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Marinera, just want to ask you.
If you stretch some time(I stretch 3 minutes now) and make microtears, how long do it take for the penis to recover? 24, 48 hours? Or what
do you think?
I have began to stretch one on, one of, and it sems to work. You break it down and let it build up.
Regards
$1,000,000 question, svensken. :)
It depends mostly the amount of damage you cause. If we are speaking to microtears only in the connective tissue, aka TA, the healing process should start about 48h after the damage. Since, however, those damages extends on a very small area, one could apply again stress without delaying too much the healing process.
After some days, anyway, 1 or more rest days will be required, and after some weeks straight using high tension a decon break will be needed - the healing process requires not less than 7 days of rest for conective tissue of most body parts, and I see no reasons why connective tissue of the penis should work differently.
This seems confirmed by anecdotal reports: many reports gains while in a decon break after an intense manual routine.
If this sounds confusing, I’ll use this resume:
………You can get the full article here: http://www.sahs .utmb.edu/progr … hrx/ROM2000.doc
The stress is divided into four bands which are defined very roughly as follows:
A <80N (<18lbs)
B 80-180N (18-40lbs)
C 180-280N (40-63lbs)
D >280N (>63lbs)
From these four bands, they have four types of therapy intensity/duration which are listed below with some key points:
Area S1: defined as all of band A
Stimulates fibrocytes to maintain length; until the first slight feeling of stretch. If held for a few minutes the feeling of stretch goes away (accommodates). If sustained for 20 – 30 minutes will signal fibrocytes to remodel tissue longer (sustained low load stretch). Very effective at signaling fibroblasts to remodel collagen in late inflammatory/ early proliferative phase.
Exercise: Daily - eg. ADS
Area S2: defined as lower half of band B
The elastic range actual stretching; some fibers slip, some bonds break, some fibers denature.
If sustained for 20 – 30 minutes will signal fibrocytes to remodel tissue longer (sustained low load stretch) but is difficult to tolerate for 20-30 minutes.
Exercise: Needs at least one day rest between bouts. eg. Hanging/Stretching
Area S3: defined as upper part of band B and small part of band C
Works in the elastic range and a bit of the plastic range; significant stretching; many fibers slip, bonds break, some fibers denature. Stimulates fibrocytes to remodel tissue longer with time. Painful stretch, hard tolerate.
Exercise: Needs at least one day rest between bouts(!?!). eg. Possibly stretching, though a little on the extreme side for most.
Area S4: defined as middle of band C
Not practiced by physical therapists (occasionally by surgeons with anesthesia or unconscious patients!)
Excercise: N/A to us
$1,000,000 question, svensken. :)
It depends mostly the amount of damage you cause. If we are speaking to microtears only in the connective tissue, aka TA, the healing process should start about 48h after the damage. Since, however, those damages extends on a very small area, one could apply again stress without delaying too much the healing process.
After some days, anyway, 1 or more rest days will be required, and after some weeks straight using high tension a decon break will be needed - the healing process requires not less than 7 days of rest for conective tissue of most body parts, and I see no reasons why connective tissue of the penis should work differently.
This seems confirmed by anecdotal reports: many reports gains while in a decon break after an intense manual routine.
If this sounds confusing, I’ll use this resume:
/forum/showthread.php?p=277892#post277892
Sounds really good!
But Marinera, everyone give theirs routines and theories that they think are best.
But after this thread, what do you have got? What do you think is best to do?
But if you can, tell me a theori and routine that shall work because off this thread.
I already answered to this question, I think?
/forum/showthread.php?p=1432848#post1432848
I can add to what said there, that, more than ‘revolutionary’ discoveries, this thread seems to validate many of what we already knew:
1) varying techinques and intensity is good to avoid stalling points;
2) heat is good to help gains (even if I tend to believe that on the long run warm up isn’t going to make enormous differences in gains - but it can make some);
3) high forces should be used only when all potential gains that could come from low tensions work are exhausted;
4) since tissues are able to change their structure and size through different processes,individual specificities can play a big role, because it could happen that for a given man one of those processes is not efficient, while another adaptive process is more efficient, and for another man the adverse could be true.
So, it’s really impossible to write down any ‘best routine’, not even in theory.
I was planning to post about this for a while, but it kind of slipped my mind.
