When I have made great gains, I...

Lets try this from the opposite approach than we usually take.

Mostly we say, so much time, or wt, or vacuum pressure or repetitions, etc.

The problem with that is that it doesn’t take into account that people respond differently. Hence, we say you have to experiment and find what works for you.

OK, true enough. But what I have noticed is lately, I have been experimenting with some different combinations of techniques and I have gained about 1/4 in in a couple weeks.

What I noticed though, is that after the sessions that have produced the best results, that I see and feel the same thing.

I noticed my cock gets noticeably thicker, reddish and longer, and the sessions are pleasant not any real discomfort.

Other times when I haven’t made as much progress, I had been getting much less expansion during my exercises.

So here is what I am proposing;

Lets compile a list of observations you have made when you are in a period of good progress. Lets see if we can draw up a physiologic map to guide us through EFFECTIVE PE.

For example, lets just say that when I pump and clamp at the same time, and have gotten some great results, I have noticed that my cock inflates fairly quickly, feels great doing it, and get minimum shrinkage during the rest of the day. Further, I notice increased nocturnal erections. During this time I notice a slow but steady increase of the size of my cock while in the tube, almost daily…certainly weekly.

Get the idea? Don’t post your speculations, or new routines…just what you have seen or felt when you are in a good growth phase.

If this has any merit, we should be able to more accurately tell when we have jelqued or pumped or hung properly, and hopefully increase our effectiveness at this.

Hopefully we can develope some dependable guidelines that could clue you in as to whether you are wasting time, or on to something effective for you.

It would also be VERY helpful to include the signs you have noticed when you are getting it wrong, and have either not made any progress or have lost size.

Between knowing what a good sessions looks and feels like, and sure signs you are getting it wrong, I think we can all cut down the time it takes to zero in on the zone and stay in it longer.

Thanks,
Sparkyx

(1) Try to reproduce that gain on subsequent measuring attempts.

(2) When the gain is confirmed, I review the workouts (which I always record) leading up to the gain - or, at least, when I think the workouts responsible for the recent gain kicked in.

(3) Keep going!

(4) When a stubbor plateau announces its presence, I’ll take a layoff.

I have noticed if my workout is less than 15 minutes my penis is fatter and longer afterwards than if I do a 30 min set. Maybe it gets tired, I don’t really know. I have gone to shorter more frequent routines anyway.

It’s hard to post observations without posting speculations. I think I know exactly what is causing it, but it is a speculation at this point, so I’m reluctant to post it anyway.

I’ve noticed that when tissue is stretchy then gains are available, and when they’re stiff then we’re wasting our time (or even hurting gains potential). The only thing I’ve found so far that influences it is that PE intensity (negatively) influences it and time off (positively) influences it.

My current (variable) outlook is:

#1. Do no harm
#2. Recovery

That probably means doing about 10% of what is accepted wisdom. The posts Wad made about his friend making good gains without much effort never really left my consciousness when looking at this subject.

Thanks for the posts guys.

I would like to see more gainers kick in with their observations as to what are the indicators of “doing it right”.

I really believe that this is the way to go for increased effectiveness.

Shiver,

I agree. I have been doing moderate jelquing first thing in the morning when I first wake up while I am still warm and “elastic”.

Plus, 2-3 times a week pumping while clamped, amazing stuff.

When I went to pump the other day, I saw by the calibration on my pump that I had put on over a 1/4 inch in about 3 weeks!

I couldn’t believe it!

As a matter of fact, I got so enthusiastic that I did ALOT of it that day. Results, lost most of those gains by the next day.

OK, no way you say. Well, what I think is the excessive clamping and pumping resulted in some reactive shrinkage due to the trauma. So I layed off today and I had a partial erection or really long flaccid length all day.

I know I didn’t lose it, it just contracted due to the over “abuse” that one day.

I really think that the stretching but not inflaming that comes with moderate, pleasant PE is the real key.

Veteran pumpers like Avocet have been finding the same thing. Moderate to low pressure, for fairly short periods seem to result in the best growth.

You really don’t see the expansion that day, but slow and steady you grow.

I think if you up the vacuum, you can really expand it that day, but then you get the reactive shrinkage due to the minor trauma to the tissue.

I wish more of the gainers would give us their observations on this, because I think this is the way to start looking at it to arrive at guideposts that will be universally useful.

