When I have made great gains, I...

Hey electron!

The reason I didn’t go into the “feeling” is that it will probably be different for everyone.

The feeling will only be valid if you notice when YOU get that feeling that you SEE gains, or LOSS during that time.

As Shiver is talking about, we need to shift away from just routines…and begin to look at results and early indicators of results.

So to get back to the “ache”, the only time I get that is when the tube is pressing to hard into my pubic bone, but I sure that is totally different from what you are saying. That is why going by subtle feelings are too difficult to get any real reproducibility.

One feeling that I think is important is pain, I believe it should ABSOLUTELY be avoided.

So, now to be of some use to you.

By pain I don’t mean subtle don’t know if it is pain or ache or what. What I’m talking about is “owww God bless it…that friggin’ hurts!” So I think you can agree, that is way too much of what ever you’re doing.

So short of that, you will have all kinds of different sensation. Pick what ever you want. I suggest starting with a minimum of discomfort, and actually “pleasant” is a good place to start as a guideline. But because you are a pumper, I would suggest starting at about 3 in hg. for one set of ten minutes. At this vacuum, it should fall in the “pleasant” range, but if it is “painful” to you, decrease the vacuum force.

This becomes your starting point. I would suggest to measure your erect size in the tube at 3 in hg (or whatever your starting point is), when you FIRST start. I believe this will give you a more accurate picture of where your gains are at. I think measuring after 3 hrs at 20 in hg will give you a very distorted view of true gains ( of course I’m being funny here, but I’m making a serious point).

Do this for one week and see what kind of progress you have made. Lets say you have made some progress, like 1/8 inch. Great, now you can look back and see that you had such and such feelings during the pumping…now it has meaning to YOU. You NOW know that those feelings indicate that you have it about right.

If you are making good progress with the above time and set, you can then either stick with it until it no longer gives progress or you can try increasing it. Either increase vacuum, time or sets. I really don’t recommend changing too many parameters at once.

It could very well be that 3 in hg is perfect for you, and adding another 10 minute set improves your results.

However lets say you go to 4 in hg and add another set…. and you lose progress! You won’t know what did it! See? So change one parameter at a time and use it for at least one week. Make sure it is a small change, not a big jump. For example go to 4 in hg, or add another 10 min set at 3 in hg…see?

This is a slow, deliberate process. It may take a while to find what works best for you, but it is a much surer way in my opinion to find it!

Overall I believe it is better to do a little everyday, than do a lot that takes a week to recover from. I have no proof of this, but seems to be what works best for most guys, and I believe it keeps scar tissue down to a minimum.

So to sum up;
1 Start with a minimum base line like 3 in hg for one ten minute set/daily.

2 Measure your penis length in tube at 3 in hg, erect. Measure BEFORE you start your routine. Measure daily. Marking the tube is a easy way to keep track.

3 Make incremental changes if no progress is seen after a week. Keep track of force, time and sets.

4. DO NOT GET CARRIED AWAY! Stick with your game plan. One over enthusiastic day can set you back a week or more, and invalidate your results for that entire week.

5. Pain should be avoided (indicates trauma, not stimulation) and if you are doing it correctly, you should have a normal or better than normal amount of nite and morning wood. Any decrease of nite or morning wood is an early indicator of over doing it.

Does that make sense to you now? Pain is a guideline of overdoing it, wood is a indicator also. So you are using physiologic guidelines to help you know if you are in the zone. You then use a systematic approach with your routine (within reasonable, known parameters) to develop a routine that works best for you. Do you see what I’m trying to set up here?

On the topic of #4, I took my own advise and measured myself erect in tube at 5 in hg ( my base line). I have regained over 1/4 in of the more than 1/2 of loss. Obviously it wasn’t a true loss, rather a reaction or tissue contraction due to inflammation caused by too much trauma that one day.

