When I have made great gains, I...

I think it’s reasonable to assume that at least some length gains can be made from the tunica, since ligs couldn’t be a factor in girth gains, which also happen. I’ve never really stretched BTC and managed to gain (not spectacular ones, but gains just the same), and I’m confident that a good portion of that is tunica in my case

Lig gains are considered fairly permanent in the sports injury world. There have been some experiments in trying to shorten them by using heat. In much the same way that there is a heat range for extensibility, there is a higher heat range where proteins can be denatured which causes contraction. Which, while on that point is a good reason not to use extreme or painful heat.

When I was stretching doing the newbie routine, it felt like the penis itself was ‘the weak link in the chain’ rather than the ligs. I know I have had lig pops in the past, but often I didn’t feel much pulling or soreness in the ligs. It’s more like the penis is absorbing the stresses, and getting the ligs to move is like pulling against an un-moveable concrete wall or something! It’s just a really rare event to ‘notice’ anything happening in the ligs. That’s just a short term view with my limited experience, or course. Maybe it’s more of a ‘slow and imperceptible’ thing. How do you know when a gain has been cemented, so you can take a break? What ‘yardstick’ do you use to gauge this by?

I wonder if it would do anything to change the angle I hold my cylinder at, while I’m pumping. Instead of holding it straight out ‘perpendicular’ from my body, if I moved it up or down would that do anything. If I angled it down, it might ‘pull’ on the ligs a little more, sort of like hanging straight down or BTC. If I angled it up, maybe it would stretch the bottom of the tunica a little more. Hmm… a guy could move it left and right, too…

During the period of my best gains two elements stand out in memory. I was doing a lot of repetitive wet heat application, then with a very warm (not hot) wash cloth, and I had reduced my time in the tube (I am a pumper) from 20 min. sessions to 6 - 8 min. sessions, just more of them.

I would do a warm wrap, then just a few minutes of flaccid stretching in all directions followed by 100 jelk strokes, then 6 - min in the tube at low (3 - 5 HG) pressure. Then repeat the whole process for a total of 4 or 5 sessions, heat after coming out of the tube each time. (Keep in mind that I was well conditioned at this point.) I never did more than 400 jelks total. I performed only that one initial stretch routine as a warm-up exercise. I ended each PE session with a good erection just to make sure that I had not overdone and was still in good shape from an erectile function point of view.

But go figure.
I had already gained 1 inch length by pumping alone - no manual exercise except mild massage. With the above routine I gained almost 1.5 inches more L (1.39 total).

From having read so many post here over the years, I am convinced that there is no One Correct Way to approach PE. Best to go by the way your cock feels all the time. If it seems to “enjoy” a routine, do that routine. PE should be stimulating, even mildly sexually stimulating - not self torture.

Captn’, Electron, Shiver and Avocet,

Thanks all for the input!

Avocet, your last paragraph is exactly the direction I’m trying to take here. Rather than a specific do this many reps with this much force, I’m trying to get at physiologic responses of proper stimulation to serve as guidelines as to whether you are applying proper forces.

For example, when you get your gym workout dialed in, you can make gains every time you go in for quite a long time until you hit your natural genetic potential. At that point it will slow down, but with intelligent training you can continue to make slower progress.

So, strength is a measure of proper training. Other indicators of over training are joint soreness, fatigue, disinclination to train, etc.

So first you need a baseline sensible training program, then you can fine tune it based on the physiologic responses of either increased strength or indications of overtraining. With these tools, you can make excellent progress.

If you just do a bodybuilding or strength routine from a magazine with no understanding of indications of getting it right or getting it wrong, and how to adjust it to your body…it becomes a total hit or miss proposition.

I should know, I was in that boat for years!

So lets apply that concept to PE, which I think is totally appropriate.

We know that we have at our disposal, many excellent ways to apply expansive forces to the penis. Hanging, pumping, jelquing, clamping etc.

Where we drop the ball is in application, when we don’t have guidelines for when it is too much, too little or just right.

