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Wow! That is a very interesting read. Alot of the information in your theory really relates to a lot of different effects I have had with pe exercises. Only now I know whats is being worked(smooth muscle/tunica).
Also, very well written. It’s great how you have made a subject so complex and complicated sound so simple.
Thanks for all your hard work, and I am going to be putting it to test, as it as made a lot of sense to me.
If this theory is true, once an equilibrium is found between the tunica and smooth muscle, the key is finding that sweet spot ratio of girth and length exercises- which would change from guy to guy.
>Mem, No, we are not talking about the muscle around the tunica. We are talking about the smooth muscle in the corpus cavernosa.<
OK, so we are talking about the same thing. Cool.
From the look of your quotes (I’ve scanned all the linked sourcces), you have the path from low smooth muscle to mechanical ED (veno occlusive dysfunction) but you haven’t quoted anything that suggests that high smooth muscle equates with enlargement or indeed better quality erections. There must come a point where the veins are successfully closed down (by the pressure of blood) as much as is required, i.e. a normal erection, beyond that point nothing you’ve posted suggests that more smooth muscle helps in any way. That being the case it must be reasonable to assume that this is of interest to anyone suffering from ED (and I find it interesting too) but is not directly or indirectly relevant to PE in anyone not suffering from ED.
Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.
First, I want to thank you, Remek and Iguana, for putting forth a great effort in attempting to expand our understanding of expanding our penises. You’ve obviously done a great deal of work here, and I am very appreciative.
My comments so far:
1. I suggest we call this "TGC Hypothesis" rather than "TGC Theory" to reflect the provisional nature of the ideas presented.
2. "The tunica is a strong tendon-like tissue that surrounds all three corpus chambers." Are you sure about that? I thought the tunica just surrounded the two CCs, with the weaker Buck’s Fascia wrapped around the whole deal. Cite.
3. "Research seems to indicate that, oddly enough, not every man has the same amount of layers of tunica. Most men have two layers, but some men only have one layer in their penis. Others have as much as three layers." Thickness and composition also vary. Cite .
4. First: "Just as your biceps and triceps play a critical role in the size and strength of your arms, the smooth muscle in your penis plays a critical role in the strength and size of your erections." Then later: "Your erections are largely caused by complete relaxation of the smooth muscle in your penis."
This statement does not really follow from the one before it, since one flexes the bicep to make it bigger but relaxes the penile smooth muscle to make the penis erect. Relaxation of the smooth muscle allows the tunica to be filled like your previously described bicycle tire.
5. "So, when a penis is flaccid, the smooth muscle is contracted. When the penis is erect, the smooth muscle is completely relaxed and pushing on the tunica." Is the smooth muscle what’s pressing on the tunica? Isn’t it the insides of the CCs, including all the contents, that are doing the pressing?
6. "More smooth muscle = Harder erections." Are you sure about this. The references you cite seem to say something different, that less smooth muscle is associated with weaker erections. There, some disease or degenerative process may be affecting the penis as a whole. Weaker erections are one symptom. Reduced smooth muscle may be another. I’m not sure causality is shown. Even if it is, are you sure it works both ways? Does more smooth muscle, in an otherwise healthy penis, result in stronger erections?
7. "It appears that when you don't have enough smooth muscle, or possibly when the smooth muscle is too "fatigued" to relax all the way, you aren't going to get a hard erection." I can understand how a muscle can be too fatigued to contract, but how can it be too fatigued to relax?
8. "Possible Problem 2: The smooth muscle is completely relaxed, but the tunica is stretched beyond the smooth muscles "reach." This essentially creates a "gap" between the smooth muscle and the tunica, making it hard to shut off the veins." Why blame the smooth muscle? Why not look at the sinusoids themselves? Perhaps they’re losing collagen. Also, could the problem be related to muscle stiffness rather than volume? Perhaps those muscles just need to be stretched?
