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Originally Posted by wadzilla
Last but not least: is something that lasts for 9 years permanent enough in your book, Wad? Because, you see, your axiom “Gains last only three years because they are just elastic loss” doesn't quite accords with the abstract you are citing:
“…The patient had had an intense episode of priapism 9 years previously and his penis remained enlarged….”

marinera, I never said “gains last only 3 years.” Never. You are now clearly just being argumentative. I said - if you even care to know - that I kept my enlargement for 3+ years without any losses - then the losses came. Some like lil12big1 kept a percentage of their gains for even longer.

What caused the enlarged TA to fix at that enlarged size, if not structural changes in the penile tissue? This means production of new tissue, IMO - the amount of tissue after the enlargement was bigger than before.

So why doesn’t this apply to weight training? Why not more tissue keeping those larger muscles for years after your last gym workout.

”..A 33 year old man presented to us with a history of neglected priapism for 12 days 2 years previously. He developed a permanent unusual enlargement of the penis..”

How could an elastic enlargement achieved in 12 days last for 2 years? Elastic gains should last the same amount of time that is needed to achieved them or less - here we have exactly the opposite.

(1) Who could “build unusual (tissue) enlargement” in 12 days? So why not just PE for 12 days then quit? Or the same with going to the gym? NO TISSUE GAINS can occur in 12 days - certainly not “unusual enlargement” unless there was deformation.

(2) Who said that elastic gains should last the same amount of time that is need to achieve them or less”??? What I said is that elastic gains should last until those cells had been “recycled” vian one's DNA - this has nothing to do with the length of time that it took to deform those tissues.

See, reading articles about rat tail tendons can be more useful than misunderstanding abstracts about priapism.

So keep reading them.

Look, I can go on and on…you mention fibrosis, yet the article specifically states that he did not experience that, but that he had NORMAL FUNCTIONING of the penis.

no one supports your hypothesis that penis can grows only by 'elastic deformation'.

With that statement, I see your delusionality. Many here agree with me. I’ve seen posts in the forum that specifically stated that MY view is the one that makes sense. I’ve also received a number of PMs to that effect.

If you can’t/won’t understand what I wrote in 50+ pages then 500+ posts won’t matter. Keep reading your unrelated extracts and, as you’ve habitually done, grossly misrepresenting what I’ve said.

I’m done with this political bullshit. This was never a part of the forum before; now, you get more politics here than on all the Sunday afternoon news programs.

But Wad, they say when you use ADS the dick becomes longer and thicker, but you say just longer and smaller? What is right?

Doctors here in Sweden say that it becomes this way. (Longer and thicker)

penile fracture and tunica albuginea healing

What is Penile fracture

A penile fracture is an extremely rare injury caused by the rupture of the tunica albuginea, which envelops the corpus cavernosum penis. It is most often caused by a blunt trauma to an erect penis.[1]


Sexual Function and Tunica Albuginea Wound Healing Following Penile Fracture: An 18-year Follow-Up Study of 352 Patients from Kermanshah, Iran Author: Zargooshi, Javaad

Source: The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Volume 6, Number 4, April 2009 , pp. 1141-1150(10)

Publisher: Blackwell Publishing


Methods.  Between April 1990 and May 2008, 373 patients presented with clinical features suggestive of penile fracture. Of these, 11 declined surgery. The remaining 362 were operated upon using a degloving incision. Ten patients had venous injury and 352 had penile fracture.
At presentation, 278 (78.9%) reported no pain……..
Penile fracture was due to taqaandan in 269 patients (76.4%). Patients were treated with surgical exploration and repair within 24 hours of admission, regardless of delay in presentation. A nodule was found at follow-up in 330 patients (93.7%). The painless, mostly proximal nodule was palpated at the floor of the corpora cavernosa, in a deep midline position above the corpus spongiosum. The non-expansive nodule was not associated with erectile dysfunction (ED) or Peyronie\’s disease. Postoperative complications included mild penile pain in cold weather (two patients), transient wound edema (one patient), mild chordee (four patients), and occasional instability of the erect penis (one patient). Postoperatively, of the 217 patients who had partners, 214 (98.6%) were potent. …… ED in the remaining three could not be explained by penile fracture. Of 10 nonoperated patients, eight (80%) developed ED. …………….

Conclusion.  Pain is rare in penile fracture. Postoperatively, almost all patients develop a permanent, inconsequential, fibrotic nodule. Our time-tested approach provided excellent long-term sexual function.




