Possible reason for PE induced growth

I know many of you guy’s eyes glaze over when someone presents a “science-based” posts. Well, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), I’ve got another one.

After posting on other threads regarding the theories of why we grow and by what proposed mechanism, I find that my 2¢ tended to be disorganized and almost contradictory. I believe it was because we continue to dance around the theories of micro injury (IPR) vs. sustained stretch growth.

I have done some research both on the forum to investigate what has already been posted and have dug into the medical literature regarding connective tissue remodeling in response to stress (tension/stretch).

I want to layer onto the thoughts of Bib (re: microtears), Hobby (re: sustained stretch growth) and others.

I believe that the evidence I will present from studies on connective tissue response to stress will add to our understanding as to why this whole process works on a cellular/fiber basis.

As has been noted many places elsewhere, connective tissue varies throughout the body.

Connective tissue is composed of the cells (fibroblasts) that make all of the substances outside the fibroblasts that make up this tissue (Extracellular Matrix; abbreviated ECM). Fibroblasts play a central role in tissue remodeling and wound healing processes

The ECM consists of collagen fibers (several kinds), elastic fibers (elastin), and ground substance (the other components are not important for this discussion). The fibers are arranged from very random to more organized orientation (depending on the connective tissue type).

The quantity of the fibers in the connective tissue determines the type; few (loose connective tissue; under skin for example) to many fibers (dense connective tissue; tunica, ligaments, tendons, for example).

Sustained stretch or intermittent stretch? Consider this:

The principle is that short connective tissue fibers restrict stretch and must be broken and longer fibers allow stretch and can be elongated (quoted by Hobby in past):

And so goes the debate for injury-induced vs. non-injuring sustained stress-induced growth. As ModestoMan suggested several years ago, these theories are not mutually exclusive. Recent evidence in numerous medical articles supports this.

Fibroblast (like all other cells) talk to one another through what is known as cell signaling. Substances from other cells (growth factors and substances released by cells of the immune system known as cytokines) attach to specific proteins (receptors) on the cell surface. This binding causes changes inside the cell. It may turn on biochemical reactions or turn on special genes to make new substances in the cell. It is by this process that a mechanical load, either by prolonged or intermittent (cyclic) tension affects connective tissue.

To understand the studies, the following information is important. Tension on a connective tissue can be uniaxial (along its long axis, while it shortens in its perpendicular direction) or biaxial (both direction). Studies have been performed with either of these types of tension loading. This tension can be static or dynamic.

Fibroblasts are embedded in ECM and subjected to tension, compression, and shear stress. Tension loading is most common, especially for fibroblasts in tendons and ligaments.

The maximum stretch of a ligament or tendon depends on its type and location. This tension is generally beyond between 5 – 12% of its no-tension stretch length (that would be equivalent to BPFSL without tension with regards to at least the suspensory ligaments). Most of the studies looking at the effect of tension on fibroblasts and ECM were done at about 10%, stretch which is considered to be well within what would be seen in normal physiology.

Mechanical loading of cells has been shown to affect fibroblast division, and the turning on of genes and the production of proteins needed for ECM production. The extent of this production depends on the connective tissue location and loading conditions.

There are substances on the surface of fibroblasts (known as side groups) that make them sticky to the different portions of the ECM. These sticky projections make the fibroblast stick to ECM over the entire cell surface. An individual cell can attach to numerous surrounding fibers. When the connective tissue is stretched, these “glued” groups are tugged on by the moving fibers causing the cell to distort.

The deformed fibroblast and/or the stretched sticky side groups causes the activation of very specific proteins known as enzymes. These enzymes act as a catalyst to speed up a chemical reaction to produce special chemicals that act as messengers inside the cells (intracellular messengers). These messengers travel to very specific areas on chromosomes to turn on particular genes. The DNA of these genes make RNA which are then used to make specific proteins.

Multiple fibroblasts are connected together by small fused areas called gap junctions. Any deformation in one cell appears to signal other connected cells through these junctions to respond in a similar way.

Some of the genes turned on make many of the subunits making up collagen, elastic fibers and ground substances. These are then packaged, transported and released outside the cell to make replacement (for injured connective tissue) or new fibers and ground substance.

Other genes are turned on. There are classes of substances called Connective Tissue Growth Factors (CTGF). There are more than one. These CTGFs are also released outside the cell where they diffuse to other fibroblast to make them divide to increase fibroblast numbers (fibroplasias) and for them to also make more subunits for fibers and ground substance.