That is what I’m trying to get here from those who have gotten good gains.

What are your indications when you have gotten it RIGHT? Larger at the end of the workout, longer flaccid that day? The next day? Pleasant tingling? What? What did you notice when you were “in the zone”?

Also, what have you noticed when you are OVERDOING it? Pain during PE? Decreased quality and quantity of erections? Unpleasant soreness? Red spots or discoloration?

What have you noticed when you are UNDER doing it? No enlargement, no soreness, no change in erections, etc.

Get where I’m going with this?

If we can get some good guidelines for indications of under, over or just right, we can then use them to guide us in our favorite approach to let us know whether we need to do more, less or keep with what we’re doing.

Let me give you a rather shocking experience I just have had. I have taken a few days of observation to make sure it is for real…because I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it, over and over, myself.

I have been doing a routine lately of moderate jelqing and squeezes in the morning on awakening. My penis is nice and warm and elastic from the nites sleep. I have made sure to make it a pleasant experience, so never more pressure than is comfortable. I have been doing this daily,for about 15 minutes.

Later in the day, about 3 times a week, I have been pumping with a velcro strap as a clamp. This I do at about 3 in hg for about 10-15 minutes about 2 sets.

I measure my gains by lines drawn on my tube. I measure at exactly 5 in hg as my standard.

I have been making the steadiest gains ever! I was up to my 7 3/4 inch mark at 5 in hg, and starting to go past, even at 3 in hg! At lest a 1/4 inch, and actually an 1/8 inch past that. MY penis seemed huge and super hard when making love to my wife, and she was going crazy!

Well, I got enthusiastic at that point and also decided to use a small cable clamp around the balls too. Holy cow batman! Huge! Then I used the pump on top of that…really amazing! So amazing that I ended up doing that many times that day, and some of the next day.

Results…I am now measuring over 1/2 inch SHORTER at 5 in hg! I didn’t want to report this until I was absolutely sure that is accurate. Now I can accurately say, for 3 days in a row now, over half an inch shorter at 5 in hg!!!

So boys and girls, what have we learned from this?

I think we can both make gains AND losses far faster than we would suspect.

We all have at least heard of people making amazing gains in the beginning, and sometimes after being at it for a while.

We have also heard people go backwards.

In my case, I believe through over doing it, I caused inflammation which caused some contraction.

I have had the experience of being in “the zone” and stepping dramatically out of it, all in one to two days!

So, getting back to the reason for this thread, lets work on those indicators of too much, too little and just right and see if we can come up with some guidelines that will serve to take some of the guess work out of this process.

I for one can add this one, and I don’t think any of you will argue…if you lose 1/2 inch of length overnite…you over did it!

Sparkyx

Well one common thing I can see here with me is the enthusiasm thing. You “get all excited” about it, and then f*ck yourself over with the enthusiasm you had. Same thing I did. So maybe we can chalk this up on the list, too. When you find yourself “getting all excited” about it, there’s a disappointment coming up, right around the corner.

Enthusiasm is like an addictive drug: bad, bad, bad, so stay away from it.

Well, something like that, anyway. :nodding:

Ok electron…but instead of saying “be careful about enthusiasm”, lets make a rule;

1) if you are making progress, don’t drastically alter time, force or repetitions in the false belief “more is better”. If you must add on, do so incrementally, with enough time (eg one week) to access your response to the increase.

For example if you are jelquing at a certain intensity level for 10 minutes, try going to 15 minutes for a week and then remeasure. If you are making as good or better gains, you can add another 5 minutes, if you have diminished gains, return to 10 minutes.

How does that sound? See, this is the process I’d like to develop. I think we can come up with some very useful guidelines using RESPONSE to the forces we use, to determine the next appropriate step.

I’m thinking, we could come up with a list of indicators of nailing it…indicators of over doing it…and a list of sigbs of under doing it. Then a systematic approach to correct the error.

