When I have made great gains, I...

Ok,class lets summarize from the “big dogs”;

Wadzilla (by the way, God bless you for your current Avatar!)
quote;
“I definitely believe its possible to overdo it - especially by doing marathon jelq workouts. You end up suffering so much cumulative trauma that the tissues have no chance to bounce back…
I’ve noticed this with stretching as well. If you stretch too long and with a lot of intensity, it seems that the tissues tend to tighten. I try to maintain that fine line between loosening & tightening…
After a positive workout, my unit is plumped up, fatigued but not exhausted, and my woodies are 100% within about 30-45 min after (erections are slightly compromised for that brief post-workout interval - but not much after).”

(If I can summarize, he notices that he gets tightening (shorter, smaller, less flexible)…all indications of tissue in a repair stage. If he sees this…he BACKS OFF! NEGATIVE PI’S.)

(After a good workout, unit is plumped up, slight fatigued feeling…good erections after about 30-45 minutes. Very specific, POSITIVE PI’S.)

Dino9X7
quote; I always shrink for a while if I overdue it but I’m not sure that’s a bad thing or a good thing…

(He is observing his PI’s, you MUST observe and determine if it is a sign of too much, too little or just right.)

gprent101
quote;
I think my best gains have occurred when I backed off the intensity and eliminated discoloration. When I began PE, my tendency was to go overboard be it jelqing or pumping and I lived with the resulting discoloration for a long time. Although I got perceived gains, it may have been more swelling then gaining and much of it did not cement.

( he saw negative PI’s, backed off and made great gains!)

Ending with an erection is also a good sign you haven’t gone overboard during your PE session.
( positive PI’s)

Avocet

quotes;
The first sign of gains for me was an apparent increase in the amount of skin I had on my cock when I was flaccid. (positive PI’s)

As for workouts - no matter what those workouts happen to be - if my pattern of nocturnal/morning erections is not its usual frequency, I assume that I have either overdone something in PE or that my Life stress levels are unusually high or that I am just tired from doing whatever in normal life…
(watching for negative PI’s)

If sexual erections become slower to happen or are not hard enough for me to perform, I look at the same issues as above…If my libido drops off, ditto.
(watching for negative PI’s)

If you normally have no erectile dysfunction and you can’t end a PE session with a good hard-on, you have very likely overdone some aspect of your PE. Ending with an erection is to me the best sign that I have done everything right. Ideally, PE should end with your feeling turned-on, not turned-off. You should leave it feeling a somewhat “horny” edge and for the rest of the day you should be able to have sex (in whatever form you prefer) if that comes your way an hour, or eight hours later. (more PI’s, excellent observations!)

Peforeal
quote;
But, I’ll say that when gains came steadily, my dick always felt healthy and getting erections were easy to arouse.

Also, even when I overdid the time/pressure with pumping and my dick “shrank” the next day due to abuse, as long as I gave it a 2-3 day rest, it bounced back to life and usually slightly bigger. That’s when I realized that I could overcome my newbie dick abuse with an appropriate amount of time-off and rest.
(are you paying attention to what he just said? Excellent response to seeing a negative PI!)

I rarely get this feeling anymore, but when I was making my best length gains, I used to feel a slight internal “tingling” or “itchy” sensation in my dickshaft. It wasn’t uncomfortable, just sort of “odd”.
( both positive and negative PI’s, and a very specific to him positive PI…WATCH FOR YOURS!)

OK class, is it any wonder that these all guys have achieved EXCELLENT gains?

Almost to the man, they were aware of their personal PI’s, both negative and positive.

That is to say, they were watching the signs that they were getting it right…and the signs that they had over done it!!!!!

What have we learned class?

YOU MUST PAY ATTENTION TO BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE PI’S!!!!!!!!!

If you ever hope to make gains, it is a MUST!!!

The only other way is to be damn lucky!

At this point, you all should be getting this concept.

If you go back and re-read almost ANYONE who has gotten great gains, has done this process. It is almost impossible to gain without doing this process.

If you are just blinding going through a routine, I can almost guarentee that you are making minimum to no gains.

There are the lucky ones, but most of the “lucky” ones were doing some short simple routine, so we can learn from that too.

So put it into application, be creative.

Instead of slow incremental increases, you could try doubling your routine if all the positive PI’s are there, but no gains.

