Observations and Questions on Extenders

No confusion here. 6-8 hours of visoelastic elongation or creep before further elongation more or less stops. Something upon which your very own source comments on saying, “Creep deformation is not permanent, and the tendon will slowly resume its original length.”

My point is that this viscoelastic elongation causes your body to make more connective tissue depending on the magnitude of elongation, it is not in itself something that produces gains.

Marinera, I have never insulted your reasoning. If you would like to know more about fibroblastic connective tissue remodeling/synthesis, mechanotransduction, or viscoelasticity, just ask. I have been researching this stuff for almost a year working on a thorough description of connective tissue mechanics and growth processes. I would be happy to describe those things I mentioned in my above post in greater detail or provide references, I just didn’t have time to post the entire thing fully cited above - or I would have already posted it on the forum in its own post.

Well if there is some form of disagreement on the science then quote the reference. By the same token, if one lists a research paper, they should be sure the conclusions they draw are derived from the premise presented in the paper. Not because of some extrapolations that must be made from the references only listed by the authors. I prefer to observe what anyone posts and formulate my own direction for substantiation. Certainly no one should insult or feel insulted because this format is not for the purpose of scientific proof. I’ve seen in other forums, equating the principle of penis lengthening to the neck lengthening seen in some African tribe which of course is utter nonsense. That’s the only form of base ignorance that doesn’t contribute to useful discussion. So far, everybody’s cool. Relax. The best evidence will surface, I’m sure in a gentlemanly manner.

I am not ‘insulting your reasoning’, I am showing you one of you recurrent mistakes. Of course you are free to believe this critic has some merit or not, but I would look into that in your boots. You are prone to look into anything that can claim to to be vaguely scientific and find confirmations to your desires, when you don’t find matter for that you simply fabricate supposed evidence, eventually adding supposed ‘anecdotically’ evidence.

I think you should walk the adverse path: any time you read something that seems to show that a given hypothesis is true, try finding reason why it could be not true.

I want to make just an example: years ago, a guy came up with a stretcher that could be worn 24/24 and could apply a lot of force (10 lbs if I well remember, which was unheard at the times). A couple of guys, arguing pretty much in the same way as you do, managed actually to wear the device 24/24 for several months (or so they said). They gained nothing.

It is just an example, I could make many others, but I’d say you can make an effort and take the hint by yourself : I mean, it’s not that there is antything new in what you often argue, or in your sources. So, posting again and again the same old things and trying to backup them with the same old arguments, already proven incorrect when not completely wrong years ago, belivieng that you are bringing the light, isn’t going to help much. Of course you are free to go ahead that way, what will happen is that nobody who knows something on the topic will care to reply.

Feel free to think that. I am done with the discussion, it could have been valuable, but it turned to into this. Two things I will say on the matter: First, understanding the response of connective tissues to stretch is a large part of what I do for a living, as is understanding how to objectively read research. I come on here and try to broadly apply what I have learned to PE. Maybe it is the voices who immediately call out "nonsense" rather than attempting to understand what I am saying who push away those who are interested in the discussion. Second, read the first paragraph and think how it may be applied to yourself. It seems like I am only speaking about things that have been "already proven incorrect" when I am not agreeing with you, no matter how well I back it up.

So if anyone reading this is interested in what I was saying, go ahead and read this . It is all about mechanotransduction and how that effects collagen synthesis. The ECM section is most applicable to the discussion here. There is so much more on the subject, but that is a good jumping off point. I promise to get a post up that goes more in depth when I have some time to get it all organized and typed out. I have a massive stack of papers from the library at the college I work at and it seems like it just keeps getting bigger each time I go to actually write the review. :)

Lets’ do a bit of history here: you said that wearing the device 12 hours per day for 4 months gives on average 1” in erect lenght, that you have to wear the device at least 4 hours per day, and that optimal would be 12+/day. I said I was doubtful about all that, and to show that yours opinion was accurate it’s you that regurgitate ‘studies’ older than my grandfather; then I just picked one 1 or two of them and showed that your calculations are flawed: you were summing up number from ‘studies’ on people with Peyronie’ disease or radical prostatectomy and applying the (uncontrolled) results to healty males, studies measuring SL increase instead than erect length, etc..

Now you want to show that, according to your superior knowledge, I can’t have the opinion that ‘The more time the better’ is not necessarily always true either. I backed up my opinion (which, of course, you are free to believe is wrong) with a decent source saying something very very clear: after 6-8 hours of continous traction the elongation of connective tissue plateau. Now, according to you, what they are saying is that after 6-8 hours real elongation begins; which is a case of trying a remedy that is worse than the illness: if you can’t have permanent elongation without pulling on your penis, tendons or ligs at least 6 hours per day, how do 99,99% of PEers get their gain? How do dancers and athletes become more flexible? Does manual physical therapy requires more than 8 hours per day to be effective? You see what you argue leads to absurd consequences or not?

And I am still waiting for a demonstration that cutting ligs makes the penis longer in erect state, for most of healthy guys, as you know and I ignore because, according to you, you are the sole one having seen a cadaver dissection : which kinda sounds like ‘I have seen things that you, humans…’.