For example, I should probably lay off all PE for a few days to a week and then remeasure with in tube 5 in hg and see where I am at.

Maybe, break out the tube and just measure daily at 5 in hg, and see what changes occur over, say 7 days. I might find that after a 5 day lay off I am at my longest, and over the next 2 days, begins to shorten again. This would be useful information for myself and others. At least give some idea on how to get back on track when over traumatized, and some method of determining when the optimum time to start again.

Like with wt training, I found if you use your warm up wt as a test wt., when you were still not recovered from your previous workout, it felt heavy. When you were fully recovered if felt light. That would be the ideal time to do your workout again. For me it was about 7 days after the previous workout. Before that, I wasn’t stronger than last workout, after 7 days, I wasn’t stronger either. At 7 days (actually 6-8 was the range, 7 ideal) I would be stronger than my previous work out.

See, using “physiologic responses” to guide your stimulation program.

So with this “overtraining” maybe when my dick begins to relax back to its previous length may be the best indicator of recovery…what do you guys think?

Sparkyx

Some further thoughts in this line.

When I am in the zone in wt training, I blow guys minds with how much strength I go up every time.

All the while they are making very little progress. The determined guys will change their workouts every month or so, and make progress for a few weeks, plateau, then change again.

It is totally hit or miss for most guys, not really knowing why they get stronger, weaker or stay the same. Not knowing if it is too much or too little.

Constantly adding new exercises, or changing reps, sets or intensity. Or doing the same thing month after month with no gains, and wondering how long it will take to “kick in”? Way too many variables in one case, and no variation in the other.

Its reflected exactly in PE.

What is the difference in the gym between that type of response and getting steady progress? Just what I’ve been talking about, knowing the physiologically signs of over, under or just right.

I think it is EXACTLY the same in PE, and I am sure we can greatly improve our success with improving our understanding of the indicators.

We see so many guys just randomly throwing in new exercises, increasing force and sets ad infinitum! Hoping that they somehow will hit the magic routine and see growth…and sometimes they do! Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could vastly increase you chance of hitting the penis lottery?

You must start with a low, sensible baseline, then gradually increase just one factor at a time. If you add too many new factors at once, it will be just pure “luck” if you get a consistent good response, and it won’t last long!

So, back to the theme of this thread, what are good indicators of too much, too little or just right?

Sparkyx

More thoughts;

Lets just say in wt traing, I take someone under my wing to help them make gains. Lets further say that he has over-trained for years.

Even if I give him the “perfect workout” he won’t make any progress. He is sooooo over-trained that he needs to completely lay off for about 2-4 weeks to recover enough to make progress.

This is the guy that will get stronger and bigger for a few weeks from “doing nothing”! Because he is RECOVERING!

Its like rebooting his computer, just to clear off the mess he has made.

I think that many of us, that aren’t making progress are way “over-trained” and that is one of the reasons that a layoff is productive. Hell, I remember reading one of our guys went on vacation (MrTips?) did no PE, came back and couldn’t even fit into his tube! Perfect case of over-training and the layoff allowed his tissues to repair and show the actual progress he had made.

So maybe a rule to add is;

—if you have been at this for a while (6 months-?) and aren’t making progress, take 4 weeks(is more needed?) off and measure yourself once a week, see what happens with the layoff. Then, start with ONE exercise at a minimum amount (lets come up with a consensus for hanging,jelquing,pumping etc), and increase by a small amount once a week while making a once weekly measurement check.

If after you go from a low amount up to a high amount (once again we will need some consensus on the upper limit of the ranges) over a period of several months, then it would be prudent to switch to a different exercise and repeat the process.

This is a systematic approach that is going to give you a much higher chance of success than just winging it.

Like I said before, one of the problems with PE is it feels a little too damn good, which can EASILY lead to over training. My pumping while clamped fiasco is a perfect example, in ONE FREEKIN’ DAY lost a HALF INCH! And it may take a week or more to recover! No wonder so many make little to no progress!