9. "(the tunica is enlarged with mainly length-type exercises and the smooth muscle with girth-type exercises, although a few are interchangable.)" I disagree with this. The tunica’s job is to contain both the length and the girth of the penis to allow pressure to build. It applies equally to both. Similarly, if the "internals" (I’m avoiding the term, "smooth muscle" for the moment) aren’t sufficiently extendable lengthwise, erection length may be limited short of the outer limit imposed by the tunica.
10. "Why do a few guys have a longer BPEL than BPFSL?" I don’t see how your hypothesis address this.
Generally, I like the idea of thinking of the penis as more than just an envelope to be filled with pressurized blood. It has an internal structure, some of which is smooth muscle that is essential for proper erections. I worry, however, that your hypothesis may place too much emphasis on the smooth muscle itself without considering all the other structure, especially the sinusoids and trabeculae. Those consist of collagen and elastin and can benefit from stretching and expansion exercises.
As the penis grows through PE, it makes sense that the amount of smooth muscle should be increased roughly proportionally. Simply stretching or hanging may not be enough, since the new volume needs to be filled with healthy tissue with the right balance of contents.
I didn’t see you spefically mention jelqing, but I think jelqing is probably the single best PE exercise for enlarging smooth muscle as well as stretching and expanding the other internal structures. I’ve read abstracts of studies (can’t look now) that say that increased blood flow causes prolifeation of smooth muscle in arteries. Jelqing moves blood and thus promotes blood flow. Increasing blood pressure in the penis may help as well. I’ve read that arterial hypertrophy/hyperplasia is a common response to high blood pressure.
By moving blood through the penis and temporarily increasing blood pressure within the penis, the internal tissues, which either are or resemble blood vessels, may be induced to grow through the same processes that affect blood vessels throughout the body. Also, once something starts growing (like sinusoids or blood vessels) within the penis, the growth factors may "spill over" and affect the tunica, which than might grow right along with the internal structures.
Enter your measurements in the PE Database.
Rem/Iguana: I obviously posted my comments above before reading the comments of others and your replies. Sorry about that. I think all the comments still apply, though.
Enter your measurements in the PE Database.
I realise my last post isn’t clear, when I wrote “you have the path from low smooth muscle to mechanical ED” I didn’t mean to suggest that you have a causal link, rather that as Modesto suggests, you have a sometime symptom of ED.
Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.
I’ve been lacking motivation lately for any P.E. training but I had been planning on going for girth. Back when I was doing P.E. the extender and other length exercises were giving very little gains even though I did it diligently.
I wanted to start again with girth work and this theory has further motivated me. So keep up the good work guys :)
Short-Term Goal: 10.25" BPEL
"Take it Slow and Watch it Grow"
Long-Term Goal: To Be Decided
From the look of your quotes (I’ve scanned all the linked sourcces), you have the path from low smooth muscle to mechanical ED (veno occlusive dysfunction) but you haven't quoted anything that suggests that high smooth muscle equates with enlargement
When you see a study that quotes where anything but surgery equates with enlargement, let me know!
… or indeed better quality erections.
I believe all of the studies we have quoted in Part 1 suggest this.
Here’s one that we paraphrased in Part 1, about the older men having less smooth muscle. Here’s the direct quote:
Using computerized image analysis, the percentage of smooth muscle cells was measured in patients of different ages with normal erections. At younger than 40 y, the percentage was 46%, between 41 and 60 y it was 40%, and at older than 60 y it was 35%; this decrease in smooth muscle content may be responsible for the decline in erection in older men.
Taken from: Smooth muscle pathology and erectile dysfunction
International Journal of Impotence Research (2002) Vol. 14, Suppl 1, S17–S21
E Wespes1*
Granted, it says “may,” but all the literature I have read suggests that lower smooth muscle percentage equates to weaker erections; and higher smooth muscle percentage equates to stronger erections.
There must come a point where the veins are successfully closed down (by the pressure of blood) as much as is required, i.e. a normal erection, beyond that point nothing you’ve posted suggests that more smooth muscle helps in any way.