Or,if you have a bunch of negative PI’s…stop completely for a week or until the positive PI’s return. Then do half or less of your workout.

Be smart, creative and DISCIPLINED! Once you have done a proper workout…keep your hands off your dick!

Use your mind to determine the amount of pe needed, then don’t do more than that.

Get back to this thread with your results…and lets all advance down the road to larger dicks together…well maybe not together… thats a little gay… but you know what I mean ( no offense WestLa)! :)

Sparkyx

I was reading through Andrew69’s posts the other day, and I find myself wanting to ask him what the heck he was doing with his jelqing! Voodoo magic or something? :) He made great gains and I wonder if he could describe the feelings, how tightly or softly he was gripping, or just anything that might add to things here. One thing I noticed was he said his jelq strokes were much faster: one or two strokes per second, rather than one stroke every two or three seconds, If I recall. Maybe that means something.

I’m glad you asked :D

Everything I ever do is based on feel. Whether it is PE, weight lifting, making love to my wife…whatever it is, is based on feel.
When I jelqed (always in the shower after at least a 5 minutes warm up), it was with a 30-40% erection, straight down and at a rate of approximately two strokes per second. It just felt right for me.

The best way I could describe the feeling was that the relative lack of blood in the penis caused the blood to “pool” in the ends of the cc’s and formed a “plug” which then stretched the penis with every stroke. It really does feel more like a stretch than a “traditional” jelq.

The result could best be described a series of four or five hundred quick dynamic (bouncing) stretches.

I was mindful of avoiding discolouration (because I was doing PE by stealth more so than any other reason), so maybe this also played a large part in my results.

It may have been possible that I had a very high LOT, but I doubt this as no matter how much I have gained since reading about the LOT theory, my LOT has not changed by more than 1:00 hour. My erection is, and always has been very high (virtually 12:00).

My other thought it that I am simply a genetic freak, destined to be a porn star :chuckle:
Sorry I could not be of more help to you, Gentleman.

sparkyx,

darn it.. Why didn’t I notice this thread earlier ?! Would have saved me a lot of trouble finding out about the different states your penis can be in, as in “normal flaccid”, “pulled back flaccid” (mostly ligaments in states of plasticity), “very small flaccid” (mostly too much penile injury in the tissue of the actual shaft) and their counterpart in erect states (mostly length / girth though.. in other words: an injured / healing penis will be smaller _and_ less girthy.. it’s easy as that).

Thanks for summarizing :)

Ys

Ys,

Well put!

Yes, a healing or traumatize penis will be smaller. It seems to stay smaller for longer periods of time the greater the amount of tissue trauma.

I lost about 1/2 inch for about 2 weeks after ONE DAY of clamping while pumping…and it felt GREAT at the time, and fine afterward! The main indicator of overdoing it was the decreased length and girth.

Now I find, about 30 minutes of contraction is as much as I want. But really, you have to see what kind of growth you are getting along with the contraction.

I may turn out that no contraction is best, or maybe even 2 days of contraction is best…you have to see what is working best for you.

Personally, I think it will turn out that little to no contraction, and daily mild stimulation is better than less frequent harder stimulation.

That is something that feedback from forum members will tell us. So far it seems that daily mild stimulation is best.

Don’t feel bad about not noticing this thread, it is fairly new.

I would like to get this concept across to more and more people until it becomes a standard part of every routine.

If you don’t pay attention to your PI’s, you’re flying blind!

The more people understand this and use it, everyone will greatly enhance their chances of success. It is still no guarantee, but it will help eliminate a HUGE unknown factor of whether you are doing to much or too little.

It may turn out that like bodybuilding, most of us have a fairly narrow window of success. You must get the right combination of stimulation to recovery to get growth.

If you do too little or too much, you will get either no results or actual shrinkage.

With the understanding of PI’s, you have a real shot at success.

Spread the word!!!!!

Sparkyx

Ok, here I go again about the “tissue expansion” model, I’ll bet you guys are tired of this :)
Real quickly (got to go to work), heres a summery of what I believe on this subject;

(1) In tissue expansion, a saline balloon is put under the skin and inflated slowly over several weeks. This
causes the skin tissue to undergo mitosis (new skin cells are created). The interesting thing here is that the mitosis is in response to the stretch, and happens while the skin is under the tension of the stretch.
There is no rest needed! I believe this is because unlike hypertrophy, there is no metabolic or
cellular damage being done.