I can’t help but recall guys who have written that they jelque in the shower for 10 minutes daily before work and have had great results. Perfect example where no matter how good it felt, they only had 10 minutes, it PREVENTED over-training. Even if they wanted to do more, they couldn’t.

Alright, I think I got most of my brainstorm out, now lets have you guys kick this around in your heads and lets do this! I really, really think this will advance our percentage of success!

Sparkyx

Brain still storming!!!

For the consensus on upper and lower limits, it will be with the understanding of physiologic indicators.

For example, lets just say Avocet and Peforeal say that a reasonable lower limit on pump vacuum is 2 in hg.

We could then add that you should see some increased size of your cock during the 5 minute session. If it is productive, you will have increased flaccid hang during the day, and you will find the quality and quantity of your erections at nite and morning will improve. Further after a week or two you may see some increase of your max in tube length at 2 in hg.

So, lets just say you start at 2 in hg, and you don’t see any of those indicators after a week, then you take it up to 3 in hg for another week and access for the same indicators.

This process should continue until you begin to see early stages of indicators of too much force. Spotting, discoloration, decrease in erectile quality and quantity etc.

At that point, drop back down to your most productive force. Once you find your optimum vacuum force, you could increase time or sets incrementally using the same process to access response.

So lets say you find 3 sets of 5 minutes at 4 in hg work the best for you. You could then just stay there until growth begins to slow, then you could try incrementally increase one of those parameters or you could try adding hanging or stretching or whatever.

The key again would be to start with a minimum and incrementally add as you watch your response.

Thats why I want veteran gainers in all the different methods to kick in with their observations, so we can give guidelines and indicators.

Sparkyx

ok, now I’m finished…for now :)

I was reading my stuff…how about this?

On the upper limits, under no circumstance violate the physiologic indicator of “pain”. I should never go beyond mildly uncomfortable, with slightly to very pleasant being where most guys make their best gains.

Now I don’t know if that is true or not, thats what this thread is for. So far, that seems to be what most good gainers experience.

That is the idea;

general routines, with physiologic guidelines and a systematic approach= high percentage of/ and faster success!

Well, now I’m getting confused again.

“Use the nighttime wood as an indicator”

So now I think I should bump my pump back up to 3½ or 4” hg, and stay in my little “achey feeling” zone.

Then: “Stay away from pain”

So now, I have to go back ot the beginning, and ask my original question again:

Does anybody even know what I’m talking about, when I describe my “ache feeling” thingy? Or am I just “talking to myself”, here? A simple yes or no would be much more helpful than some vague allusion. Just tell me yes or no, like I’m a two year old. I will understand that, we have something “concrete” to talk about, and we won’t be assuming anything.

Now, if you DO understand what I’m talking about, is this “ache feeling” IN the pain zone, or not? Yes or no. An I “in” the pain zone, “out of” the pain zone, or what? Right “on the edge” of it? Nobody ever says for sure. Where do you draw the line? It’s a simple question… at least I thought it was.

See. it always goes back to the same old thing: vague descriptions don’t do any good.

Some instructions you read say: “use gentle pressure” or whatever. Well what does that mean, exactly? If I’m a construction worker, and I’m accustomed to lifting 100-pound reels of wire around, then “gentle pressure” to me might mean 5 pounds of force, or 20 pounds for that matter. If you work in an office, and the most strenuous thing you do is lift a pencil, then “gentle pressure” to you might mean half-an-ounce of force. It’s a very vague term, and that’s what gets so frustrating about it. It’s all relative to whatever your particular life experience is.

Words like “gentle” and “medium” and “lightly” and all that drive me crazy! I’m ready to go koo-koo bonkers and bang my head against the wall!

*electron goes more-or-less insane at this point, drool and saliva dripping from his mouth, while he laughs hideously and starts babbling funny noises incoherently and begins swinging from the chandeliers…* :idiot:

See what I mean? So now I have two rules, that conflict with each other: (1) “Stay out of pain” (and I don’t know if the “ache” is even considered “pain” or not, nobody seems to know) and (2) use “wood” as an indicator. I cannot do both, because they are directly opposed. So which one is more important, and “overrides” the other? Or what? Where’s that chandelier at, anyway? I got some more drooling and hideous laughter to do… :D

:)

This is a great idea. I will post mine soon.