Sparkyx

Contraction is one of the things tissue does in response to an injury. Skipping the details, it basically makes it easier to bridge the void and shore everything up before a more permanent repair can be made.

Conventional wisdom is to stretch to break tissues down and keep it stretched while the voids are filled. I say don’t injure it in the first place, but make it stretchable to get the best length possible and let the body rebuild in that state with normal cell turnover.

Some may notice that their penis is more stretchy in the morning than at night, or that it is more stretchy when not PEing. We should learn from that because something is happening that we’re not capitalising on.

I agree. There probably several mechanisms of growth. However, the problem with the damage route is I believe it is self limiting and then you need strategic deconditioning. I also suspect it limits total growth potential.

I had developed a strength gaining program where I had you do good warm up, then one set (6 rep range) to failure. I then had you come back in 2 days and lift your warm-up wt. If the wt felt much lighter than before then repeat the workout. If it felt heavy, wait 2 more days then repeat the warm up wt test. You would repeat this to find when you were the strongest after your workout (for me 6 days).

With this approach, it allowed you to find how long it takes for YOU to recover. Not some recommendation that works for genetically gifted or chemically enhanced athlete to recover.

Once you found your optimum recovery time, then it would work real well, with gains every workout, until your strength gains reached the point that those number of days were no longer enough. You would then add one or two recovery days and once again see if your gains returned to their expected levels.

This worked very well.

This reason I bring this up, is I think that something similar would work well for PE.

First we need to establish reliable road signs of progress, or effective PEing. Such as slight increase of size after the workout, pleasant tingling and redness….etc.

Also indications of too much or too little.

Next, pick an exercise of your choice, eg pumping.

Now, start with a low minimum of force and duration. For example, 5 minutes at 3 in hg. Do this for one week, daily and observe. You could observe, size in tube, increase frequency and quality of erections,etc.

Next increase either the time of the set or the number of sets. Repeat the one week trial and observation.

At some point you will find diminishing returns. Go back to the most productive routine.

After that you could introduce one additional technique at a time for a week and observe the indications of progress.

Using this approach should allow you to eliminate the variables that makes this such a hit or miss routine.

One of the real problems here (my opinion) is one, beginners tend to start with way too much, and get further lost from there. Many times its the beginners that do a minimum routine, that make great gains.

Two, some of this stuff feels a little too damn good, leading to doing way more than is productive. This then leads many pe’ers to start adding more in attempt to make progress.

How many times have we heard of guys making no progress, laying off for a few weeks and finding that they grew during the layoff? Plenty!

In the gym, I was up to one handed dumbbell hammer curls with 110 lb dumbbells and one handed seated cable row with 260 lbs for reps! Because I am naturally strong? Hell no! For years I hardly made any progress, until I figured out, that for the intensity I work out with, I was doing way too much.

I believe we can apply that type of thought process here.

Once again I appeal to the veteran gainers to make their contribution here as to what they see when they are “in the zone”, I really think we can move this art/science forward with this approach.

Thanks,
Sparkyx

Happy to. But tomorrow? Kind of jammed today.

Thanks for the heads-up, sparky.

Okay, here’s a question/observation abvout pumping. I am in week three, using pumping 101. Before this I played a little with my pump and found some things out. I first tried 5” hg, and found it hurt a little, it felt a little like there was just this ‘tearing feeling’ lengthwise, like a piece of paper being stretched that was about ready to tear, if that makes any sense. Within a minute I turned it down, *ow*! Since then I have varied the vacuum between 3” and 4½” hg to see what differences I could notice.

My next observation was last week. It’s more subtle than ‘pain’. Maybe it’s more like ‘the beginnings of pain’, or ‘just a good workout’. I’ll try to describe it here, and maybe you can relate to this.

If I pump at around 4” hg, after about ten minutes I notice that the penis begins to get a little bit of an ‘achey feeling’ to it. There are only a couple of ways I can describe it differently that people might identify with. One is if you have ever done edging, or perhaps if you have ever teased yourself (or been teased) with a raging hard-on and not allowed to come for like an hour, you get this almost like an “aching” feeling because your unit has been ‘ready to go’ and not allowed to! :) The other way to describe it would be to say that when you are done with your session, it has an achey feeling, like going to the gym and having a good workout. It just has that “good ache” feeling to it, there’s no other way I can think of to describe it so I hope you can identify with that. It doesn’t occur down in the ligs or anywhere, but the whole penis feels like it has had ‘a good workout.’ a slightly ‘sore’ feeling might describe it for some but I like ‘ache’ better, it just makes more sense to me I guess. ‘Almost sore’… but not quite, maybe? If I stay at 3” hg this doesn’t happen, it ‘starts’ at about 3½ hg, and is definitely there at 4” hg.