(2) The documented cases of extended priapism (mentioned elsewhere in this forum), that caused a
permanent enlargement of the penile tissues in those individuals, is very much like the tissue expansion
model only with blood instead of saline.

It would seem if too much stretch is applied, then damage occurs. The body seems to “toughen” and
contract tissues in reaction, to prevent future damage if the stress reoccurs. If this damage threshold is
crossed, then several rest days for healing might be required, or the injury perpetuates and no progress is
seen.

So I feel the tissue expansion model is the one to follow in our line of endeavour. If we create just enough
stress to bring on mitosis without crossing the damage threshold, no rest days are needed, and we should
see continued progress.

For instance, one might jelq for 5 minutes every day for two or three weeks, check progress. If none, add
five minutes and continue in this fashion of increment. When progress is seen, stop at that level, do no
more! I believe there is a fine line between the stress needed to bring on mitosis and the damage threshold.

Welcome to my thread SB!

Great stuff..exactly in line with what I have been experiencing and researching from the good gainers, in relation to what are the best type of forces to apply.

What I am getting at here primarily is what to watch for as far as indicators of getting it right or wrong.

I think that you can and MUST have DAILY indicators of being on or off track, otherwise,you can get into a lot of trouble in a weeks time.

Granted, with the minimum you are describing, it would be hard to over do it.

My question is, perhaps 5 minutes of a very mild jelque, but 5-10 times a day may be more effective? These are approaches I would like to see tried out.

Or maybe the guys doing ADS with one pound may be on the right track…or a combination of both.

Anyway, I get your drift…I agree with it. I just want people to read their PI’s and add it to what ever their routine is.

Sparkyx

I think I’ve realized a couple things:

When I take a slow, steady, and “no pain” approach to my sessions, I notice slow but steady gains, as well as healthy erections
When I “push the envelope” with more intense sessions I notice slightly faster gains or “pops” but then absolutely nothing for a period of time.

So my question is: Which is the faster gaining method? - I think it’s the same, but the slow steady approach seems healthier.

Wadzilla: To me this all makes sense. Your latest couple of theories no doubt work, but do you think you would see constant slow gains without plateaus if you performed less aggressive exercises? Or was this the only way you personally saw gains is by stepping up your intensity? We are no doubt all different and I realize there must be fine lines between not doing enough / doing it just enough / and going overboard. I may start judging my sessions on my erection health and how many of them I get throughout the day.

The PE wheels keep on turning…

This is a great thread with good info!

Oops, Sorry Sparyx, wrong thread. Too many darn windows open. Wish I could delete it :(

Haha quote;
“When I take a slow, steady, and “no pain” approach to my sessions, I notice slow but steady gains, as well as healthy erections
When I “push the envelope” with more intense sessions I notice slightly faster gains or “pops” but then absolutely nothing for a period of time.”

Many report this type of thing. I think that the slow approach is actual growth, or at least slow enough stretching that it doesn’t cause an inflammatory contraction reaction.

The intense route actually is stretching things which can and does lead to an inflammatory reaction, which then requires healing before you can proceed. It may turn out for some this will produce good results, but even those folks will not progress if they don’t allow for total healing before inflicting more damage.

If you re-stress your unit before you have fully recovered from your previous session, you WILL NOT PROGRESS!

That is why it is crucial, after you pick your mode of stimulation, that you start with a basic amount and then see what kind of PI’s you get.

Lets just take my experiment, clamped pumping….great stuff! However it may turn out that 5 minutes a day is all that I can handle and recover by the next day.

Or maybe, it maybe best to do 10 minutes every other day, or every third day.

The great thing is that we have many members trying different things, so we can get some fair information that can give us a general indication. From that general indication, we can then try it ourselves and use our PI’s to fine tune it to our best results.

Lets just say, I say the clamping pumping works well, but because of its intensity, my recommendations is to start at 3 in hg or less, and no more than 5 minutes to begin with.

Well, hopefully, reading my recommendations, you don’t start with 30 minutes at 5 in hg!

And if you do, at least you are paying attention to your PI’s. If you see that immediately following the routine, you get unit shrinkage for most of the day, and during the nite and morning…no erections.

This will be an immediate indicator that indeed, it was way too much for you. Being the informed PE’er that you are, you wait for a return of your normal PI’s.