Even though this statement talks about tendons, it is likely to be true for ligaments and other connective tissues as well. The suspensory ligaments and tunica do not have the fixed attachments (both ends) and stretch length restrictions that tendons have. Tendons respond by increasing the mass of the tendon to deal with the increases in stress caused by repeating muscle contractions (particularly during training). Their “goal’ is to reduce the chance of rupture, tears or complete severing from bone. Penis connective tissue would not necessarily respond by increasing fibers to the degree as with tendons. However, does this explain the plateaus in PE?

Studies have shown the same mechanisms in skin and blood vessels in response to tension.

This process, of course, is not quite as simple and varies from connective tissue to connective tissue. The kinds of fibers and ground substance produced and CTGF may differ. The invasion of an area of connective tissue injury with other immune cells (white blood cells and macrophage) causes the production of other growth factors. This may alter the response and may explain why the repair of some moderate to severe injury might form abnormal amounts of collagen fibers. This thickening is known as fibrosis (which is abnormal or pathological). Peyronie’s disease?

Disuse of a connective tissue (bed rest, limb in a cast, for example) or aging causes the number of fibers (collagen, elastic) to decrease and in the case of tendons and ligaments (disuse atrophy). In regards to the penis this may explain the retraction of the penis with age (“hung like and acorn”). Does this mean that if PE is stopped, atrophy occurs? Does this mean that at least some stretching is necessary to maintain permanent success? Good questions, but at this time neither can be answered.

This may also explain the findings of the following report showing tunica changes in impotence, age and Peyronie’s Disease:

The authors suggest that the loss of elastic fibers cause these problems. However, they do not rule out the possibilities that the “disuse atrophy” in guys with these problems may in fact be the cause of this loss of these fibers. This study made an observation but did not prove the cause. I personally think this is classic chicken or the egg argument; does the fiber loss cause theses problems or do the problems cause decreased erections that lead to the loss of fibers.

Be aware androgenic and anabolic steroids have been shown to have a negative effect on this connective tissue mechanism at least in tendons:

This is only one study and in tendons, but it deserves consideration by us.

None of the reports that I found have done studies on the suspensory ligament or the tunica. We can only infer that these came process occur in the penis. We all think our penis is special, but it is doubtful that the connective tissues in it are any different from any other.

This process could be used to explain the mechanism of the response to our PE efforts on a cellular level. Stretch of the suspensory ligaments and tunics along its long axis (hanging, extenders, manual) and circumferential stretch of the tunica with pressure by jelging and clamping (pumping?) both generate tension. This tension must have similar effects.

These studies were done with static and dynamic tension. How this relates to static stretches by hanging or with an extender, or with dynamic stretch with manual stretches or jelqing is a big unknown.

This information does not end the discussion on PE effect on penis connective tissue to cause enhancement. In fact, This will increase discussion. How much tension is necessary? Injury vs. stretch-induced growth? Does this explain plateaus? Deconditioning breaks? Is enhancement truly permanent over the long term? Is continuing PE necessary since tension generation may be necessary for normal connective tissue physiology (homeostasis)?

It is at least interesting.

Sorry this post is so long.

I have pdfs of all the references in this posts.

Other references:

Schild C, Trueb T. Mechanical stress is required for high-level expression of connective tissue growth factor. Experimental Cell Research 274 (2002) 83–91.

Wang JHC, et al. Mechanoregulation of gene expression in fibroblasts. Gene 391 (2007) 1–15.

Wang JHC, Thampatty BP. An introductory review of cell mechanobiology. Biomechanics and Modeling in Mechanobiolology (2006) 5: 1–16.

Length… I want to see theories on girth!

Kazoo girth is more of a vascular phenomenon. Hence when one takes Ginkgo one gets a fatter dick. When one takes a diuretic or caffeine, length may not be affected much but loses girth.

Nice work Pudendum. A question I think a lot of are asking is whether one can restore the penis to a newbie-like state of relative weakness after having reached a plateau in gains, or whether the increased strength and therefore the plateau is more or less permanent.

To get past a plateau, does one need to ignore ones penis and take anti-Viagra? For how long?

I used to be a very avid weightlifter. I’ve done only easy workouts very infrequently over the past 10 years, but I’m still extremely strong compared to the average person my age. Give me a month and I could probably bench 300 again. Is the penis the same way? I think probably.

Very interesting!

First let me say I applaud your effort, research, and interest in the science of PE. It seems too many guys are readily content to blindly
continue tugging on the penises in hopes of a miracle. This does seem to support the continuing theme of low force stress over longer periods of time = greatest elongation. The most interesting point to me is the statement “The tissue slowly remodels because a biochemical response, triggered by constant force…” While this has been assumed and presented many times, I think this is the first time I have seen external support for this notion. (…everyone rushes away to find their ADS.)