For “ache” I kind of assumed you meant that feeling like when you’ve had lots of sex and you’re worn out. It’s not pain, but more of a deterent discomfort.

With my current routine I don’t even go that far! The routine is about preperation (heat, sleep, hydration, supps etc), and the stretch is basically a couple of minutes stretching against a ruler. Each workout I’m looking for a gain of 1mm, which is hard to be objective about with a blood inducing bone pressed stretch, as you wonder if you have the same stance, ovservation point etc. You just get used to all the variables after a while, and log in a spreadsheet what you honestly think you’ve measured.

The key point here is that the exercise remains the same whether there is a gain or not. What changes is the time off. If I see a gain then I’ll try to get another one 3 days later. If I don’t see it I’ll wait another 4 days. If I still don’t see it I’ll wait another 5 days etc.

The critical point is “what I’m looking for is the gain”. People talk about routines all the time, but I’m not interested in routines, I’m interested in gains. I pull the thing and look for a gain. If it’s ready then the gain appears, if it’s not then I wait. I’ve been doing this for over a month now and it seems to work. It’ll probably take at least a couple more months to see if it is a valid model or not.

The trouble with exercise is it can advance or retard your gains. If you go for a run, people are asking if you are getting fitter. The question should be did you run better? It’s a subtle distinction but based on entirely different critera. I don’t want a dick that I can do clamped horse uli bend jelq edged slammer stretches. I want a big dick. So, I change the environment to see how that can happen, I don’t want to see if I can induce purple spots or fatigue.

If you do an incredibly tough workout in the gym, it might give you bragging points because you tried so hard, but is it really the best way to train? If it takes a week to recover then imho you’ve lost an opportunity to train more because you did damage. If you feel pain or discomfort then you know only that you’re in a territory that is beyond what you are used to. It may be progressive, or it may not. It means only that you are experiencing discomfort and nothing else. It may well be the case that when experiencing discomfort that you usually make progress, but it’s important to be aware that it is not the *same* thing. Sometimes you may also make progress and not experience discomfort, but how do you measure that? Use a ruler, and challenge everything else.

Yes, that “worn out” feeling would describe it. I think you got it. So I guess we could assume, then, that this is not inside the zone of “pain” that they say to avoid.

So you PE for one day, then wait for four or five days to see a gain, then PE for one day again? That’s an interesting approach, just as valid as anything I guess. Fosusing on the rest periods, instead of the workouts. Or am I interpreting it wrong? It would be interesting to see what you discover.

That’s all I’m really concerned about too, is gains. But getting there seems more elusive than a fox. A million possibilities, and no certainties. :)

>that I can do clamped horse uli bend jelq edged slammer stretches<

Haha you got me laughing there. Sounds like that phoney wrestling they have on TV. Maybe you shouldn’t have mentioned it, somebody will probably think it’s a real technique, and start trying to do it! LOL :)

You forgot about the inverted “W” stretch, remember that one? heeheehee…

I wouldn’t call that pain exactly, at least not in the sense that it is major trauma. I suppose it’s more like the penis equivalent of exhaustion after a full day biking or running where you are tired but still have a sense of well being.

Yes I’m focusing on the interval, and the environment. I also have a whole new series of experiments lined up for the new year once all the stuff I’ve ordered arrives. Primarily this is of course because I want gains, but secondarily because we have over 27,000 members and we’re all doing the same few exercises. With that kind of head count, if we were all exploring different areas we’d make astonishing leaps in the art.

While it’s undoubtedly better for newbies to do a newbie routine (since it’s tried and tested), I’d like to see a few vets, retirees and plateau members pushing the envelope in ways other than just hanging more weight or doing more jelqs.