Any dorsal to ventral bending stress in the stretched flaccid penis along numerous locations would be a potential for lengthening the fascia, as long as the stress does not induce collagen fiber thickening instead of longitudinal lenthening. I personally have done a very limited amount of hanging, more because I had problems with the penis tethers (“strap”, vacuum), not with the technique in general. So I’m not sure I can speak directly to your method.

Clarity and correctness are important because it helps us all to get on the same page with understanding of the complex penis and how our endeavors affect it. Your post was enlightening and most correct.

Always enjoy collaboration. That’s what I do for a living. :)

Well here’s my attempt to visually explain what I mean by 180 degree rotation “V” hanging!

My mind’s eye is very poor at visual representation and hence I am a terrible artist and have no concept of artistic perspective, so I don’t know if these pictures will make it any clearer, but here’s to hoping.

Penis CAD, who knew. :)

Your maneuver in my mind suggests that your 180 degree rotation would result in a true v-stretch, as opposed to the A- (or inverted v-) stretch. I envision that the A-stretch would deliver the greatest concentrated stretch on Buck’s fascia, though when penis is pulled taut (hanging, hand, etc), any distortion perpendicular (in any direction) to the long axis will put stress on Buck’s fascia. IMO the stress would be greatest in the A-stretch.

Hmm humbug it is at this point that I start to wonder if we have been refering to A and V stretches in the inverse all along. Originally I though a V stretch would be to shape one’s fingers like that of a V and then put the penis is the middle so that it would actually be in the shape of an A. So when I talk about fulcrums I just assumed that the penis resulting in an A shape was on a V fulcrum…Are you telling me otherwise?

I may have solved my problem of awkwardness anyway. Last night I tied a belt around my neck and attached my penis, via my vaccum hanger and a cord to that belt. Then I placed a fulcrum which I could easily hold with my hands on the dorsal side of my penis and pushed down with my hands while mantaining normal posture (and pressure) with my neck which gave me a stretch I could hold indefinately at maximum tension directly on Buck’s fascia. This eleminates the need for weights and allowed me to easily move the fulcrum to different locations on Buck’s fascia so as to target many points.

Can some one make a diagram of the parts of the penis you are talking about, I am a bit lost :p .

That sounds like a good workout routine. I also have that darn hard steel chord inside that is limiting my length gains. I am up to 7.25 BPEL and that chord is what is limiting me in getting anymore length. When I stretch with an ADS I can only stretch to a certain point until it stops stretching. I don’t feel the stretch anymore, just the limitation to what I can do. Hopefully by adding the wooden dowel to my stretch routine I can work on this chord and get more length.