So the question is, is this in the ‘pain’ zone that you want to avoid, is it a good workout, or what? I could experiment around with 3” hg for a few weeks, then experiment around at 4” hg for a few weeks, but maybe someone else has an insight into this. ‘Obvious pain’ and obvious ‘non pain’ is one thing, but I am discovering that there are these subtle little nuances in-between the two… so where do you ‘draw the line’ between the two?

Does this also change or ‘go up’ when you get conditioned more? For example, could I expect a day to come when 4” hg doesn’t cause an ache anymore, and this is how you determine when to turn up the vacuum pressure because you can handle more now?

thanks

Come to think of it, there’s something else I have noticed, so I should stick it in with this also. Back when I was using 3½ or 4” hg, it seems like I was getting more morning wood. Now I have been staying at 3” hg for a week or more, and I haven’t noticed the morning wood anymore… hmm. Is that telling me something?

Electron,

This is the area of knowledge I want to improve. I think feeling is one of the indicators, but it is subtle.

I believe “pleasant” is a good rule of thumb, but I want more feedback from veteran gainers before I make that one official. ( read Shivers posts in this thread about damage vs stretching)

However, a proven reliable one is results…eg. increased frequency and quality of erections. (Analogous to getting stronger in the gym)

Are you getting more or less morning and evening wood? If you are getting less, its a SURE sign you are overdoing it.

If you are over doing it, I would suggest backing the vacuum down until it is a definite pleasant sensation.

I find if I get it right, I will get an amazing erection, a normal good hard erection, that is then amplified by the vacuum.

If I use too much vacuum, I never really get that internally driven pressure increase.

The way to check is to feel the part of your penis that isn’t in the tube, it should be hard. If it isn’t, you really are throwing away 80% of the potential benefit.

Remember that it is the net expansion force that causes the change. I should go dig up my thread on this so I don’t have to keep running through this. Anyway, here it is short and dirty.

Normally in a flaccid penis the outside pressure (inward) is in balance with the internal pressure (outward). When you get an erection, the internal outward force increases and causes the penis to swell until the tissue tension (inward) balances the outward force from blood, and that is your max erection.

To increase that size, you either increase the internal force (kagels, jelquing,clamping, etc) or DECREASE the outside (inward) pressure. (This is can only be done with pumping!)

However, if you don’t get a good erection when pumping, you vastly decrease the net expansive forces. I really think that increasing the vacuum is not a overall effective method to make up for the lack of internal pressures (lack of erection).

This is the one major drawback for a lot of us in pumping, it can be difficult to maintain that erection while in the tube.

This is why I am experimenting with pumping while clamped. It allows me to greatly increase the net expansive forces without increasing the vacuum force. (so far, very impressed with it!)

So in conclusion, go with pleasant (indicator of stretch with minimum damage), and increase or decrease the number of short sets based on the quality of nightly and morning wood.

Sparkyx

Electron,

You posted again before I finished. YES!!!! Morning wood is telling you something!

However in your case, MORE vacuum actually did better for you. I’ m positive if you upped it more, you would find morning wood would start to decrease again. This is the magic of using PHYSIOLOGIC RESPONSE as a way of finding the right amount for YOU!

This is why I am excited by the physiologic response as an indicator of how much is productive.

If I was to tell you such and such sets and forces, I can only give you ranges that have been effective.

If I tell you to start at a resonable force and change according to the physiologic response (eg moring wood) I truly think we can help you dial in what is most effective for you now, and help you shift when needed, acurately!

Sparkyx

I think this may be the “Unified Theory of PE” that I have been looking for!

It can be applied whether you jelque, clamp, hang, pump or just tie it to your SUV bumper and tell your gal to floor it!

Sparkyx

I’m trying to error on the side of underdoing it rather than overdoing it, and work up that way. Newbie enthusuasm just got me injured and set me back a month so I don’t want to do that again. I was gonna stretch and jelq the hell out of it and make me some microtears! I was gonna gain an inch the first month! Haha yeah right, I got temporary numbness instead. So much for that idea.