After reading wad’s (since deleted) thread Science behind the EtP Theory, I checked one of the sources he used to back his hypothesis (https://www.garymarshall.org , not available anymore), which described a method of surgical girth enlargement using a technique called "saphenous vein grafts". The technique consists of adding "saphena grafts to longitudinal openings made bilaterally in the albuginea along the whole length of the penis".
What caught my attention was the fact that, while this technique results in substantial girth enlargement in the erect state, no enlargement is achieved in the flaccid state. So, if the ratio of erect girth and flaccid girth is indicative of the elasticity of tunica albuginea, then the results of this girth enlargement method would seem to suggest that the saphenous vein has perfect (infinite) elasticity. Otherwise, this surgical method should also result in some flaccid girth enlargement.
A new technique for augmentation phalloplasty
But, according to this article: Elasticity of blood vessels , veins have relatively little elasticity.
My conclusion, based on this (incomplete) information, would be that there must be some mechanism other than perfect elasticity of the saphenous vein, that can explain the fact that girth is enlarged in erect state, but not in the flaccid state.
I would definitely welcome your input on this, marinera.
Abstract:
Eur Urol. 2002 Sep;42(3):245-53; discussion 252-3.
A new technique for augmentation phalloplasty: albugineal surgery with bilateral saphenous grafts—three years of experience.
Austoni E, Guarneri A, Cazzaniga A.
Division of Urology, University of Milan, Ospedale S Giuseppe, Via S Vittore 12, 21123, Milan, Italy. edoardo.austoni@oh-fbf.it
OBJECTIVES: Penile augmentation surgery is a highly controversial issue due to the low level of standardisation of surgical techniques. The aim of the study is to illustrate a new technique to solve the problem of enlarging the penis by means of additive surgery on the albuginea of the corpora cavernosa, guaranteeing a real increase in size of the erect penis. METHODS: Between 1995 and 1997, 39 patients who requested an increase in the diameter of their penises underwent augmentation phalloplasty with bilateral saphena grafts. The patients considered eligible for surgery were patients with either hypoplasia of the penis or functional penile dysmorphophobia. All the patients included in our study presented normal erection at screening. The average penis diameter in a flaccid state and during erection was found to be 2.1cm (1.6-2.7 cm) and 2.9 cm (2.2-3.7 cm), respectively. Before surgery the patients were informed of the experimental nature of the surgical procedure. The increase in volume of the corpora cavernosa was achieved by applying saphena grafts to longitudinal openings made bilaterally in the albuginea along the whole length of the penis. RESULTS: No major complications and specifically no losses of sensitivity of the penis or erection deficiencies occurred during the post-operative follow-up period. All the patients resumed their sexual activity in 4 months. A measurement of the penile dimensions was carried out 9 months after surgery. No clinical meaningful increases in the diameter of the flaccid penis were documented. The average penis diameter during erection was found to be 4.2 cm (3.4-4.9) with post-surgery increases in diameter varying from 1.1 to 2.1cm (p<0.01). CONCLUSIONS: The penile enlargement phalloplasty technique with albuginea surgery suggested by the authors definitely is indicated for increasing the volume of the corpora cavernosa during erection. Albuginea surgery with saphena grafts has been found to be free from aesthetic and functional complications with excellent patient satisfaction.
PMID: 12234509 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
A new technique for augmentation phalloplasty
Elasticity of blood vessels.
