Why Near Infrared is better than FIR and US

Since you have the necessary tools in place already, would you consider making actual emission measurements with NIR. To find out the penetration capacity and absorption rate at the tissue as well
Turn the pad emitting, place it against your shaft, and measure the penetration capacity on your distal shaft. If your theory is solid, compressing the shaft behind the glans to a certain thickness should yield some results as the shaft around there is thin enough for such an experiment. It may need to cover the rest of the pad surrounding the shaft area though for having the measurement done properly.

Yes, the application was missing in general as there is very little to no information available if the devices available do make any impact on tissue below the skin. Or is there capacity to make anything already absorbed at the layers of the skin?
None of the growth responses generated in the skin won´t emulate anything on the cavernous tissues as the parts have separate blood supply the upregulated growth factors etc . are not circulated into cavernous tissue.

To be honest, Your application was missing as well at the time of my initial reply. Afterwards, bit by bit you have revealed it though.
So generally it has the main specs similar to commercially available products others have suggested. The difference being it has been knitted in the pad form.
Although you have not revealed the beam angle of the LEDs used etc. It will make some difference in the outcome, depending on the distance to the skin I suppose?
Can it even be in direct skin contact if the light sources heat up to a temperature not tolerated?

You did gain some impressive results and the reader of course assumes it is all about the application you have manufactured.
The therapy times of 15 minutes prior to the several hours spent in the extender are minuscule efforts to yield such a significant response on really simple, usually not-so-productive exercises.
You are not saying it loud out, but do you credit the gains on the NIR? How can you exclude the benefit of heat? Or is the heat production such insignificant that can´t be the main contributor if at all?

One thing I have to criticize a bit is the marketing-type output over ultrasound. As the heat has been associated with being the main contributor to the temporary strain allowing the process to start, the non-thermal effects of the ultrasound are not to be ignored for the growth responses yielding the following permanent growth.
On paper, ultrasound has been associated with a whole bunch of growth responses over various tissue types as well.

NIR exposure can have various effects on cellular growth and tissue regeneration. It has been reported to enhance cell proliferation, stimulate mitochondrial activity, increase collagen synthesis, promote angiogenesis (formation of new blood vessels), and modulate inflammatory responses. These effects are believed to be mediated by the interaction of NIR with cellular components, such as chromophores (light-absorbing molecules) and mitochondrial enzymes, leading to the activation of cellular signaling pathways involved in growth and repair.
Ultrasound has been studied for its ability to promote tissue regeneration, wound healing, and bone fracture repair. It is thought to stimulate cellular processes such as cell migration, proliferation, and the synthesis of extracellular matrix components. The mechanisms underlying these effects are still being investigated but may involve the activation of mechanotransduction pathways and the release of growth factors.

In my contribution to PE, I have concentrated only on the benefits of the therapeutic heat for starting the tissue elongation process in the first place.
Being under the radar with the non-thermal effects on the final outcome does not mean they are not there. Maybe a huge contributor at the end. Who knows?

In general, both have a major influence on cellular growth acting via different pathways. I found these methods complementary between not excluding either by claiming one over another.
As for user comfort and convenience, the NIR is better than the ultrasound for sure.

Both methods do sound great in vitro. The fact is both can have tremendous effects in the laboratory, both have been studied to be beneficial to promote bone growth in limb lengthening. NIR has been found beneficial in skin expansion protocols I recall. As for the ligament, deep fascia or any kind of tunica albuginea-like tissue elongation processes the data remains non-existing.
Tissue trauma healing and wound healing etc. processes need to be separated from the long-term tissue elongation processes as the mechanism is not the same.
As far as we are concerned, this is the platform where these methods are put to trial. I wish I had the resources to study the tissue responses, a few of the questions would be answered already I would think.

How would you monitor so that you do not apply too high of a dose of NIR?

While it is, with better performances than most IR pads you will find on the market, unfortunately it’s not a good device for PE.
First of all, the shape: the biggest advantage of IR pads is that you can wrap them around the penis, so that the irradiation has a radial simmetry - IR comes from all around. This balances the only real disadvantage we have in using NIR on the penis: since its radius is only few cm, it’s almost impossible to wrap the pad in a way that puts its surface in direct contact with the skin, which would be a major plus.
At least, when you wrap the pad cilindrically around the penis the radiation is not in direct contact but it’s focused towards the center.

Your panel may provide a big planar radiation source: it’s meant for large areas (the back, the chest, legs). It’s going to be very limited for PE. As you said, you have to shield testicles to avoid excessive radiation and heat (yes, metal foils work very well to shield electromagnetic waves, but they’re going to get hot), you have to place it very close to your body and in the end it will only irradiate one side of your penis.

About the distance: while EM radiation decrease with the square of the distance, the major dissipating effect for IR (as well as visible light) is surface scattering. If you place an emitting planar source directly in touch with the skin, let’s say you get 100mW power. If you move it 10mm further, you’re going to get a lot less than that, even if the distance only amount to a minimal part of that decrement.
I’ll try attaching a common picture to show this.

It’s always the same chinese pad, just rebranded. It works fine (average), even if probably it’s not going to work for that long.

Unfortunately, I have the equipment only in my company’s lab, where I’m never alone (not to mention security cameras), so whipping out my penis would probably result in worse consequences than becoming the lab’s jester :D

For a while I considered smuggling out a radiometer to perform my tests at home, but it’s too dangerous. That’s why unfortunately I have to base all my hypotheses about real IR penetration depth in the penis tissues upon the results of the tests we carried out on human tissues in the lab.
More recently I’ve been considering buying my own equipment to be more serious in this PE effort, but that would push me towards starting my own business in this sense, something I’m not really looking ahead to.

