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Why Near Infrared is better than FIR and US

Why Near Infrared is better than FIR and US

Hi all

First of all, a brief introduction.
I’m a biomedical engineer living in Switzerland, where I work for a world renown maker of medical devices: 8 years ago for my job I started making research on the effects of infrared light on human tissues. The primary objective for the company was to develop instruments for pain relief, skin regeneration/healing and possibly treatment for diabetes. Even if it’s usually considered ‘cosmetic’ more than ‘medical’, another important (and rich) application is anti-age treatment.
I knew this forum already, since a dozen years ago when I first tried PE [see more of my personal story with PE below], so as you may guess, in my research I’ve also been considering a more personal objective: to understand the possible efficacy of infrared therapy on penis extension.

As others have noted, in the last few years PE changed a lot. Now I see a lot of useful information about the advantages of heat: the forum is particularly oriented towards ultrasound therapy or, to a minor degree, far infrared. Their primary objective is to produce heat to bring the body tissues (and collagen in particular) in a state of plastic deformation: they produce heat, and heat generates an effect. I consider this ‘annealing’.
The bulk of my expertise is with near infrared; I have minor knowledge of far infrared, and very limited knowledge of ultrasound therapy. I’m writing this to explain why I do believe NIR is the way to go.

Absorption_spectrum_of_liquid_water.png
(Water absorption rates at different wavelengths. Red is NIR, green is FIR ranges. Beware the logarithmic scale on y axis)

Far infrared works by interacting with water molecules. As we know, human body is largely made of water and FIR radiation gets absorbed by water resulting in heat generation: it’s basically the microwave oven principle, and it’s no surprise – microwaves come just after FIR in the radiation spectrum (wavelength = 1mm is the end of the FIR spectrum and start of the microwave spectrum). US does something very similar, generating heat by means of vibration. They do not interact with cells in another way.
With near infrared, on the other hand, heat is just a positive byproduct: irradiation interacts with photoreceptors in cells triggering more effective biochemical reactions and cellular growth. Since a percentage (albeit smaller) is absorbed by water, heat is generated too. This truly is a major difference.

When analyzing the absorption rates of different wavelengths in the human body, also to understand how deep they really get, it’s important to acknowledge the so called ‘optical windows’: they are wavelength ranges that can penetrate human tissues deeper than others. These windows are mainly due to the absorption of water, blood and other compounds in the tissues themselves.

Absorption_spectrum.png
(The first optical window, where absorption rates from water, melanin and hemoglobin are minimal)

The first and most relevant of these windows happens among 600 and 1300nm, at the end of the visible spectrum and almost the entire near infrared: in this range the combined absorption of water, melanin and haemoglobin is at a minimum, so radiation in this wavelength does not get absorbed in the outer layers of the skin and can pass through tissues. Beyond that, water absorption in particular grows an awful lot: to give an idea, water absorption is ~2 at 750nm (where NIR begins), and it’s ~120000 at 15000nm (=15μm, where far infrared begins). It’s no surprise then that FIR basically heats water molecules.
I won’t get into details about how much different wavelengths really penetrate the human body: this changes a lot among different parts of the body (for examples, depending on how much water there is). I also think it’s not particularly important for the extent of PE for specific reasons - the penis contains no bones, cartilage or other structures that usually are harder to penetrate, and it can easily be irradiated from all directions, so being rather thin (we’re not talking irradiating a thigh) it’s only necessary a ~1.5cm penetration depth to reach every part of it.

Here is what I found: I can’t divulge the results of my research, but as a matter of fact, all I say here can be found (more or less) in papers published in the last few years.

1. Yes, infrared IS effective; in some cases far beyond what we were expecting. I’m thinking for example scar regeneration, wrinkles reduction and muscle growth. In the next few years I expect to see an impressive number of medical procedures based on NIR to become available and be universally accepted. I’m actually surprised to see all those ADS for face creams promising (and never delivering) what IR gets much closer to accomplish.