Elasticity of blood vessels Introduction There are many blood vessels in the body. There are two main ones, arteries and veins. These blood vessels are able to expand in order to let more blood flow through them. They also contract to help control the flow of blood. Blood is pumped out of the heart to the body via the arteries and the veins carry the blood back to the heart. When the blood is in the blood vessels, pressure is present. In the arteries the blood is at higher pressure than it is when in the veins, arteries also have thicker walls (due to the high pressure) than the walls of the veins. The elasticity of arteries is what sustains the pressure on the blood when the heart relaxes and keeps the blood flowing in a forward direction. In the following experiment, we observed the elasticity of veins and arteries so that…
…artery was placed onto the paper clip. The length of the artery was then measured whilst it had no extra weight added to it. After this, a 10g weight was placed onto the weight holder, which was attached to the artery. The length was then measured and recorded. Another weight was then added on top of the previous weight, making the weight equal to 20g. The length of the artery was then recorded. Thereafter the addition of weights continued until it reached 100g, at each time adding 10g, whilst recording the length at each new weight. Once this was completed, we then needed to remove 10g of weight at a time and then recorded the new length (if changed) of the artery. This then allowed us to work out the elasticity of the blood vessel. Again, the weights continued to be removed until all the weights were taken off. This entire method was carried out with three separate pieces of artery and then the exact same method with the veins. During this experiment there are possible sources of error, which might have made the results inaccurate and on the whole, the entire experiment unfair. The pieces of artery and vein were not of the same diameter or width; this altered the strength of the pieces. Reading the length of the blood vessel using a ruler proved to be difficult which meant that the length could easily have been misread and therefore inaccurate. Results To gain the results of the elasticity of the artery and vein, the length of the blood vessel after the weight was removed was subtracted from the length of the blood vessel after the weight was added. The Elasticity of: Weight (g) Artery One Artery Two Artery Three 0 -2 1 5 10 5 3 5 20 3 6 4 30 7 12 6 40 7 8 6 50 6 8 9 60 8 6 10 70 6 6 7 80 5 5 4 90 4 3 4 100 3 2 3 Average 5.2 6 6.3 The Elasticity of: Weight (g) Vein One Vein Two Vein Three 0 -2 -3 -2 10 -2 -1 0 20 1 0 1 30 0 0 1 40 2 2 2 50 2 1 2 60 4 2 3 70 3 4 3 80 2 3 2 90 1 1 2 100 1 1 1 Average 1.2 1 1.5 Discussion Looking at my results I can see that there is clearly more elasticity in the arteries than there is in the veins. The length of the arteries when weights were added was longer than that of the vein. The longest length of the artery when the weight was added is 43mm and the longest length for this, of the vein is 30mm. The length of the artery after the weight is removed is close to the length it was at, when the weights were added. In comparison to this, the length of the vein didn’t return to the length it was at, when the weights were added as much as the arteries. Veins have a smaller/thinner layer of elastic fibres and smooth muscle and a large lumen. From this description of the vein, it is clear that the elasticity and strength of the vein is not very high. Due to the vein not having a thick layer of elastic fibres, we can see that …
I was planning to post about this for a while, but it kind of slipped my mind.After reading wad’s (since deleted) thread Science behind the EtP Theory, I checked one of the sources he used to back his hypothesis (https://www.garymarshall.org , not available anymore), which described a method of surgical girth enlargement using a technique called "saphenous vein grafts". The technique consists of adding "saphena grafts to longitudinal openings made bilaterally in the albuginea along the whole length of the penis"…..
Very good find Gjurob. I found the full text version with pics, I think:
Austoni Phalloplasty
(warning! Disturbing pics inside)
when I have a minute I’m going to read this and post something about, it is not easy material but definitely interesting.
Well, I’ve read, very interesting document.
About your question, Gjurob, they measured the diameter, not the circumference, so maybe the place where the grafts were applyed made the difference.
Here:
"A comparative study on two kinds of surgical procedures of penile corpora cavernosa augmentation.
Yang B, Liu XR, Hong QQ, Qiu RS, Ji CY.
Department of Plastic Surgery, The First Affiliated Hospital, Guangzhou Medical College, 151 Yanjiang Road, Guangzhou 510120, PR China. ybdoctorsysu@163.com
OBJECTIVE: …… The purpose of this study is to provide two surgical procedures of penile corpora cavernosa augmentation and to investigate its effect by implanting autogenous saphenous vein grafts or expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE) vessel patches. METHODS: Between January 2001 and December 2005, 20 patients underwent surgeries in which bilateral longitudinal incisions were placed on the tunica albuginea and the penile corpora cavernosa were extended by means of implantation of saphenous grafts or PTFE artificial vessel patches. ……Before the operation, the penile length and perimeter in the flaccid and erectile states were as follows: flaccid length 2.5-7.5 cm and flaccid perimeter 3.0-7.5 cm; erectile length 4.9-10.5 cm and erectile perimeter 4.5-10.0 cm. RESULTS: Immediately after surgery, the penile corpus circumferential measurements (on table), showed remarkable increases which were 1.0-2.3 cm and 1.5-3.0 cm in the flaccid and erectile states, respectively; then, at 12 months to 5 years’ follow-up, these girth gains had reduced by 0.5-1 cm in some cases…..