Whats interesting is, it is now about 4 days later, and I am still not back to where I was before. I goes to show how quickly we can react to overstimulation! Now remember, I didn’t really get any soreness, or didn’t really look that much smaller just eyeballing my unit…but a whole HALF INCH!

What I did notice was a decrease in morning and evening wood. I truly believe it is an excellent indicator of over stressing your unit.

Now if I had been measuring daily, it would have shown up the next day, so I now know that to be an excellent indicator also.

Imagine if you are over doing it for weeks or even months! Who knows how long it would take to recover. It is obvious to me now why some guys get terrible results, they are probably overdoing it from the beginning…and just add more trauma to an already overstress unit, as they get frustrated!

Sparkyx

I don’t think any of us can answer your question, electron. The fact is, the margin between pain and pleasure is so thin and so different for so many.

Instead of “pain,” maybe think “hurt.” You know clearly when something hurts. When it does, you want it to stop and you try to avoid the same sensation in the future.

In PE, maybe the best way to describe a “good ache” is to remember when you were 18 and you were making out with someone. You remembering this? You had such a fierce erection that it felt like it ached. But did it “hurt?” No. It was one of those Stop-It-I-Love-It aches. Nothing dangerous was happening. You just had a straining hard-on.

Thanks Avocet…good description!

Yes, yes, I get it. Thanks guys. So you mean real bad pain, not just a little discomfort.

I bumped it up to 3½” hg yesterday, and last night the morning wood is right back again, just in one day! :)

I’m at 20 minutes a day and I noticed in an earlier trial that at 3½ or 4 and 20 minutes, it just barely begins to form a donut. Not much, but just the beginnings of one. AT 3” and 20 minutes it doesn’t. Maybe I will have to limit my times to 10 or 15 minutes but use the higher pressure. I divided it up into two 10 minutes sessions, with some jelqs in-between.

The higher pressure brings back the wood, and a better stretch. I think it’s growing a little too. I took an informal BPEL measurement before pumping last night and it looks a quarter inch longer, but I want to wait another week to really measure carefully and get all “official” about it. I’m noticing little “tingling” feelings throughout the day, too. Like little “twings” and “twangs”… hard to describe.

Electron,

As I have said, I find that measuring when I FIRST get in the tube, to be most accurate. I use a 5 in hg vacuum as my constant, then mark the tube.

You can do what ever you choose, just make sure it is reproducible, and you do it BEFORE your exercises. It is a more accurate indicator of what is really going on.

Yes, I think morning and evening wood is an excellent early indicator of either being on or off track.

I think those little “twanges” may mean anything. I think spontaneous erections, partial or full are an EXCELLENT indicator of being on track. I kinda’ think that increased flaccid hang during the day is actually a partial erection…excellent sign of doing something right!

Keep up the good work, don’t get carried away, and keep us posted!

Personally, I’m beginning to think that if you get “in the zone” you can see at least small gains weekly! If your smart and lucky, maybe large gains!

Sparkyx

Yes, this was just a “plain old” erect measurement before any stretching or pumping. It’s been three weeks, and I was curious!

I do know what is going on it the tube, too, I’ve been watching that all along. Good thing! :)

My starting length was 5.75. For the first two weeks 3” hg would pull it out to 6.25… and when I tried 3½’ or 4” hg would stretch it to 6.5… but those higher pressures also gave me the achey feeling so I backed off back down to 3” hg, because I didn’t know if anyone considered that to be in the pain zone or not. I have stayed at 3” hg for a good two weeks now because I frankly didn’t know what else to think for sure.

This last week, the lower 3” hg pressure has been stretching it out to 6.375 length, and the last two nights it was hitting 6.5 again even at that lower pressure. So I am watching carefully, and I’m seeing it get bigger! :cutlass:

Thanks guys for the clarification. I know it might seem silly or annoying to you but it’s important to understand things the right way I think. I’ve seen people trip over words in the past, and it just isn’t necessary if you take a little time to make sure that what you think it means, is the same thing as what I think it means! Good communication is important. Now I know. And I know that I know.