I thought that one way of dialing in on things might be by better describing the feelings you get (not emotional feelings but the physical feelings) that one experiences during or after a session, then noting the results. So far it has met with mixed results, guys think that admitting they have feelings seems to still be a stigma I guess, but sometimes I tend to forget that. I was the same way for 30 years, it’s how we are taught to be in our culture. If I’m not in abject pain or something I just cannot admit that I’m ‘having a feeling’ or something, so you just blot it out and tell yourself it isn’t so. The typical “male thing” in our culture. If I’m a male and I admit to you that I have feelings, then I’m not really ‘a man’ anymore, I’m not ‘macho” anymore, or whatever _________ (fill in the blank with your own interpretation of this.) I know that’s all bullshit, now, but it takes two people (or more) to have a conversation, I can’t do it all alone. Blotting out my feelings now just seems inadequate or something, (and I feel inadequate in describing things myself still, sometimes), but it only gets better with practice and I try to come up with descriptions in a way that people might have experienced thenselves and can relate to, and try to ‘connect’ with them that way, when describing these little differences. So far, nobody has really stepped up and said “yes, I can identify with that! Yes, I know exactly what you’re talking about there” so I haven’t had any great epiphanies or anything in that area yet. Oh well. Maybe it can tell us something, so why not. I think you are right, maybe I should bump the vacuum pressure back up a little, to where I get that little ‘ache’ or ‘good workout feeling’ again and try that for a while. I keep a daily log in a little Excel spreadsheet, looks like I better add some columns to it to account for some things I wasn’t looking at before.

By the same token, I think there’s a simplicity to it maybe that doesn’t need to be over-analyzed in order to get results. Look at jelquing, for example. If it has been used in the middle east and passed down for centuries with good results, there must have been a simple way of passing it down, or it wouldn’t have lasted down through history. It just wouldn’t. It would have been lost in time, because they didn’t have spreadsheets and computers, they didn’t have scientific instruments, they didn’t have time to ‘analyze it to death.’ So it would have been passed on by simple descriptions probably… this feeling is ‘too much’ and that feeling is ‘too little’ and the other feeling is ‘just right.’ There might also have been some dietary or nutritional things that help it, there might have been some health and exercise things that help it, but that’s about it. It wouldn’t have been terribly complicated, or it simply wouldn’t have lasted throughout the centuries. That’s what makes sense to me, anyway. There’s a ‘zone’ in there somewhere that’s optimal… but you have to be able to describe it somehow, in a way that others can relate to, or nobody else will understand what you are talking about.

There is also room for the scientific stuff, I like looking at vitamin C for example, shiver’s ideas on enzymes makes sense as do many other peoples ideas, but for me right now I’m just trying to ‘get my footing’ with the basic stuff and get that tuned in correctly.

I think this will be a good thread! Results is what it’s all about, so if describing sunspots will do it, or describing the bumps on the wall will do it, or describing the weird little “feelings” I get (that I never paid attention to before) will do it, hey why not ‘tune into it’ and give it a try. If paying attention to that little ‘ache’ feeling gives me the result of more morning wood, then I have discovered a piece of truth, for me at least, that works. When others verify it, that’s a real good feeling, for all of us not just me. It makes sense to me, anyway. Maybe it will make sense to someone else, too. C’mon everyone, start posting!

Sparky-

I can really only speak to lig work via hanging, as that is where I have focused most of my energies. It reflects much of the more conventional thinking (if any PE can truly be considered ‘conventional’) that some of the guys here have reiterated, and falls neatly in line with the standard thinking on lig stretching as a route to length gains:

Use longterm static tension/stress on the ligs to break down each successive limiting factor, expressing more of the inner penis, until there are no more gains to be had.

Whether my tunica itself has indeed ‘lengthened’ via this approach is not something I can say with any certainty, but because BTC hanging is almost solely where I have placed my efforts, and I have achieved lasting results, it has been proven - at least to myself - that it works in providing both flaccid and erect length gains.

About healing under deconditioning and its effect on permanence:
I don’t think the ligs, once thoroughly broken down, ever return or “contract” back to their original length - that is, not if you have genuinely brought them to a new place.

It is a fact that surgical cutting of the ligs cannot be considered complete and successful unless post operative hanging is used to ensure the ligs do not mend at their original (shorter) length.
Therefore, with straight hanging as we employ it, deconditioning breaks should not be entered into until the broken down ligs have been cemented in place - in effect, healed under mild stress.