Exactly. This is the point of the theory, and where we think PEers often run into trouble: Sometimes they’re exercising their smooth muscle when it’s already at it’s “limit.” This isn’t going to help. It’s only going to result in more hardness (which many men have experienced when they plateau, including myself). Instead, if you’re a man with rock-solid erections and a not a large “gap” in your BPFSL/BPEL, you’ll probably want to work out length (i.e. tunica) or you’re not going to gain. But again, this is only a theory. The real test will come in real-world application.
TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?
"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson
I’ve been lacking motivation lately for any P.E. training but I had been planning on going for girth. Back when I was doing P.E. the extender and other length exercises were giving very little gains even though I did it diligently.I wanted to start again with girth work and this theory has further motivated me. So keep up the good work guys :)
Yoyototo: I sure do hope it helps! Guys like you — in which you were focusing on one area and weren’t gaining — is where I think this theory has the biggest potential.
I’m curious: When you were doing length exercises, what were your erections like? How about your BPFSL to BPEL ratio?
TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?
"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson
I didn’t see you spefically mention jelqing, but I think jelqing is probably the single best PE exercise for enlarging smooth muscle as well as stretching and expanding the other internal structures. I’ve read abstracts of studies (can’t look now) that say that increased blood flow causes prolifeation of smooth muscle in arteries. Jelqing moves blood and thus promotes blood flow. Increasing blood pressure in the penis may help as well. I’ve read that arterial hypertrophy/hyperplasia is a common response to high blood pressure.
By moving blood through the penis and temporarily increasing blood pressure within the penis, the internal tissues, which either are or resemble blood vessels, may be induced to grow through the same processes that affect blood vessels throughout the body. Also, once something starts growing (like sinusoids or blood vessels) within the penis, the growth factors may “spill over” and affect the tunica, which than might grow right along with the internal structures.
Here are some earlier posts on the same subject, some including references:
Enter your measurements in the PE Database.
First, I want to thank you, Remek and Iguana, for putting forth a great effort in attempting to expand our understanding of expanding our penises. You’ve obviously done a great deal of work here, and I am very appreciative.
Thanks MM. We truly hope this information benefits us all in some way.
My comments so far:1. I suggest we call this "TGC Hypothesis" rather than "TGC Theory" to reflect the provisional nature of the ideas presented.
Fair enough. I know there’s always the debate about theory vs hypothesis. In all actuality, hypothesis is the more correct term, we
just settled on theory for familiarity purposes.
2. "The tunica is a strong tendon-like tissue that surrounds all three corpus chambers." Are you sure about that? I thought the tunica just surrounded the two CCs, with the weaker Buck’s Fascia wrapped around the whole deal. Cite.
I believe you are correct on this. Buck’s Fasica does indeed envelope all 3 chambers but the tunica only surrounds the CC. Thanks for pointing this out.
3. "Research seems to indicate that, oddly enough, not every man has the same amount of layers of tunica. Most men have two layers, but some men only have one layer in their penis. Others have as much as three layers." Thickness and composition also vary. Cite .
Unfortunately, this link is a paid publication to which I can no longer get access. It has been referenced here on this site previously.
Here is a partial excerpt:
In all 28 cases, the TA of the CC consisted of collagen fibers impregnated with few elastic fibers. The collagen fibers were arranged in bundles in a wavy pattern. In 20 cadaveric specimens, the TA of the CC was formed of two layers: an inner circular and an outer longitudinal (Figure 1). In six of the 28 specimens, it consisted of three layers: an inner circular, intermediate longitudinal and outer circular (Figure 2). In the remaining two specimens, the TA was formed of a single longitudinal layer (Figure 3). At the junction of the CC with the corpus spongiosum (CS) in all the studied specimens, the TA of the CC consisted only of the circular layer. The TA of the CS consisted of only one layer with circularly oriented fibers; no longitudinal fibers were detected in any of the specimens examined.
4. First: "Just as your biceps and triceps play a critical role in the size and strength of your arms, the smooth muscle in your penis plays a critical role in the strength and size of your erections." Then later: "Your erections are largely caused by complete relaxation of the smooth muscle in your penis."