There is some really great information here. Thanks for sharing!!!

Modesto, I have to disagree with you here. Most penises can only bench press 175lbs at best. :)

How can we get back to the Newbie stage? Now if we can figure this out we would all be oh so happy.

I don’t believe these studies are exclusively applicable for length. The tunica unlike the suspensory ligaments is capable of biaxial tension that I described, though not at the same time and not by the same PE maneuver.

Your right, it is a vascular phenomenon, but I believe that the increase in cavernosa is caused by a pressure-tension stress on the tunica. This tension is more circumferential than longitudinal. Pressures in a jelqing stroke particularly in a near erect penis can be quite high. This could cause a remodeling response that could lead to increased capacity within the tunica and thereby increase girth.

The reports would suggest that to maintain normal penis physiology after reaching goals, some kind of continued tension to decrease the risk of disuse atrophy would be necessary. ADS might be an option. It would give a low level cycling stretch with walking. This might not be necessary. I’m not sure that lifting 300 lbs. with your penis is necessary. However as ModestoMan says he did intermittent workouts to maintain strength. “Range-of-motion” type stretches and light jelqing might be sufficient to keep the connective tissue happy from a physiological standpoint.

Very interesting thread and excellent work, pudendum.

Now, I would focus a moment on this topic

If one has a normal sex life, where the “disuse” is?
Is common observation that even male pornstars have shorter penis when get older.
I think also (not statistics allowing) that the shortening of the penis regards more the erect state than flaccid state of the penis.
Doesn’t it support the hypothesis that is the reduction of elastic fibers that cause shorter penis/weaker erections?

Sorry to bump here again, just to understand: you said

<<This tension is generally beyond between 5 – 12% of its no-tension stretch length (that would be equivalent to BPFSL without tension with regards to at least the suspensory ligaments).>>

There is something different here between penis ligaments and others ligaments: if you stretch your penis you are appling a tension, so the point of reference should be BPFL, not BPFSL; or am I misunderstanding something?

Yeah, this is an interesting topic. Use with regards to the penis in my mind is erection; disuse would be lack of erections. Impotent guys and many older guys (not us of course) don’t have erections. This would mean that their penis will suffer from disuse. It would be interesting to see biopsy results of formerly impotent or older guys who used ED agents frequently. I would hypothesize that these individuals would have a fairly normal elastic fiber components.

The biopsies in the guys with Peyronie”s disease were taken within and at the edge of the Peyronie’s plaque. These areas do not stretch with erection (this is why the penis curves), therefore it would represent a similarity to an impotent guy in this location. They unfortunately did not take biopsies anywhere else on the penis of the guys with Peyronie’s disease. I would hypothesize that there would be a normal elastic fiber component in normal areas if these guys had normal erections otherwise.

I may have been confusing when I explained this. When they talked about maximum tension they first took the ligament or tendon (or parts of it) and pulled them to their rest length without stretch. The 5 - 12% they’re talking about is the percentage of length increase (beyond this rest length) of the piece of ligament or tendon when it can be stretched no further (maximal tension).

I’ll agree that it is difficult to determine when the suspensory ligament engages when the penis is pulled and then again when it is pulled to its complete stretched length without tension. This length probably resides somewhere between BPFL and BPFSL, but it might be hard to determine.

I think when you’re talking about the tunica, its normal relaxed stretch length would be longer. I would suspect that using the BPSFL would be appropriate here, therefore the percentage of stretch to reach maximal tension would be measured from here. Reaching maximum tension (in this case longitudinal length) would probably require any of the number of tunica specific PE methods to achieve.

Some might argue that BPEL would be normal stretch length of the tunica and that there is still a capacity to stretch beyond to reach a maximal tension.

The problem is when you apply studies of isolated connective tissues to the whole penis. Determining the equivalent lengths in the penis as a whole is at best a guess.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are, GREAT JOB PUDENDUM!!!!! I love the fact that you have done so much research on this journey of our big dicks, that we are all going through. You have truly out done yourself this time.

Creditability galore, I am thankful that when you wrote all this down, that you also simplified it, for us non medically speaking members, to help us grasp all of the information, that you have put so much time and effort into.

I expect that with a post like this you will be busy for quite some time answering the question’s that will no doubt follow. And, with the results that you have achieved through PE, are able to back up everything that you write. Good luck my man, and I will talk to you later!