“I know that you know. And you know that I know. We know that King Henry knows that we know, and Henry knows that we know that he knows. We know what King Henry knows, and he knows it. We are a VERY knowledgeable family… aren’t we.” -Katharine Hepburn in the movie “The Lion in Winter”

:) :) :)

I’m sure it’s been said elsewhere, but it’s worth clarifying the idea in a single thread:

Imho having a strong erection in the tube, or at least venous constriction is a critical part of pumping for growth. There are not that many people who report good permanent gains from pumping, but those that do seem to have done it for years. I believe this is not just the fact that they’ve done it for so long, but because they enjoy it. By enjoy it I mean they do it for pleasure and have an erection. This is pure speculation, but it stacks up to me. Imagine trying to stretch your dick by only pulling on the skin. That effectively is what a vacuum tube would do, and why edema ensues. Blood would fill whatever size vessel the vaccum creates, but it wouldn’t create a significant outward pressure. If you have an erection and a vaccum, then the blood pressure that would inflate the tunica is assisted by that slight help of a vacuum. Although it is only slight, it is over normal so adaptation would tend to occur.

Using a condom would complicate the formula somewhat, but if done correctly I think it would also help in getting higher useful vacuum levels while limiting edema. If you know for example that 4hg is fine, and 5 creates edema, then you could condom pump and find that say 6hg creates edema where 5hg doesn’t. It would of course require some extra Hg just to overcome the elastic properties of the condom, so in this case a Hg is not a Hg (if that makes any sense). Perhaps attaching a condom on it’s own to a pump and seeing what Hg it takes to inflate it to a given size might be an indication of how much it affects the readings, though I haven’t tried it.

I find it very difficult to maintain an unassisted proper erection in a vacuum, but when I’ve done it, the sensation and intensity achieved is far better whilst requiring much less Hg than a flaccid inflation.

Shiver said:

“I find it very difficult to maintain an unassisted proper erection in a vacuum, but when I’ve done it, the sensation and intensity achieved is far better whilst requiring much less Hg than a flaccid inflation.”

I agree as this is/has been my experience. One of the most elusive factors in PE is, in my opinion, the vagaries of fluctuating Testosterone (T), that, along with adequate NO modulates erections. That is why I have tried to get a direct measurement via blood/saliva testing to determine free, circulating T. Stress is a T killer and will frustrate the hell out of PEing whether the stress is psychological or physiological, or both. Having adequate free T sets the stage for gains, in my opinion. Without it, you are fighting an uphill battle, and, if you overtrain, your libido suffers (lower T) and that is counterproductive, too.

One of the indirect measures of adequate T would be one’s ability to maintain a top erection while in the tube. If you cannot maintain wood in the tube then either take time off and rest, fortify with the proper supplements, and/or do the exercises necessary to stimulate growth hormone and T production like lifting weights, rowing, doing squats, or power walking . . . whatever. Yes, morning wood is an indicator but if you can’t get it up and stay hard while in the tube then something is amiss (JMHO) and you need rest - that is, “Less” really is “More”.

A second observation I have made is that gains are a product of total, sustained stimulation to one’s unit. By that I mean that wearing a Homedic wrist strap while on vacation played just as big a part in my gains (by keeping my unit stimulated) as did the pumping and stretching routines before and up to going on the vacation. Yes, I was on vacation but I used the strap to “remind” my unit to at least pay attention during the time off and to not go completely to sleep. However, If I cannot keep a pleasant “fluffed state” while wearing the strap (and I just don’t feel interested or I’m tired) I might as well remove the strap and keep it off and rest until my T has sufficiently recovered.

What I wish I had is a meter like the diabetics use to measure blood sugar at will . . . instead, this would be a “Peter-Meter” that would measure free circulating T. If we all knew our baseline T all of the time, I think we could eliminate a major source of variability in our approach to PE.

Just a Thought.