Comparing grafts
shows that circumference augmented both in flaccid and erect state.
Back to the Austoni’ study, read page 8: "...the muscle coat of the vein graft reacts to stretching produced by blood pressure increasing in size and thickness and tranforming in tunica abluginea.". It shows an amazing ability of our body to transform its structure using a variety of processes and mechanisms, that’s the most important thing I’m getting from this excellent reading.
This new article you’ve posted seems to contradict the findings of the previous one in which an increase of only 0.16cm in flaccid diameter on average was recorded, while erect diameter increased by 1.36cm on average (see Table 2).
So, which one of these two studies got it right?
…
Back to the Austoni’ study, read page 8: “...the muscle coat of the vein graft reacts to stretching produced by blood pressure increasing in size and thickness and tranforming in tunica abluginea.”. It shows an amazing ability of our body to transform its structure using a variety of processes and mechanisms, that’s the most important thing I’m getting from this excellent reading.
Yeah, that part is definitely intriguing. I wonder how exactly this transformation takes place. Too bad they didn’t give a more detailed account of this process.
I thought this part was interesting too:
“All the patients underwent techniques for exercising the corpora cavernosa for 40 days after surgery (Video Sex Stimulation, Vacuum erection device without constriction band) in order to promote flushing of the lacunar space of the cavernosa, improving its oxygenation and increasing micro-compliance of the erectile tissue in adapting to the new volume of the corpora cavernosa.”
Sounds a lot like what us PEers do through exercises such as jelqing and pumping (“Vacuum erection device”?). They seem to believe that the erectile tissue within the corpora cavernosa needs these exercises in order to adapt to the enlarged tunica. At least that’s how I’m reading this.
Yeah there seems to be a contradiction. I wonder why they measured the diameter instead than the perimeter, that’s strange.
About the saphenous vein, what is interesting is that it is so similar to tunica albuginea tissue that after several months it actually becomes normal tunica albuginea tissue - so the study seems to say. So, instead than studying tail rabbits tendons, maybe we can read studies about veins to understand how they react to stretching. I think there have to be many of similar studies in the coronaric/hearth surgeries field.
I thought this part was interesting too:“All the patients underwent techniques for exercising the corpora cavernosa for 40 days after surgery (Video Sex Stimulation, Vacuum erection device without constriction band) in order to promote flushing of the lacunar space of the cavernosa, improving its oxygenation and increasing micro-compliance of the erectile tissue in adapting to the new volume of the corpora cavernosa.”
Sounds a lot like what us PEers do through exercises such as jelqing and pumping (“Vacuum erection device”?). They seem to believe that the erectile tissue within the corpora cavernosa needs these exercises in order to adapt to the enlarged tunica. At least that’s how I’m reading this.
I am reading like that as well. Wondering if they do believe if a systematic and more intense use of these techniques (for example, vacuum pump with the constriction band) could be beneficial to enlarge the penis without a surgery. But even if they do, I do not think they would say, for obvious reasons. :)
… A collagen matrix extended with heat induces plastic deformation much more so than at normal body temperature, with the added benefit that it does so with much less damage than at normal temperatures. The extensibility however is limited by the construction of the cellular matrix. A technically inaccurate but easy model to imagine and describe this is if you picture a crosshatch pattern made from wooden strips, with pins at each intersection (like a wall trellis). The pins have a heat sensitive glue to stop them moving. If you apply heat it melts the pin glue and allows you to deform the trellis to make it longer, and when it cools down it resets the glue without doing much damage to the wooden strips. Despite that each sheath is separate and has a general axis bias, they do (in my experience at least) affect each other. I can get length gains with heat, then if I try to get girth gains, it is at some (but not complete) expense of the length gains, and vice versa. I don’t know if anybody else has had this observation.The reason I say No is because if you want to extend beyond the plastic deformation limits of the above wall trellis analogy you need to break the strips of wood little by little, and the body will repair them. More breaks and reconnections over time will allow this trellis to grow slowly longer, where all the limiting wooden strips need to be broken, but bit by bit, where the weakest go first, then the next weakest etc. As for crosslinks in this analogy, imagine that the body doesn’t just fill in or lengthen the strips of wood, but it also nails down some additional new strips across the planks, which effectively triangulate the structure of sorts. What this will do is add more strength (more fibres) to the structure, but it will also add rigidity/stiffness. On top of that it will prevent retraction of the penis (hence increased flaccid length).