I’d say :BPFSL is, by definition, the maximal length of the whole penis. There is one first problem here: when we stretch the penis this way, are we stretching at the same degree all of tissues of the penis? Maybe some parts are over-stretched, others not (I hope it’s clear what is my doubt). TOW stretches (penis grabbed, in example, at 1/3 of length with one hand and at tip with the other hand, then pulling in opposite directions) could make sense, at this regard. Fulcrum stretching seem also to be appropriate, I think.

Another easy thing to say is: 8%+ (median of 5-12) than BPFSL is damn a lot -near to impossible to reach, whatever techinque you could use; if one gets immediately this 1/4”-1/2” more length, I bet he get a serious, long-healing injury.
Looking at anecdotals data, those who tried this approach had no good results, by what I know; speaking for my personal experience, it was a failure.

On the other side, 8%+ than BPEL seem easily reached, for the average guy, everytime he measure his BPFSL : could he obtain a longer penis simply taking this measurement? “No” is the answer, I think everybody could agree. So, I see only two answers: a) that percentage is different for connective tissues of the penis; b) BPEL < maximum not-stretched length < BPFSL.

In the same direction: how can manual stretching be effective? The answers I see: a) that crucial elongation is reached; b) penile tissue’s could be deformed in a specific way, different from others connectives tissue of the body. The last answer is less reasonable (Occam Rasor), but abstractly possible.

Anyway, the percentage of elongation we are speaking of seems to be more easy to obtain, for the tunica, with girth work: when clamping, reaching 1/3-1/2 of inch more than normal EG is not infrequent.

This question has been, continues to be, and will continue to be difficult to answer.

I found a couple of studies that may give us some understanding on the effect of disuse on collagen fibers.

The Lateral Collateral Ligament from the hind legs of dogs immobilized In a cast for six weeks had a 25% decrease in collagen fiber bundle diameter when compared with normal dogs without immobilization. (Tipton CM, et al. Influence of exercise on strength of medial collateral knee ligaments of dogs. American Journal of Physiology 218 (1970) 894-901.)

Another study had young growing rats with their rear legs suspended in a weightless (not used) position for 5 weeks. Collagen fibers in the Achilles tendon of the suspended rats showed a decrease in the surface area and diameter when compared to normal rats. This disuse caused a 43% reduction in the maximal surface areas of collagen and a 23% decreased in collagen fiber thickness. (Nakagawa Y, et al. Effect of disuse on the ultrastructure of the Achilles tendon in rats. European Journal of Applied Physiology 59 (1989) 239-242.)

It appears that a period of complete disuse of 5 - 6 weeks causes a decrease in the diameter of collagen fibers. The deconditioning seen in these studies required complete immobilization and disuse for the period of study.

Now I don’t know too many guys who are going to put their penis in a cast to completely immobilize it or are going to take an anti-libido drug to keep from having an erection or even think of going 5 -6 weeks without sex or masturbation. However these reports may give us some guidance.

I’ve read recommended decon breaks of 6 - 12 + weeks on this forum. I think that these are probably reasonable periods to reduce fiber diameter so that maybe your penis will be closer to the newbie state than the thicker plateau state.

I have only one concern. If you go much longer than this, I would be concerned disuse might cause reduce fiber length as well, and you don’t want that.

You raise very good points. It points directly to the problems translating of the studies of individual ligaments or tendons (or parts of them) to the penis as whole. As we all know the penis is a complex structure. Loading some connective tissues might overload others.

Even though it is our goal to advance stretch, I agree that attempting to advance the penis as a whole to 8% beyond its relaxed stretch length (I agree that this is probably less than BPSFL) could cause damage. There are definitely internal limiting factors keeping the penis from stretching too far, say with high weight hanging, but this does not rule out the chance of injury (though hangers are expecting to break short fibers so as to stretch long fibers;”ligament pop”). The stretch limiting structure (what ever that is) could be injured. I would think you would agree that my prior statement is important here.

As we have debated before, I don’t believe that the connective tissue of the penis is different than anywhere else in the body. You can definitely say that the connective tissue arrangement, structurally speaking, is definitely unique. However, there are other examples of dense connective tissue coverings like the tunica; the spleen and the liver. In fact, the spleen of some animals (like the dog) expand with blood to great volumes and then contract to release the blood. The connective tissue covering in these animals restricts the absolute expandability, like the tunica. It also has venous sinusoids and trabeculae very similar to the cavernosa. Researching the published reports of the dog spleen may be very applicable to us.

I definitely agree that the circumferential tension on the tunica is easier than a lengthening tension. There have been suggestions on this forum that it is necessary to achieve length before girth. Increasing collagen fiber size with girth work may make it harder to gain length unless far greater tension is used with longitudinal tunica stretches. Possibility of injury rise with super-maximal tension.

Thanks for your important interactions.