2. NIR irradiation directly triggers cellular division and growth. It’s important to understand it’s a very different approach from traditional heating solutions (ultrasound and far infrared – I don’t even consider heating pads or other solutions based on conduction). Growth by heating works by entering a range of temperatures (usually >40°) where the collagen matrix destabilizes and gets plastic deformation. Then, during a rest period real growth slowly happens (as it always happens in tissues) in this new elongated form.
NIR radiation interacts through photoreceptors present in cells, such as cytochromes or other photosensitive proteins: when infrared light is absorbed by these photoreceptors, it triggers a series of biochemical reactions that influence cellular metabolism, proliferation and differentiation. For example, infrared light activates intracellular signaling pathways, such as those mediated by transcription factors, which regulate gene expression and therefore directly affect cell growth.
Near infrared light also stimulates the production of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), which is the fundamental energy unit for cells. This increase in energy promotes metabolic processes and protein synthesis necessary for cell growth.
This means that NIR irradiation triggers cellular growth even without applying an elongating force on the tissues, and this growth would go in all directions (towards girth too): applying a force only provides a privileged growth direction.

3. Even if in the last 5 to 10 years a growing number of scientific papers have been published on NIR effects on human body, and even if there’s quite a lot of scientific consensus over the base science, there’s so much wrong or plainly false information online it’s actually scary. There are just too many salesmen online claiming absurd baseless things; the web is unfortunately filled with images that are clearly made by marketers or advertisers, even if they may seem extracted from science papers.
For example, pictures like this Enhanced LEDs.jpg : it’s not just misleading, it’s wrong.

4. Even if IR emitters are quite easy to make, the widest majority of pads and IR panels available online are little more than a scam; I purchased quite many now and tested them using lab equipment. Sometimes they literally only are emitters of red (visible) light, which by itself can be minimally useful. Sometimes, they do not even emit light (visible or IR) at all, being just heating pads. One of the most frequent scams is a simple heating pad with a thin layer of IR emitting polymer: they emit IR, true, but only minimally and as a consequence of heat: that emission intensity won’t go beyond the most external layers of your dermis.
Even the most expensive ones often do not meet the claimed wavelength, thus drastically altering the efficacy of their use. Curiously enough, often the most expensive ones are the least performing: it really is all marketing.

5. Not all infrared is born equal: there are some wavelengths which are more effective, others just not effective at all. There are wavelengths in the far infrared range, for example, that can penetrate human tissues deeper than NIR, but they do not interact with cellular photoreceptors in the same way and are basically absorbed by water to produce heat. This brings FIR much closer to ultrasound therapy, rather than to NIR.
Even in the NIR range there are important differences: skin penetration drastically decreases above 900nm. The most effective range is among 810 and 870nm. 660nm is a wavelength often mentioned, because it’s near the end of the visible spectrum (red light): its penetration depth though doesn’t exceed 3mm, so it can be effective for skin treatment (e.g. Wrinkle reduction) but not much for PE.

6. It may be kind of surprising but while NIR irradiation increases the proteins and enzymes responsible for collagen and cells growth in the skin, a repeated, frequent irradiation may be counterproductive, resulting in an opposite effect.
This is something I‘ve been testing recently: early data seems to prove that once again, less could be more, but we haven’t understood the reason yet.

7. This is probably what you were hoping for: yes, it helps PE too. In my opinion, NIR is by far the most secure, easy and comfortable solution of all to get a real growth.

Here’s my story – I.e., how it helped me:

Quote
When I discovered PE I bought a Penimaster Pro, 13 years ago: it made me gain something like 1/1.5cm (~0.5 inches), then no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t gain more. In hindsight, I’ve come to believe that it was mostly due to ligament stretching, more than actual cellular growth. I gave up.
After doing extensive research on IR, in the last year I started using it and I gave the PM another try: I gained 4.2cm (1.65 inches) in little more than 6 months, despite limited time using it. I think I’m in the ballpark of 600 hours overall. Since time is an issue, and for other reasons too (such as the discomfort for extended wear of the PM), I’m considering now to add pumping (or hanging) to my routine.

Here’s my stats (between November 8th 2022 and May 18th 2023):
BPEL: 12.9cm -> 17.1cm (+4.2cm)
BPFSL: 13.1cm -> 18.0cm (+4.9cm)
EG: 13.2cm -> 14.2cm (+1cm)

How does IR work?