This statement does not really follow from the one before it, since one flexes the bicep to make it bigger but relaxes the penile smooth muscle to make the penis erect. Relaxation of the smooth muscle allows the tunica to be filled like your previously described bicycle tire.
I think remek’s analogy here is simply for illustrative purposes and are not to be interpreted as a comparable process.
5. "So, when a penis is flaccid, the smooth muscle is contracted. When the penis is erect, the smooth muscle is completely relaxed and pushing on the tunica." Is the smooth muscle what’s pressing on the tunica? Isn’t it the insides of the CCs, including all the contents, that are doing the pressing?
The sinusoid chambers are indeed where the pressure is originating. These chambers are surrounded with smooth muscle. It’s the smooth muscle that comes in contact with the tunica.
The CC is contained within a tough outer covering known as the tunica albuginea and consists of an interconnected network of sinusoidal spaces surrounded by the corpus cavernosum smooth muscle (CCSM) http://www.andr ologyjournal.or … l/24/6_suppl/S6
6. "More smooth muscle = Harder erections." Are you sure about this. The references you cite seem to say something different, that less smooth muscle is associated with weaker erections. There, some disease or degenerative process may be affecting the penis as a whole. Weaker erections are one symptom. Reduced smooth muscle may be another. I’m not sure causality is shown. Even if it is, are you sure it works both ways? Does more smooth muscle, in an otherwise healthy penis, result in stronger erections?
I have quoted and referenced the articles from which this information was taken and from everything I have read there is a direct correlation
between smooth muscle quality and quantity on erection strength.
Smooth muscle fiber has fundamental importance in erection. Alterations in its function or quantity may be associated with erectile dysfunction.
http://www.scie lo.br/pdf/spmj/ … n4/a05v1234.pdf
7. "It appears that when you don't have enough smooth muscle, or possibly when the smooth muscle is too "fatigued" to relax all the way, you aren't going to get a hard erection." I can understand how a muscle can be too fatigued to contract, but how can it be too fatigued to relax?
Maybe fatigued is not the right word. Stressed may be more appropriate. The effects of stress on the body are well documented.
Stress causes decrease in vascular relaxation linked with altered phosphorylation of heat shock proteinsIn the present study, stress impaired relaxation of aortic smooth muscle to two substances that activate cyclic nucleotide-dependent signaling pathways, forskolin, which activates adenylyl cyclase, and sodium nitroprusside, which activates guanylyl cyclase. This decreased ability of the vascular smooth muscle to relax, which could contribute to development of stress-induced hypertension,
Granted in this case it may be psychological or emotional stress but I recall reading an article that suggested physical stress may have the same effect on smooth muscle.
8. "Possible Problem 2: The smooth muscle is completely relaxed, but the tunica is stretched beyond the smooth muscles "reach." This essentially creates a "gap" between the smooth muscle and the tunica, making it hard to shut off the veins." Why blame the smooth muscle? Why not look at the sinusoids themselves? Perhaps they’re losing collagen. Also, could the problem be related to muscle stiffness rather than volume? Perhaps those muscles just need to be stretched?
Perhaps. But, the reason we point the finger at smooth muscle is it’s critical role in the erection process. Whatever is happening with diminished EQ related to PE is definitely training induced. I don’t see how PE could induce the loss of collagen in the sinusoids nor how this could be reversed by training strategy. It could certainly be possible. The body is a complex machine, but I think all the indications point to smooth muscle. In my case, shortly after I started working my smooth muscle my EQ improved. I recall one study stating that in one experiment in which vascular blood flow was altered the replication of smooth muscle cells started within 48 hours. Angiogenesis is one example of how restricted blood flow will produce spontaneous vascular growth.
9. "(the tunica is enlarged with mainly length-type exercises and the smooth muscle with girth-type exercises, although a few are interchangeable.)" I disagree with this. The tunica’s job is to contain both the length and the girth of the penis to allow pressure to build. It applies equally to both. Similarly,if the "internals" (I'm avoiding the term, "smooth muscle" for the moment) aren't sufficiently extendable lengthwise, erection length may be limited short of the outer limit imposed by the tunica.
