Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

I know ttt and all the clampers who place clamps at peak erection and all the guys who erect bend and jelq at very high erections aren’t going to like what I say here. I absolutely agree with you.

Reports on tendons and ligaments undergoing peak tension (loaded; meaning muscle strongly contracted) under go tension-induced remodeling that increases collagen fiber size and not length. This is a protective mechanism to reduce the chance of traumatic tendon rupture or ripping from the bone. I think the same happens with high intensity PE focusing on the peak erect tunica.

The tension stress is very high pressure at peak erection (much like trying to push more fluid into a closed end copper pipe) with maybe small amounts of radius change (in the tunica, not the copper pipe). By LaPlace’s Law this will cause large increases in tunica tension. But at what cost. I believe that all three of the methods you suggest have a high potential for injury if done incorrectly. Even though the mechanism of repair of injury is the same (with the exception of a much higher number of inflammatory cells; IPR), is it worth the cost? I can only answer that for myself.

This forum has readers (and posters) with very high motivation to get larger quicker. So we have to be careful of what we say or how we say it. These high intensity maneuvers should be discussed with the proviso and warnings that you should not attempt these without long-term conditioning with basic PE routines and then only with great care to reduce the chance of injury.

I do disagree regarding the 102% erection and do agree with ttt that it can be achieved. If you measure your penis at peak erection several times without penis rings and get a consistent average, this average will be your 100% value. Any increase above this is going to be greater than 100%.

I believe you are right on target with at least what I have posted on this thread. Others have differed. We’ve have disagreements on this thread (which has become quite long) but I think there has been some better understanding by all regarding mechanisms. How these connective tissue mechanisms apply to different PE maneuvers at different levels of erection is what has caused the most lively (and fun) debate.

I personally have no feelings about turtling (other than as a PI) one way or the other.

The way I view the tunica, I would guess that you can have greater than 100% erection, if you supply greater force on the tunica than you normally are able.

The tunica has some elastic properties. This is discussed in the study that Avocet found, (which I will link below, since I don’t think anyone has yet).

An elastic material has a property called modulus of elasticity, which describes how much the material will elongate when a tensile force is applied. If it takes a lot of force for small elongation, that material has a high modulus, and visa versa.

Elastic by definition means that it can deform and return to its orginal position. If you stretch beyond the elastic range (beyond 100% elongation), then you have begun plastic deformation, meaning the material will not go back to its original shape.

So I picture the tunica as a fairly high modulus elastic material. If you picture the neoprene fabric of wet suit, I think that works.

So when your penis starts to become engorged, I believe you are not intially stretching the tunica, but unfolding it until it gets to it’s unstretched circumference. At this point you are partially engorged. Then, blood pressure increases which increases tension on the tunica, and causes a little bit of stretch. When you are at full erection, that does not necessarily mean you have reached full elongation of the tunica. You could still be in the elastic range. So, increasing internal pressure above normal, could cause a little more stretch.

I did pull that paper, if you want a copy I can email the pdf to you.

At peak erection I don’t think elastic fibers (of which the contribution of elastic fibers to collagen fibers is quite low) play a role at peak erection. Yes the tunica is a viscoelastic structure. However, stretch beyond the peak erect state is not a function of elastic fibers, but in fact is super tension stretch of collagen fibers, much like in the heavily loaded muscle tendon.

My thought is that lymph build up from clamping is specifically due to trauma. Lymph build up from pumping is somewhat do to trauma, but at low pumping levels it is due to pulling force of the vacuum. Your thoughts?

Wad, it is my theory due to experience that stress over time allows the tunica to be come pliable and stretch past 100%. It is like stretching your hamstrings, I can barley touch my toes in the first 2 minutes, but after 15 minutes, I am lying my stomach flat on my thigh reaching way past my toes. Now if I continue to due this regularly my starting point will be much farther along. This just seems intuitive?

Certainly you see the same thing while stretching your penis, why wouldn’t it be the same for girth?

Wad and Pudendum,

I said this in a prior post, the goal would not be to find the maximum amount of pressure the penis or tunica can withstand, but the least that provides for growth.

I know that the Sickle-cell anemia models point to a low but continual pressure at work.

Also, you can generate far higher internal pressure with clamping with far less edema being generated.

However, higher isn’t always better.

I think that one of the big variables in PE is the tunica. I think someone quoted a study where they said there can be a huge variation it the number of layers and thickness for different men.

I think that the tougher your tunica, the more a technique like jelquing, (which allows you to stress small areas of an “unloaded” tunica) or leveraged stretching (like Wantsmores, which use a blunt edge to focus force into an “unloaded” tunica or hanging, which again allows stretching an “unloaded” tunica.

What I mean by “unloaded” is again, I believe due to the woven structure of the tunica, its a lot like a seat belt, when its loose, its stretchable, when pulled tight, its very solid, except its more like a fabric “woven” of seat belts.

So the more “inflated” the tunica is, the stronger it is structurally AT THAT MOMENT, not including the potential for tissue toughening as a physiologic response to high stress (different issue than I’m discussing). I think effective PE produces a certain amount of “tissue derangement” or spreading of the “seat belt” threads within the tunica “fabric”. I believe it this “derangement” that is critical to gains, and if the tunica is very strong, unreasonably high levels of pressure on the “loaded” fabric would be needed to produce any derangement.