Quote
Near infrared penetrates deep below the skin and impacts both keratinocytes (HaCaT), which are the external cells of epidermis, and dermal fibroblast (HDF), the deeper cells in dermis. Specific wavelengths such as 850nm go deeper than that, reaching fibroblast in inner tissues: actual depth depends on the tissue properties, but it’s exceedingly enough to make sure the entire penis inner structures get irradiated and stimulated. As a matter of fact, has been widely proved IR penetration can reach the prostate.
Fibroblast are of particular importance, since they are the cells producing (among other things) procollagen and elastin; even more important, they produce fibroblast growth factor (FGF) and epidermis growth factor (EGF). These are the proteins responsible for cell division, growth and differentiation. In particular, near infrared irradiation strongly increases TGF-β in tissues, which is the main activator in production of procollagen and fibronectin.
Basically, IR acts like the proper trigger to activate and foster cell division and growth. Of all the application I’ve been studying, using NIR in PE is probably the simplest, due to ‘external’ nature of it (imagine using NIR to cure prostate or other inner organs).

How do I use it?
After purchasing and trying different NIR pads in the last couple of years, thanks to my work I’ve been able to have a specific pad produced and test its compliance (in terms of effective wavelength, emitting power, size and comfort). I just wrap it loosely around the extender, making sure most of my penis gets irradiated while being stretched.
I’ll be happy to answer any question, if I can – as I said, I can’t get into the details of my job results.
I also want to make a couple questions of my own:
1. If you have an infrared pad, please let me know which one you own, where you got it from and what you think of it, in terms of pros and cons.

2. I tested IR only with extending: do you have any experience with IR in pumping, clamping or hanging? I have many reasons to believe it won’t change its efficacy at all, but of course, I need more research on that.

Hope this helps others too.
Let me know what you think

Absorption_spectrum.webp
(21.0 KB, 253 views)
Enhanced LEDs.webp
(36.2 KB, 356 views)

Last edited by memento : 06-01-2023 at . Reason: 1st update to remove external links to images.

Thank you memento!

I’d like to trigger a constructive discussion about the difference between NIR therapy and heat-based ones, which in recent years have become dominant in PE.

I use the tendlite IR wand while hanging. Any research on that brand?


Goal 7.5 x 6.5

Start 4/22 6 x 5.25 BG

Current 11/22 6 x 5.5 BG 4-7/8" MG

Salli un merci gsait,

it all sounds very interesting. I would be interested if you can give us any key data of recommendable devices. In the best case, even a product.
I am currently using US, with modest success. FIR has worked poorly for me. Thus, I’m open for new things and would like to experiment in this direction.

The principle of action is different with NIR than with FIR as far as I understood. Does this affect the known temperature thresholds? Is there any difference in the known routine from FIR/US?

I can’t wait to see this unfold further. You brushed upon most of the styles of heating but I’m curious to know your thoughts on RF like Tutt has been experimenting with vs NIR?

I really hope Tutt and Kyrpa get involved in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Solvay1927
6. It may be kind of surprising but while NIR irradiation increases the proteins and enzymes responsible for collagen and cells growth in the skin, a repeated, frequent irradiation may be counterproductive, resulting in an opposite effect.
This is something I‘ve been testing recently: early data seems to prove that once again, less could be more, but we haven’t understood the reason yet.

Going to need more specifics for this.

1. How frequently? Once per day? Per month? Does exposure duration affect maximum frequency?

2. Over exposure leads to overall decreasing collagen and cell growth or relative to the increased amounts from NIR exposure? What is the optimal exposure duration?

3. Has irradiance been considered? What I mean is, there is no mention of "how much light" you are using.

Is the pad you use available for purchase?


Start date: 10/06/2021, NBPEL: 6in, MEG: 5in

UPDATE: 12/14/2022, NPBEL: 7.25in, MEG:5.25

I’ve been waiting for this topic to arise because I’ve been using the LightStim for Wrinkles as a heating source and some of its wavelengths are in the NIR spectrum:

amber (605 nm)
light red (630 nm)
dark red (660 nm)
infrared (855 nm)

I’ve been using it following kyrpa’s methods and I’ve noticed length gains ONLY if you extend during the cool down and doing it in the 30 sec stretch/15 sec rest/15 sec slowly extend back to stretched length.