This is exactly what we are saying! Being that the majority of "internals" is composed of smooth muscle and once again give it’s critical role in erections, the erection length may be limited short of the outer limit imposed by the tunica.
This should have probably read stretching type exercises instead of length-type. As stated earlier in the article, certain exercises lend themselves to targeting the tunica and certain exercises lend themselves to targeting the smooth muscle. Take hanging for instance, given the tunica moves freely over the internals of the penis, it’s likely it will absorb most of the stress from this exercise. Clamping on the other hand generates internal pressure which is absorbed first and mainly by the CC and CS. Yes, the tunica can very likely also be stressed in this situation and thus the comment about some exercises being interchangeable.
10. "Why do a few guys have a longer BPEL than BPFSL?" I don’t see how your hypothesis address this.
It doesn’t… we cut a lot of information out in the editing process. It was just one of the observed PE related phenomenon that got this discussion going. We should have probably omitted that statement.
Generally, I like the idea of thinking of the penis as more than just an envelope to be filled with pressurized blood. It has an internal structure, some of which is smooth muscle that is essential for proper erections. I worry, however, that your hypothesis may place too much emphasis on the smooth muscle itself without considering all the other structure, especially the sinusoids and trabeculae. Those consist of collagen and elastin and can benefit from stretching and expansion exercises.
I whole-heartedly agree. Actually, the sinusoids are composed of smooth muscle also. So, when we refer to smooth muscle we are including
them by implication.
Masson’s trichrome showed that the corpora cavernosa were arranged into trabeculae composed of collagen fibres intertwined with
smooth muscle, blood vessels and nerves, and separated by endothelial-lined cavernosal spaces (Fig. 1). There were similar amounts of
collagen and smooth muscle in the tissues, and there were no appreciable differences in collagen distribution and architecture.
As the penis grows through PE, it makes sense that the amount of smooth muscle should be increased roughly proportionally. Simply stretching or hanging may not be enough, since the new volume needs to be filled with healthy tissue with the right balance of contents.
I couldn’t agree more. As you correctly stated "Simply stretching or hanging may not be enough, since the since the new volume needs to be filled with healthy tissue with the right balance of contents." That’s what this whole hypothesis (notice I didn’t say theory :) ) is all about. Continually adjusting our routines to keep this balance.
I didn’t see you specifically mention jelqing, but I think jelqing is probably the single best PE exercise for enlarging smooth muscle as well as stretching and expanding the other internal structures. I’ve read abstracts of studies (can’t look now) that say that increased blood flow causes prolifeation of smooth muscle in arteries. Jelqing moves blood and thus promotes blood flow. Increasing blood pressure in the penis may help as well. I’ve read that arterial hypertrophy/hyperplasia is a common response to high blood pressure.
Absolutely! we stated that earlier in this post: Iguana - Focus Your PE and Gain! TGC Theory,
Notice how increased pressure and flow stimulates an increase in mass and vessel diameter. Isn’t this exactly what we are doing with jelqing, clamping and pumping, altering the blood flow and pressure? Notice how shear stress (stress parallel to the vessel) can increase vessel diameter.
By moving blood through the penis and temporarily increasing blood pressure within the penis, the internal tissues, which either are or resemble blood vessels, may be induced to grow through the same processes that affect blood vessels throughout the body. Also, once something starts growing (like sinusoids or blood vessels) within the penis, the growth factors may "spill over" and affect the tunica, which than might grow right along with the internal structures.
Very well could be! I think for the internal pressures from sinusoid/smooth muscle growth to be great enough to stretch the tunica it would require a long time and a lot of increased pressure. Not that it’s not possible,. I think our stretching the tunica is critical in accelerating this process.
Modesto, Thanks a ton for the comments and input. It’s good to have another experienced and knowledgeable mind on the matter!
You’re a definite asset to this site!
Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.
Louis Pasteur
remek,
>When you see a study that quotes where anything but surgery equates with enlargement, let me know!<
I get your problem here. Personally I think postulation is a good thing in certain circumstances but it needs to be stated as such. Then the problem comes that if it leads to inferences on PE practise, and enough people follow those inferences does this actually add weight without some regimented testing in the presence of a party to monitor.