Now, let me tell that this forum gots over 200,000 members, so you can expect to find a good number of people who work in the physical rehab field, doctors, engineers, astronomists and whatever: we have all of them, name a category and a number of them are here. So, sorry, I don’t feel obligated to believe what you keep teaching around, because the few times I have checked what you are basing your thoughts on I found big flaws.

Yes of course is just my opinion and you can have yours.

I have to say I was enjoying this thread immensely until for some reason it has taken a turn, unnecessarily. It appears to me that the impasse is over dealing with two separate concepts as one concept…and hence the conflict.

I think the two major components of gains in PE are these;

1) tissue stretching
2) tissue growth

Tissue stretching OBVIOUSLY can occur in a fairly short period of time. Tissue GROWTH on the other hand is a subject that I have great interest in (as should all that have plateaued and wish to continue with gains). I don’t have the research on it, but I was very excited that this thread would shed some light on the subject.

I believe Marinera is primarily referring to tissue stretching, while Root is alluding to tissue growth…and hence the misunderstanding.

I believe Root, you are saying that it is AFTER max stretch has occurred that the research indicates that growth begins to be stimulated? I just ordered a screw type stretcher (hopefully here tomorrow) and I really would love to have some definitive guidelines for TISSUE GROWTH, in that I believe I have gotten about all the stretching I am going to get.

As an aside, there were some good articles about the “wavy” structure of healthy connective tissue, that tends to be lost with age. I believe that most of the “gains” in PE is stretching out the “waves” in the connective tissue, hence the quick newbie gains sometimes experienced. After that point, I think any significant gains must come from “growth”…and that is what I consider the real potential in PE….so I am excited with this thread.

I also think this is where extenders have the potential for us to tap into this mechanism, so I would love to get the most up to date information on it. Minimum times, minimum and max force levels, ideally BEST force level for the tissues we are dealing with.

Thanks for a great thread so far!

Thanks for helping to restructure the discussion sparkyx.

My only real and permanent gains came via a turnbuckle and clamp device I built myself that I wore in a hot bath for a half hour at a time five days a week with week ends off.

Since then I’ve stretched, hung, clamped and returned to the mechanical device briefly to no avail.

Hanging gave me some gains but the cost to my life was too great and I have since lost most of those gains.

Pumping seems to be working, but I would love to read more about the stretching.

Without derailing the topic, many times guys get gains early on, only to be unable to repeat it, even with the same approach. This could be explained with the “straightening” the wavy connective tissue and whatever method you used was really just the first approach that was effective. I have heard the same story with jelquing, pumping, hanging etc. That they achieved initial gains, only to find it stopped working, and nothing else works either.

This is why I have been keenly interested in stimulating true growth…it would allow you to gain (theoretically) year after year.

Let’s go back to the original nature of the thread and save the theory for another dedicated thread. Personally, I want to hear what both Marinera and Root say. And I will likely start something of a theory thread myself because I have some new considerations in that regard. But for now, please reference the first post on the extender I mentioned. I have now ordered a KR Extender with the vac attachment V4.2. Should have it by tomorrow and I will post up a comparison and my impressions. However, clinical evidence of true gains (in the erect state!) cannot be denied. If anyone (hopefully twenty people) here has used an extender exclusively and have gained 1.25 inches erect, tell us about it.

Roots keep up the good work. I am reading this but do not have the biological training to contribute much. But has Sparky has said this is a very useful subject and especially pertenant to those of us who may be currently plateauing.

Ecto, I did but I think I might fit into Sparky’s description above “Without derailing the topic, many times guys get gains early on, only to be unable to repeat it, even with the same approach.” I grew from about 5 1/4” to about 6 1/2” in about 12 months using mainly a cheap spring based extender though I used a slider extender to do the last bit. I have appeared to plateau recently.

Great gain, never the less. The thing I have difficulty wrapping my mind around is what seems to be very low tension capability of the device. I put it on and crank it out to the equivalent of maximum flaccid extension. Then turn the screws more and nothing will secure it. It pulls out from around the glans before I feel much lig tension. I do wear it however 5-6 hours with max tension it will supprt before the head deforms or pulls out. The instructions do sayto adjust the tension such that it is 3% to 5% longer than the original flaccid state at the beginning of the session. So my flaccid 4.125” + 5% is about 4.25. Seems ridiculous. I can easily crank it out to 5.5” very comfortably. Perhaps this is all it takes and patience is in order?

Are you using it with the strap or the noose? If you are using the surgical tube for the noose, I would suggest replaing it with a soft thick string, like those for eyeglasses.

I’ve tried it with silicone strap. Silicone noose which hase a foam tube around it and a velcro strap. The noose allows for the most tension currently. Could it be this seemingly thick septum is just resisting the force capability of the extender?

I don’t see what the force capability has to do with the septum or your penis slipping out, other than you are applying too much force improperly. The faster you apply the force, the stronger your penis will react. So the instructions are about right, you have to start wearing it just sligthly over FL and increase a bit the length say at 10 minutes spans.