…………
Shiver - For Science minded PE’ers
need
…..
[Quote= Originally Posted by Tomba
Much like comparing the capacity of a 2 inch rubber-band verses a 6 inch rubber-band, the six incher has inherently greater stretch capacity.]The difference between that analogy and our situation is that our elastic band is part of an intelligent organism that has the ability under the right conditions to cease being a 2” elastic band and evolve into a 6” rubber band. This is demonstrated in every living thing around us every day. Judging the capacity of a 2” rubber band is not the same as judging its potential. If that were the case then Einstein would have remained a patents clerk all his life.
Shiver - For Science minded PE’ers
While this is a little off-topic, I’d really like to see someone take a three-month decondition break and then try the following:
1. Use a IR heating pad capable of generating temperatures in the 104-113F range to warm up for five to ten minutes.2. Hang one heavy, 20 minute set. Use heat for the first 15 minutes and an ice pack for the last five minute.
3. Remove the hanger and edge for 10 minutes.
4. Rest for two days.
5. Repeat for four to eight weeks.
MX - Effectiveness of an ADS as a supplement to hanging
While several members have influenced my thinking about this type of routine, it’s basically Shiver’s routine applied to hanging.When it comes to PE, there seems to be two schools of thought. One is the continuous work approach. When applied to hanging, the idea here is to hang as often as possible and then use an ADS whenever you are not hanging or asleep.
The other approach is to apply a certain amount of stress and then allow for inflammation, proliferation and remodeling (IPR). The bodybuilding crowd talks about this as exercise, compensation and supercompensation (or stimulus, fatigue, rest, recovery, and supercompensation).
What I suggested in the previous post is an example of the IPR approach. Would it work with hanging? I have no idea. It works for Shiver with manual stretching. It works for me with clamping. If someone wanted a very time efficient routine, it might be worth trying.
MX - Effectiveness of an ADS as a supplement to hanging
I wrote the above just before doing my routine. I seems like I gained a little again (I’m talking ~1mm here so not statistically significant) which is promising. ….
I’ve been playing around with the ideas in this protocol for a while now (ever since the thread “benefits of heat in PE”), and with that routine I came in completely deconditioned and made daily gains for for 9-10 days then it stalled completely so I stopped. Earlier this year I did the same thing but with IR and had lost some size before starting, but gained daily again and surpassed my previous best by just a little. Unfortunately gains stalled in the same way.What I’m doing now is exactly the same thing except I’m not doing it daily, and seem so far to be making small incremental gains. Before, when I stalled I continued daily for 6 weeks and never made any progress whatsoever, which suggests that there is something about this routine in which the timing needs to be in sync with the Inflammation/Proliferation/Remodelling (IPR) cycle.
I know it was requested not to use speculation in this thread, but here it is anyway because something is becoming very clear to me:
Each day routines such as 2on/1off, 5on/2off etc need to be factored along with their intensity in order to work progressively with the above “IPR” cycle. If you do a workout it starts with the inflammation part which is normally between 1 and 3 days depending on degree of trauma. Overlapping the tail end of that is the proliferation stage which transforms into the remodelling stage which can be months or even years. Every time we do an exercise we are kicking off a new IPR cycle which is on top of the existing one. If remodelling is occuring and we change the tissues at ground zero to an inflammatory one, then the other stages will be compromised and progress cannot be made.
……….
Shiver - When I have made great gains, I…
There are many levels of PE intensity that seem to get results, I just think that if you go for intense workouts then you’ll have to do progressively tougher things to keep making the gain (eg. Hanging vs Jes)………. Connective tissues under normal operation have very low turnover and extremely low blood access. After trauma they become more permiable to get nutrients and growth factors in for damage repair.Imho, the trick is not to outpace the process, or recreate the tears daily, but to not induce the state in the first place. Growth could still occur, but you would see diminishing returns from ever greater effort. ….
Since the start of the new year I have been focusing on girth non-stop with no rest days and working it out every chance I get. I will measure in March and see if rest days are needed for girth. This will be the ultimate test, I have over-trained every day lol.
Time to measure girth soon... previously 4.5", been targeting girth for months!
Haha, best wishes on your gains Herbal.