Great Thread Sparkyx,

MrTiPS

Great, great…now we are getting good input here.

I want to comment on your comments in light of what I am finding.

Shiver;
“Imho having a strong erection in the tube, or at least venous constriction is a critical part of pumping for growth.”

Excellent observation, one that I complete concur with. This would fall into the category of knowing HOW to use a particular technique.

The critical part to make that particular technique PRODUCTIVE, that is to make gains…is to know HOW to apply the technique properly, then WHEN AND HOW MUCH! This is where physiologic indicators must be known, or you are blindly flailing around.

I just read a post by Dino, who has gotten some great gains, and he was talking about being careful with clamping because it could interfere with the quality of his erections.

PHYSIOLOGIC INDICATORS!!!!!!!! Here is a guy that is using PI (physiologic indicators, I’m tired of spelling it!)to help him know when to back off! And he has made excellent gains! Coincidence?

Shiver, you also mention that guys that have made good progress pumping also tend to enjoy it and get great erections…PI?

MrTips…you talk about a pleasant “fluffed state” PI again?

I read one guy who made excellent gains with 10 minutes of jelquing in the shower before work…but the interesting thing was he mentioned that he would stay pumped most of the day…large flaccid hang, PI?

So what I am seeing and saying, is we need to divide this thing into two major categories

1) Proper application of method of force;
Each method will have a proper application and general range of force. For example, pumping. Proper application would include that you must maintain a fairly hard erection or it becomes much less effective. Ranges would be 2-5 in hg for most people. Pain being a major PI to avoid.
2) Physiologic guidelines ( these will indicate whether you are using too much, too little, just right)
Lets use pumping again.
PI of proper application of methodology would be;
a ability to maintain hard erection in tube b increased nite and morning wood c increased flaccid hang during the day d increased quality of erection during sex e slow but steady increase of size
PI indicators of overdoing the pumping forces;
b difficulty maintaining erection in tube b decreased nite and morning wood c decreased flaccid hang during day. d decreased quality of erection during sex e diminishing or static size gains

You see? Those that have made good gains either have learned to pay attention to the PI, at least one or two of them, or just lucked out with their workout. The lucky ones were usually highly limited by time, so had to keep the PE to a minimum.

There are indicators and contra indicators for each technique, for example, if for some reason you cannot keep an erection in the tube for pumping, then jelquing would probably be a better exercise for you.

Proper usage and application would be the natural conclusions once we spell out all the different proper applications for the different techniques and PI’s.

More later!

Sparkyx

Another observation.

This is a trap that got me!

We tend to get excited when guys report that after their workout, they were HUGE! Pumping, clamping, extreme ulis etc.

Man, when I read those I just want to go right out and try it! Here’s the trap…the bigger you are after the workout…the greater the chance of having overstressed the tissues and caused or in the process of causing a reactive contraction!

Ain’t that a bitch!

To take a vet like Avocet, he is saying that you get more progress with low vacuum forces like 2-3 in hg! What?
How the hell does that make any sense, I can obviously see that at 7 in hg, I get much bigger by the time I’m done!

Well the answer is proper stimulation vs over stressing the tissue. At 3 in hg for a total of 15 minutes, I have STIMULATED growth or maybe just produced a mild stretch, without causing a reactive contraction due to tissue trauma!

How can you know….? PI’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should know, how many times have I overdone it…got a great size by the time my session was over, only to find decreased wood, lack of progress, decreased erectile quality during sex etc.

I was reading another great gainer last nite, and he was talking about a “nuclear” hard on every nite when he was sleeping….is it a surprise that he also makes great gains? Not to me…anymore!

So most of us that have been doing this for a while, have some real good understanding of proper application, we just need to now add a real disciplined eye to the PI’s.

If you suspect you are WAY into the over-trained zone… no morning wood, poor erection quality, etc, take a week off or until it begins to return. Or maybe ,do some easy daily jelques for a few minutes a day, or pump at 2 in hg for 5 minutes a day, until the PI’s indicate you are recovered.