That’s why I believe if a guy isn’t making gains with reasonable levels of force from clamping or pumping (and ruling out over training and neg PIs) that I think he would respond better to unloaded methods that focus force into small areas of the tunica.

I always crack if the evidence is overwhelming :)

Well said.

Excellent post.

You’re very clear and your logic is sound - it accounts for the variation’s in individual anatomy. Which was my frustration earlier in the thread. I don’t think one can say “Pumping is better” or “Clamping is better” across the board (even in Italian). I think each individual responds differently, which is why some things work better for some and not others.

This is a great thread, though. Lot’s of good thinking going on.

I agree, with this statement. I think if you are breaking down lifting techniques for instance, it is good to know the reasons why things work, but it is not always necessary. People get wedded to one method or another and get offended if someone says they are doing it wrong or not doing it in the best way.

Certainly one exercise does not work for all and if you find something that works, keep doing it until it doesn’t work anymore, but please share the information too.

Again like the gym, just about any form of exercise will help you, just do not over due it and hurt yourself. Now if you are an elite athlete trying to get that last tenth of a second off of the 100 meter or if you want to try to gain 2 inches on you dick in 4 months then there is a real need for a science. But other than that, you can wander along and make gains and do well, you just might waste a little time.

Iguana started a thread sometime back presenting an abstract of a study of the tunica where he was interested in applying some of the findings to practical PE methods. (Weight/Math Question - ???) The abstract was rather sparse with information and the purpose of the study was unclear. I promised to get a copy of the whole paper. I finally did today (I had to dig it out of the library stacks). This study directly addresses some of your ideas here.

They looked at tunicas from cadavers. Yeah it’s from dead guys penises. But because the connectives tissue is predominantly non-cellular fibers and even after these guy (and their dicks) were pickled in formalin, their tunica architecture remained intact and close to that of us live guys. They were concerned about tunica rupture and the tolerances of it to pressure tensions. So they exposed the penises and tunica parts to several pressure stresses.

They took pieces of tunica and with a special device (a tensioometer) were able to expose it to measurable pressures and then to hold this stretch so they could prepare it for viewing by microscope. They compared the collagen and elastic fiber at rest and while stretched. They saw that the tunica is mainly collagen and only a small part elastic tissue. The collagen fibers undulate like the look of a side winding snake. The elastic fiber component run longitudinally attached to the bends in the undulations. It appears that the elastic fiber pull the collagen fibers into this sidewinder snake look when the tunica is at rest. (see the top panel of the attached file)

When the tunica was stretched by pressures at about 375 mm Hg, the collagen fibers pulled straight just like the elastic fibers and they run parallel. They also found that if the pressure tension was allowed to return to rest before the tunica was prepared for microscopic viewing, the tunica fibers returned to this same rest orientation.

When the pressures exceeded 750 mm Hg, the undulation orientation of the collagen and the elastic fibers is destroyed and does return to the rest orientation position. (See the bottom panel of the attached file, the broken elastic fibers stick out like hair).

They also looked at the elasticity coefficient of the tunica. Even though the tunica is predominantly made up of collagen fibers, the elasticity coefficient of the tunica as whole is mid way between that of the collagen and elastic fibers individually. They believe that this is due to that undulation pattern of the collagen fibers in the tunica at rest. This fiber "slack" adds to the elasticity of the tunica as a whole.

I think this orientation makes the tunica the "high modulus elastic" tissue you described. The "unfolding" you describe is the straightening of the undulating collagen fibers. You’ll have to educate me about the skeletal structure of a piece of neoprene, but from what you describe unfolding must be true.

I don’t agree that at peak erection you have not reached full elongation. If collagen fiber elongation is not near maximum when the tunica compliance at peak erection is so very low, it’s damn close. Yes, you can stretch above 100%, but as pressure rises and tunica wall tension rises, the risk of tunica damage rises as well.

This is an interesting study. There is other information that I will post in Iguana’s thread.

Bitsch M, et al. The elasticity and the tensile strength of the tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa. Journal of Urology 143 (1990) 642 - 5.

mravg - I think your assessment is correct.

There is a difference. When you stress your hamstring muscles (and specifically the tendons and sheaths) to touch your toes, you are stretching against an unloaded muscle. The tunica at peak erection is loaded. The difference is critical. The tendons elongate (as I have mentioned before) from connective tissue remodeling at a longer fiber length. The tension added to the tunica at peak erection leads to tension-induced connective tissue remodeling at a larger fiber diameter not length (stronger not longer).

I agree.

It looks as though the tunica structure is not woven like a seat belt. The post I just made regarding the tunica orientation with undulating collagen fibers suggests otherwise. BUT, this does not in anyway dilute your premise.

Nice post.

I think this is correct to a point. If someone is performing high intensity PE and making no gains, I am concerned that it is because of the building of stronger thicker connective tissue fibers. I think that even unloaded tunica tension may not be successful if performed at this time (though I may be wrong). I believe this is the point where the decon break is a factor. I believe that after collagen fiber diameter decreases, lower erection level PE would be more successful.

I’ll stick my neck out to say that very high intensity PE against a loaded tunica (peak erection) may have short term successes but I believe that unloaded tensions (meaning at a lower erection level) are far more beneficial and have a higher chance of yielding success.

You can not write the information presented in this thread as being useless because of individual variability.