Immediate surgical repair is widely accepted as the therapy of choice in penile fracture. As recent reports show, good results can also be achieved in some patients with conservative management. It is unclear which patients will truly benefit from an operation. We retrospectively compared the long-term outcomes of surgical and conservative treatment in patients with penile fracture.

Materials and Methods:

In 22 years we treated 29 patients with penile fracture. A total of 12 patients were treated with immediate surgical repair and 17 patients were treated conservatively. Patient charts were reviewed and all patients had followup by interview with an additional clinical evaluation if the result was not completely satisfactory. Outcome was rated good, moderate or poor.


Mean followup was 67 months. There was no statistical difference between patients in the surgery group and patients in the conservative group in regard to length of followup, age at presentation or length of hospital stay. In the surgery group and the conservative group 11 (92%) and 10 (59%) patients showed good outcome, respectively. Poor outcome was seen in 3 patients from the conservative group.


Overall, immediate surgery yields excellent results and is superior to nonoperative treatment in the management of penile fracture. However, conservative therapy restricted to uncomplicated cases can lead to an equally good outcome.


As the bold text suggests, I find the first study interesting for two reasons:
1) it suggests that there isn’t correlation between Peyronie disease and penile fracture;
2) it suggests that pain is not a tipycal symptom of penile fracture. (This seems to contradict all the literature on the subject that I’ve read, however).

The 2d one is interesting because it shows what should be obvious : TA isn’t an inanimated thing like a rubber band, totally passive to any stress or trauma. On the adverse, TA has the ability to heal spontaneously even after a very dramatic event like a rupture; so much this is true, that most of non-operated subjects with penile fracture healed like those who undergone surgery repairing.

Originally Posted by marinera
The 2d one is interesting because it shows what should be obvious : TA isn’t an inanimated thing like a rubber band, totally passive to any stress or trauma. On the adverse, TA has the ability to heal spontaneously even after a very dramatic event like a rupture; so much this is true, that most of non-operated subjects with penile fracture healed like those who undergone surgery repairing.

I hope that rubber band statement wasn’t directed towards me. I was just using it for an example :D

The question is, since the TA can heal spontaneously, can we get by with only a few weeks instead of a few months when it comes to a decon break??

Originally Posted by ShyMplsMale
I hope that rubber band statement wasn’t directed towards me. I was just using it for an example :D

Aha, not, you were the last person I had in mind. :)

Originally Posted by ShyMplsMale
The question is, since the TA can heal spontaneously, can we get by with only a few weeks instead of a few months when it comes to a decon break??

That’s a very hard question. By what I’ve read, TA can heal very fast; after a penile fracture, subjects are asked to avoid sexual intercourse for 4 weeks. If you think that a penile rupture can cause a wound of some centimeters width, this impressive.

But on the other hand, when we do PE we strengthen TA, so the same ability of TA is operating against us; and the worse, the more we insist working through a plateau, the more likely we are strengthening tissues.

Maybe PE overwork can be more profitably seen as a cause of overuse syndrome, where tendons and ligaments tends to become thicker and less elastic. This last can take even more than a rupture to go back to it’s original state.

So, IMHO, we should do a guess about the optimal length of a decon-break only looking at TP members: what they found effective is more pertinent than what we can end up basing on any medical paper - at least at this point of our knowledge.

I just came upon this thread. A lot of good reading here. So, do the facts here support that both hangers and manual stretches can have equal gains as long as manual stretchers do fowfers and stretching more often so their penis heals in an elongated state? This seems to make sense.

I think the most interesting thing that this collection of studies point at is the variety of reactions of human tissues; connective tissue and smooth muscle have different ways to react to different level of forces, and to the same level of force when applied with a different duration or frequence.

This should be a a richness; PEers seems to build kinda religious schools - the ultimate technique for lenght is hanging, the best way to achieve girth is clamping, etc.. There are also periods when one technique is on vogue, after a while subsides and another one is the coolest of the moment. Well, human tissues seems don’t care if you are applying a force through an hanger or your hands - they only care to adapt to forces.

So, if there is a message to get here, is that, when gains are stalling, probably changing the parameters of force applied can start a new period of gains, basing on a different mechanism of adaptation.

Last edited by marinera : 07-31-2009 at .

Sounds good.

Originally Posted by marinera
…when gains are stalling, probably changing the parameters of force applied can start a new period of gains, basing on a different mechanism of adaptation.

Bravo! Good thread marinera.

Thanks buddy. :)

I’ve been becoming a big fan of the bed fowfers. Seems to really work and not be too much work.

Periodization in PE?

Our mind works basing on models and analogies. Since PE is a relatively new practice, it’s unclear which model is the closest, so that transferring principles from a field to another would be worth. There are basically two main models here:
1) PE is like an illness;
2) PE is like training.