Once recovered, you can restart your program, but cut it back to a reasonable minimum…the CLOSELY watch your PI’s! I now think one of the most sensitive other than nite and morning wood is SIZE!

If you followed this thread you read that I lost 1/2 friggin inch almost overnite from one real fun day of overdoing it with clamped pumping (felt and looked a little too damn good!).

So, start to read all the reports people give of either great progress or lack of it with PI’s in mind, and you will find your will be seeing a real pattern in what previously seemed like a mysterious situation.

When you do, get back to this thread and help me build on this concept. Please.

Thanks,
Sparkyx

Electron’

I almost forgot to comment on your post.

When you get your longest measurement under less vacuum force, it is the BEST indicator of real growth.

Keep up with carefully watching your PI’s, especially length in tube at a standard vacuum.

I believe that if you stay in the zone, you can see slow steady progress, almost daily…certainly weekly.

Watch the morning and evening wood closely, and it will confirm it you are using the right forces.

Congrats on the gains!

Sparkyx

Elecron,

One more thing, you might want to try using a condom to minimize that beginning donut.

It sounds like you have the vacuum force right, but I think edema should be avoided if possible.

A condom will solve that, and from my experience, it actually seems to improve the productive response.

Give it a try for a week and let us know.

Sparkyx

MrTips,

I re-read your post. I think you are dialed into your PI’s there…excellent.

I also now agree that daily mild stimulation is probably far more productive than larger forces infrequently applied.

Thats why it is good to have several different methods of applying PRODUCTIVE forces.

For example, lets say you can’t really sustain an erection in tube because of a tough day, not due to having stressed your unit with overtraining. It maybe important to stimulate your unit that day to sustain optimum growth.

How could you tell the difference between stress and unit abuse?

If you have been using the same forces for a while and it has been productive, but had a day from hell, and now Mr Johnson won’t co-operate…answer is obvious.

So what do you do? Maybe some moderate jelquing or light stretching. I find I can jelque effectively when pumping is just not going to happen!

There are all kinds of ways to get results with this stuff once we understand the principle behind it, proper application of forces, and Physiologic Indicators!

Sparkyx

I agree with what the other guys have suggested for the doughnut. Try condom pumping, using a snug fitting condom, and see if that doesn’t resolve the beginning doughnut formation. Some guys like doughnuts. [Cops love ‘em.] I don’t like anything that changes my basic contures. The problem with doughnuts (if you consider them a problem) is that the more frequently they occur, the weaker the tissue in that area becomes making future doughnuts more likely.

The twangs and tingles are happening because, new to pumping, you are getting now more blood flow through your penis than you were previously. This a good thing.

Thanks for the ideas everyone. I like the idea of doing the least possible that is going to produce real gains. So far I have been doing a daily 20 min stretching/jelqing routine with perhaps 5hrs a week hanging 6lbs and try to use an ADS (golf weight type) for maybe 15 hours a week. After ten months I can measure steady progress. Allowing a margin of error of +/- 0.1” I can plot my progress as perfect straight lines. The gradient or rate of increase for length is 0.5”pa and for the girth it is 0.3”pa. Although I can be confident that I am making real progress in the long term I think it would take six month before I could be sure of any deviation from this trend even if it started to grow at more than twice this long term trend!

What I really mean is that to experiment as to the effect of varying my routine will take me years! I will stick to my present routines as long as my measurements continue to hit the long term gain lines. But because the gains per month (approx. 4 hundredths of an inch) are small in relation to the precision of the measuring (+/- 10 hundredths) then it takes months to be sure of measuring anything real.

When I do eventually have to try new techniques I think the good ideas here will help me avoid any deadends which could take months for me to discover for myself. It’s great that there are so many others here to learn from their experience. In another year or two I hope to share any useful experience I may have gained in this crazy world of dick cultivating.