>I believe all of the studies we have quoted in Part 1 suggest this.<
Note the possibility marker “may” in your quote. Then note that this is still talking about a decline in erection quality (presumably through increased venous leakage in which smooth muscle may play a part). This is not a statement that beyond the point of normality erection quality can be increased by increasing smooth muscle.
Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.
Here are some earlier posts on the same subject, some including references:
Why jelqing might work better than hanging
Why bloodflow might be important
Thanks MM, very interesting articles. The one on angiogenesis has a couple of really interesting points. (I added the numbers for reference.)
Arterial occlusion lowers the pressure in the distal vasculature thereby creating a pressure gradient favoring increased flow through preexisting collaterals. This increases fluid shear stress leading to endothelial activation with cellular edema, upregulation of adhesion molecules, mitogenic-, thrombogenic-, and fibrinolytic factors, leading to monocyte invasion with matrix digestion.(1) Smooth muscle cells migrate and proliferate and the vessel enlarges under the influence of increasing circumferential wall stress. Growth factors involved belong to the FGF family and signaling proceeds via the Ras/Raf- and the Rho cascades. (2) Increases in vascular radius and wall thickness restore fluid shear stress and circumferential wall stress to normal levels and growth stops.
These points would seem to indicate that duration of stress would be more effective than frequency. Once the fluid shear stess and wall
stress return to normal levels the growth stops. I wonder if this is why Big Girtha had such success with his all day clamping sessions?
Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.
Louis Pasteur
…Personally I think postulation is a good thing in certain circumstances but it needs to be stated as such.
I think that was clearly stated in the very first post of this article…
Like nearly everything else in PE, all the information in this post is no more than a theory.
…Then the problem comes that if it leads to inferences on PE practise,
I think it’s safe to say that everything posted on this site “leads to inference on PE practise.” That’s why it’s here, to share what we have learned, formulate and try new ideas. How much of it actually undergoes “some regimented testing in the presence of a party to monitor?” If that’s your criteria for acceptance, then you might want to find another hobby/interest.
Until we can afford labs and the education to conduct our own experiments, that’s all any of this will ever be, speculation and postulation.
Nothing presented here will be without fault and mistakes. But, I would think this forum and it’s members should be open to new ideas and encourage each other to dig deeper (and many here do just that.) When others present something new we should look for the positive in it. Not that we should just blindly accept everything as gospel but that we should focus on what’s right with it, help refine and improve on it. No one benefits when we tear down and pick apart.
Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.
Louis Pasteur
The difference, Iguana, is this: the longer I’m here the more I realise we do not know and cannot back up.
If you are going to go for psuedo science, mixing in reports which only help your theories if misrepresented on the grounds that a few references make suppositions more believable, then you need to be willing to deal with it when those suppositions are called.
If you go down the “science” route it seems reasonable to look at the data you provide.
This site is to my mind about standing on the shoulders of giants: incrementaly increasing knowledge. Maybe something of what you’ve supplied here is useful, maybe not.
If you could deal with the substance here rather than getting annoyed that questions are being raised, it might be useful. I’ll restate my question, if that helps.
You’ve shown a link (not a causal link) between ED and smooth muscle. Can you provide anything to back up the supposition that in a normal person - without ED, without abnormal veinous leakage during an erection - an increaase in smooth muscle helps erection quality? Can you provide anything that takes it out of the realm of malfunction? If you can get there can you get further; to this statement “AN IMPORTANT POINT: More Smooth Muscle = Harder Erections”*?
Also the statement
“When the smooth muscle is completely relaxed, it presses against the tunica and cuts off the veins that take blood out of your penis, as in figure 2.”*.
seems in error. Do you have any anotomical source to back that up?
Don’t get me wrong. I understand it can be frustrating if you see something and it seems plain to you but others do not see it. That’s one of the reasons for a forum: so these ideas get thrashed out and hopefully the good stuff survives.
Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.