Those 2 models are maybe less distant than it could seem at a first look : they share somewhat the structure of the stress-adaptation process (simplifying things here, of course). Probably the most succesfull trend in sport training of the last 50 years is Periodization. Maybe giving a look at the conceptual and physiologic basis of periodization can give us some idea useful for PE gains:

Adaptation can be defined as an acute or chronic modification of an organism or
parts of an organism that make it more fit for existence under the conditions of its
environment. In this context, modification is triggered by a change in the
environment. These changes are known as variation, and can occur quantitatively
through an increase in magnitude of a given stimulus, or qualitatively through
introduction of novel or unaccustomed stimuli………
Periodization is the science which seeks to take both acute and chronic training
variables, and organize them into manageable periods, in such a way as to elicit
optimal adaptations.
Historical Basis for Periodization
Periodization was originally used to describe photoperiods of the sun (Stone, 2004).
Scientists noticed that athletes typically performed better during the summer
season, with lower performance in the winter season. Mang (1928) and Pikala
(1930) expanded on this by postulating periods of training based on internal
biorhythms in human beings. These rhythms are daily (circadian), monthly (circa
trigtan) as well as annual (circa annual), and are thought to govern energy needs and
availability of nutrients. For example Melatonin, which is related to the onset of
sleep rises at night, as well as growth hormone which stimulates the release of fatty
acids to fuel the human body during this fasting period (Knowlden, 2002, 2003,
At the beginning of the last century structuring training for long periods was not
highly investigated as scientists suggested that only a few weeks were needed to
prepare for competition. For example Butowskik (1910) wrote that ‘ we already
have tried to prolong preparation up to 5 to 6 weeks, but always we have noticed
that athletes instead of becoming versed, grow week.’…….
Of revolutionary importance was work performed by Kotav (1917) who went against
the grain by suggesting the use of long uninterrupted training periods. Longer
periods of training called for the need for an organized, periodical formulation.
Matvejev (1977),considered by many to be the true father of scientific periodization suggested that
periodization was not simply a plan, but an objective set of laws that govern the
training process.
These laws dictate the need for variation to bring about adaptation and rest to avoid
overtraining and accommodation (see physiological basis for periodization below). In
this context, Plisk (2004) defined periodization as programmed ‘variation in training
means (content) and methods (load) on a cyclic basis.’ ……
Zatsiorsky (1995) furthers this concept by
suggesting that …………. ultimately periodization is a trade off between conflicting demands.
Basis for Periodization
The physiological basis of periodization is grounded in four main adaptation models.
Each of these models attempts to explain how an organism modifies itself in
response to magnified or novel stimuli.
General Adaptation Syndrome
Seyle (1936, 1956, 1974) in breakthrough research on stress described what is
known as the General Adaptation Syndrome, comprised of three stages. These are
known as the Alarm Reaction Stage, Resistance Stage, and Stage of Exhaustion.

1. Alarm reaction stage – Here the introduction of a stressor, leads to a decrease
in performance
. This decrease in performance is accompanied by a fight or flight
response as well as the release of various stress hormones such as adrenaline, and
cortisol. In training, the stress would be in the form of a change in the environment
manifested through manipulation of acute training variables. This change would
result in overload of the system.

2. Stage of ResistanceThe organism’s defense mechanisms fight to gain
resistance. This is known as adaptation
and is characterized by elevated levels of
homeostasis. In training this could manifest itself in muscular hypertrophy,
enhanced neural drive, or metabolic adaptations.

3. Stage of Exhaustion
If the stimulus is continuous then accommodation or
monotony occurs. Accommodation is a Biological law which states that the response
of a biological object to a given constant stimulus decreases over time.
This means
that when an athlete trains the same way for extended periods of time, they either
plateau or experience maladaptation. The maladaptation according to Seyle
reflected similar symptoms to the Alarm reaction stage, and was the result of a depletion of the organisms defense mechanisms caused by chronic stress.