The trick for me, with this device, is that it has to heat up for about 30 minutes before it is effective. Once it’s hot, I manually stretch for about 20 minutes while holding it on my dick. Then 10 min of that stretched cooldown I mentioned. I’ve seen results and posted those in the progress reports forum.

Originally Posted by Solvay1927
.The most effective range is among 810 and 870nm.

Would the 850nm LED arrays used for at-night illumination of CCTV camera’s be useful?

Originally Posted by XL.com
I use the tendlite IR wand while hanging. Any research on that brand?


I haven’t personally tested IR wands, since they are meant to be used in different application - for examples, focused over a specific aching muscle, a joint or skin (wrinkles).
I would never use it for PE, cause it makes so hard to irradiate the entire penis tissue: IR pads are much more versatile for it.

Originally Posted by Rocco25
I would be interested if you can give us any key data of recommendable devices. In the best case, even a product.
I am currently using US, with modest success. FIR has worked poorly for me. Thus, I’m open for new things and would like to experiment in this direction.

The principle of action is different with NIR than with FIR as far as I understood. Does this affect the known temperature thresholds? Is there any difference in the known routine from FIR/US?


I’m not sure I can recommend a product, partly because as a user I don’t want to push sales for a product, partly because I’d probably not know which one to recommend.
As I said: most renown products cost way too much for what they actually deliver.
In general, stay away from:
- heating pads, even if they mention IR.
- pads mentioning IR emitting polymers.
- devices not being specific about the emission wavelength.
- devices emitting in wavelengths which do not include 850nm, or emitting only a minimal part in that wavelength.
- pads with low emitting power.
- pads with sizes or shapes that would make it difficult to wrap it around the penis (not too tight, not too loose).

Originally Posted by IndyMan
Going to need more specifics for this.


I do too.
We’re still testing this cause we have inconsistent results and we lack a convincing answer.

Originally Posted by djvynz
Is the pad you use available for purchase?


Sorry, no. I had it made on specifics.

Originally Posted by DesertDuster
I’ve been waiting for this topic to arise because I’ve been using the LightStim for Wrinkles as a heating source and some of its wavelengths are in the NIR spectrum:

Amber (605 nm)
Light red (630 nm)
Dark red (660 nm)
Infrared (855 nm)


Of all those wavelengths, only the last one can really get deeper into your penis tissues. Wavelengths in the ~600-700nm range are at the end of the visible spectrum (red light), and while they do have a (minimally) positive effect on human tissues, interacting with dermal photoreceptors, they do not get deep enough to go beyond dermis. As a consequence, currently they are under study in particular for skin anti-age treatments.
Moreover the LightStim is a wand as I said above, wand are not very effective in PE for obvious reasons.

I’d say the overall emitting power when used in PE is too low in the 850nm range and focused in an area too limited to be effective. I’m actually surprised it gave you results.

Originally Posted by lazerchicken
Would the 850nm LED arrays used for at-night illumination of CCTV camera’s be useful?


I really don’t think so, but I have to admit I never even considered that as a possible source.
Apart from emitting intensity and wavelength, you should be looking for an application that makes it possible to focus radiation on the penis.

Originally Posted by Solvay1927
.
I’d say the overall emitting power when used in PE is too low in the 850nm range and focused in an area too limited to be effective. I’m actually surprised it gave you results.

What type of wattage are we looking for? As you mentioned above, it is also possible to overdo it with either intensity or duration.

This seems promising but in absence of advices regarding material and processes we can’t test your hypothesis.

You say that you’ve been able using an extender and NIR to get over 4cm in the course of 6 month. Can you specify your setup and the process including the reference for the material you use such as we can reproduce the experience ?

Without reproductibily I fear that it’s just theoretical speculation over scientific knowledge.

Studies Etc

If you search “red light penis” you should be able to pull up studies in the use of red light/NIR on the penis. They do seem to indicate a far better result/effect than FIR. I have purchased products from Novaalabs that seem to work well. The heating impact is interesting, not so much a feeling of heat in the surface, but a general feeling of warmth within. They do make a pad that can loosely wrap around a tube, and also a few wands for more point related focus. I know there are other brands just chose this one based on review of the product, etc. I have zero relationship with them.

Can you share the product that you used? It would be a great starting point to look into.

Otherwise we are just guessing and from your results, I know I would like to do my best to replicate it.

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