Lets say that it takes 5 days for your PI’s to return….well now you know that 30 minutes at 5 in hg was WAY too much!

See? This way we can get more PRODUCTIVE information, and as we all report back it will build our collective knowledge base…and we will all benefit.

No more of this, I do this and this for this and that time, and I get really big while I’m doing it…and I think this will work great. Not only useless information…but can be counter productive.

What gets you huge (as opposed to just slightly larger) while your doing it may actually be way too much force, and result in a major contraction reaction. That is exactly what happened with me with clamped pumping! Huge at the time, and caused a 1/2 inch contraction reaction that lasted over 2 weeks!

Regardless of the approach, it is just GUESSING, unless you watch for your Physiologic Indicators (PI’s). This is the religion I’m preaching here and wish to spread.

Like I’ve said, I believe most of us have a narrow window of effectiveness. Too much or too little and you miss it.

Determining how much is beneficial can only be done by watching and UNDERSTANDING your PI’s.

Sparkyx

I see you do agree. Your last post somewhat regurgitates my theories in my previous posts, maybe this wasn’t a wrong thread posting after all. But you are right, paying attention to your body is the way to go, don’t go running on a broken leg! :) It would be nice to set up an experiment / study with participants of this board to find the most prominent “tell tail” PI signs of overwork.

MAN! What a great thread. Way to go Sparkyx!! I just have one question. What’s a PI?!?!? JUST KIDDING!!! We should put that in the abbrv.list and flag this thread so it stays at the top of the list. This should be a must read for everyone doing PE.

I JUST started PE (I am on my first rest day ever doing a 3 on 1 off newbie routine). Funny thing is, this morning my morningwood wasn’t as “defined” as usual. It was there, just not as strong. I just passed it off as being a bad day…lol. But now that I have read this post in its entirety, I beleive that the newbie routine is too strenuous for me right now. I think what I am going to do is back off to a 2 on and 1 off routine and only do a 15 minute total workout (including warm up and warm down). I’ll keep that up for a week or so and keep an eye on those PI’s and report back periodically for everyone’s benefit. Then we’ll go from there.

THANKS AGAIN! THIS IS AN EXTREMLY TIMELY THREAD FOR ME!!!

ynarevith73,

Thanks for the comments. I WOULD like this to be added to the newbie threads with a sticky…we’ll see if the powers that be see the wisdom of this concept.

What we need is more guys getting back to this thread with the results of including the PI’s in their routines…and the results.

Especially guys who haven’t been making any gains…and then begin to see results as a result of modifying their routines because of the PI’s.

This will slowly but surely spread this concept. The quicker the better!

So if you see that it is helpful to you, please get back with your progress. That would be the best way to say thanks and help others to add this to their understanding.

Sparkyx

ynarevith73,

I just re-read your post more carefully, and I see that you already said you would get back to us for the benefit of others! Sorry about that…and thanks for having your head in the right place already!

Thanks,

Sparkyx

SmilingBob,

We really don’t need to set up anything! Everyone has already been experimenting, now we just need them to kick in with their neg and positve PI’s.

The negs are pretty easy. The positives are best reported from the period of time when you have seen your best growth.

That is actually why I started this thread, to gather that info. I also sent a bunch of PMs to guys I know who have done well.

I didn’t want speculation as to a positive PI…I wanted real indicators when you have REALLY made gains.

As I have stated earlier in this thread, there is a trap in PE! That trap is we get a lot of reporting to exercises that swell the unit for that day or two. Everyone gets excited and jumps right into doing it.

However if you follow up on these threads, you find they kind of die out. If you can get any real follow up, usually it not only DIDN’T lead to gains…it actually led to SHRINKAGE! My clamped pumping is a great example.

So, I was looking for when people were getting honest to goodness growth surges…what they SAW and FELT and MEASURED!

My findings are in this thread.

What I would like to get is PI’s from hanging, ulis, jelquing, pumping etc. I think right now we have some damn good general PI’s that apply across the board.

There may be more specific PI’s from the individual exercises…I don’t know yet.

Armed with what we have here, I believe is enough for most of us to get started into some real improvements.

Hopefully, with time, as this concept becomes part of concept of PE, it will be a natural part of every discussion on routines (time, sets, wts.etc) and what PI’s to look for and avoid!

Sparkyx