In periodization models, this translates to a need for variety in training to avoid
accommodation, and programmed rest to allow for complete adaptation.
It is important to realize that the transition from the stage of resistance to
exhaustion is multileveled.
1. Overreaching followed by rest for example, can lead to adaptation
2. If the overreaching stimulus is not removed then overtraining occurs (chronic
overreaching symptoms)
3. If the stimulus is still not removed then sickness and or death of the organism

Rest and variation (which can allow for rest of specific stressors) allows full
adaptation, while avoiding monotony and maladaptation. Following the cycle a new
stage of preparedness is reached and the organism can train at a higher level.
Therefore cycles accumulate and summate adaptations, thus escalating the organism
closer and closer to his or her genetic potential.
Fitness fatigue model
Wilson and Wilson (2005 a, b, c) have covered the Fitness Fatigue Model in depth……

The Fitness Fatigue model ……. [propose] that the stimulus provided by training, termed the
training impulse acts to produce two internal effects on the organism. These are
classified as fatigue (negative effect) and fitness (positive effect).
Performance or readiness is calculated by subtracting fatigue from fitness. The model also predicts
that fatigue originally is greater in magnitude than fitness. However, the fitness
lasts longer than the fatigue. …….

Currently this is the dominating model, which governs periodization, and has given
rise to the concept of the taper. The model predicts that chronically over weeks of
training, fatigue accumulates. Therefore a period in which the training impulse is
lowered is needed before competition so that the underlying fitness can be truly
revealed. As an example an athlete first hits a plateau and responds by increasing
the training load. Following this gains are seen. However, another plateau is
reached. Once this occurs the load is again increased but without subsequent gains.
The athlete then lowers the training load, and experiences gains. This is known as
delayed transformation of gains, and is thought to occur due to the dissipation of
accumulated fatigue.


Periodization Part I – History and Physiological Basis
Researched and Composed by Jacob Wilson, BSc. (Hons), MSc. CSCS. and Gabriel
“Venom” Wilson, BSc. (Hons), CSCS.

Excellent post marinera. But this must differ highly across the sorts of fatigue we are discussing, I’m sure collagen and smooth muscle must act very differently than other muscle or bone.

Tendons and ligaments have to adapt similarly to striatus muscles, so I don’t think principles of periodization are not appliable. There was a time where tendons were thought to be pretty much as rope attached to muscles, not really reactive to stimulus. As some of excerpts posted in this very same thread show, in recent years research has lead to the conclusion that this is not true, and that tendons and ligaments are entity with their own metabolism, similar to muscles. The same has to be true for smooth muscle (think to heart, lungs etc.).

This of course makes sense: how could it be that a muscle become stronger without tendons and ligaments not strenghtening as well? This is so true, that when steroids are used the most common injuries happens to tendons: because they don’t strengthen at the same ratio of muscles, like in a natural athlete.

If you see the historical premises of periodization, they are based on the fact that the human body is a whole entity, so it can be affected by many things. In example, a thing many are forgetting is that any kind of stress hits not only the body, but the nervous system also.

marinera, I’m PE’ing once again. I have a track record this time of a whopping 3 days. Anyway, I can’t help but think about what PE methods are best. I’m also thinking about rest days.

I posted this on this thread because there is some great information on this thread regarding connective tissues.

I’d like to discuss a couple of things with you on the subject of loading.

I’d like to discuss the differences between cyclic loading, and steady traction (static or dynamic loading).

At one end of the spectrum, the most cyclic form of loading is jelqing, and at the other end of the spectrum is using an extender.

Most cyclical — > jelqing, manual stretches, hanging, pumping, extenders < — least cyclical

I remember studies stating that cyclical loading brought on fatigue, and also released more biochemicals such as collagenase. On the other hand static and dynamic loading for hours induced creep, and the release of the biochemicals, such as collagenase (I’m refering to a post by Dongalong about contractures being treated by traction loading). Does cyclic loading cause more collagenase to be released?

On the other hand, keeping connective tissue under a light load for a long time is said to leave the most residual elongation. Though, it is suggested that the extenders need to be worn for 6 hours or more per day.

Would you like to kick this topic around a bit?

If I did nothing but PE in a day, I might do less than 300 jelqs, a few light stretches, then slap an extender on if for a light stretch that lasted hours.

I didn’t do any PE yet today, my flaccid hang has been good, and I will probably have sex tonight. It’s going to be hard for me to force myself to do a session after I get back from having sex tonight.

marinera, your post #276 mentions differences between cyclic loading and static loading.

Last edited by Kojack10 : 08-18-2009 at .

Extenders needs to be worn at lest 3 hours daily, if what is true for others tissues does apply to TA. With a progressive relaxation (static progressive stretching), time could be cut to 30-60 minutes daily.

It seems that cyclical and static tends to stimulate growth in different ways. Jelq is cyclical, but if you do want to just reach elongation, maybe fast stretches would be better.

Intensity of load is also a factor. Low load x long time should be alternate to hihg load x short time. This can be done all at the same time, or in different phases. I tend to believe that the second approach is better.

Ask me whatever you want, I like brainstorming. :)


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