Actually, in the last 3 to 5 years a few specific medical treatments started to become mainstream (and that’s probably why in the same period scientific literature drastically increased), for example infrared prostate therapy. It started with far infrared, now it’s becoming more and more common with near infrared.
I feel like another reason for lack of serious consideration is most NIR therapies end up in cosmetic applications, and the scientific environment doesn’t consider well therapies aimed at reducing wrinkles.

The pad is wrapped cylindrally around the penis, at a distance of ~1cm from the skin. I actually tried to request from the supplier a pad that would make possible to wrap with direct skin contact, but a ~2cm radius is too small.
As I just mentioned in another post a direct skin contact would be better, reducing radiation scattering by the surface, but at least the cylindrical wrapping focus the radiation towards the center and at 1cm distance the widest majority of the emitted radiation reach the skin anyway.
I have a few more remarks about interference of the penis pump cylinder, but it’s something I’ve been experimenting only recently and I can’t make statements about it already; let’s just say I’m considering using the NIR pad before, to use the pump only after I finished the 30m irradiation.

About heat: after 30 minutes at maximum intensity the penis is obviously heated up, but not to the point it can’t be tolerated. An IR thermometer measures a temperature of ~41°C.

Not at all: I think heat is a relevant part of the picture. The way I see it: NIR radiation works both ways.
It triggers photoreceptors in body cells, fostering proliferation and - probably more important for PE application - procollagen synthesis.
It also provides heat in a slower, more easily controllable way than FIR (I have no experience about US), but nonetheless it can bring the penis tissues to the same temperature range we know destabilizes the collagen matrix and enables faster growth.

So I’m not saying heat is not involved. I only think that only counts for a 25/30%.

Me too.
Sometimes I think that perhaps in just a few years the entire penis growth issue will be solved, when some major company (like the one I work for, perhaps) will start understanding that the commercial advantage of developing the first reliable method to make it grow will be far more relevant than the scientific outcry for such an application of science.
After all, I don’t understand why the industry spends billions on developing cream and products to reduce wrinkles, while there’s close to zero serious research on this.

The benefit to this specific pad I have found is the size (half the number of LEDs and area of the one you mentioned that is much more common). Fold it in half and velcro it together with the provided strap, it is almost perfect to fit fight around a flaccid penis. At least half of it is in almost direct contact, and it creates a notable warming effect after only a few minutes. Have not ever tried thermometer down the dick hole, but that would provide a better look at the internal tissue heating effects.

The information I can get suggests that In general, you can expect a significant fraction of the NIR light to be absorbed by the skin and superficial tissues, with the intensity of the light decreasing exponentially with depth.
So at the depth of the tunica albuginea, we can suppose that even if there is deep enough penetration only a tiny fraction of the intensity is left.

It would mean the superficial tissues also heat up at high potential and the heating effect decreases dramatically with every millimeter penetrating deeper.
I have produced a series of data concerning urethral temperature with ultrasound with the results being undisputed evidence of the efficacy of the application.

Since the heat elevation would be a clear indicator of the penetration depth and corresponding intensity as well, I suggest monitoring the urethral temperature with your application to find out the exact capability.

Starring at the numbers you provided I have to say I doubt the intensity of the at-depth of the tunica albuginea is enough to make temperature elevation high enough to make any difference in the outcome.
The surface temperature needs to be a few degrees higher(close to 45C) with such a method for reaching more than at least ~39C at the tunica level. Staying below the impact on the collagen structure deformation is next to nothing.
Unless you have something concrete to tell about the supposed intensity at different depths in soft tissue others can´t find, It is very hard to accept any of the claims quoted.

I really suggest you make a similar to the below probe and find out for yourself how the application really works at the desired depth.
20200531_090826.jpg
This has two k-type thermocouples coated with a heat shrink tube. My newest iteration includes four ultrathin k-type thermocouples and is intended to be coated with silicon rubber.

Where do you base the claim of temperature elevation counting 25/30% of the total outcome?

@magicman57 Does the belt you bought on Amazon heat up very well. I would be wrapping it around my tube while pumping and I had an old belt that wore out that I liked because of the temperature it reached.

It heats well in direct contact, not certain about further distances away. It has multiple light levels, make sure you are using the highest.

Good to see some info in this area solvay1927. Look forward to following you and the other folks who are trying this out, great to see how it works or can help for PE.

Putting a thermocouple up your urethra is really annoying I ended up doing it when looking at FIR, a couple of others did too. I would understand completely when people don’t want to do that. Before I did that though I ended up using a penis model made with sausage meat first just to see if it can penetrate through a similar type of meat, if it couldn’t do that it definitely won’t on a penis. I had the thermocouples in the middle. Obviously a very trivial model as it doesn’t have the various layers in the penis and the body’s cooling affect etc but I found that as a good start before going the thermocouple in the urethra approach. Maybe you can start with a basic model, save your urethra 😄

I would prefer everyone eat the sausages instead.
Taking in consideration the position solvay has, none of the half ass measures wont do.
We should expect more. And this is not intended to be disrespectful in any way.
Fir guys Unfortunately left everything halfway, hopefully this time it is done properly before jumping in.
Everyone seems to be looking for shortcuts. Unfortunately there ain’t any.

In the end it all comes back to this: the fundamental, traditional question "how deep IR wavelengths really get".
Yes, of course I have data - that’s been a very important part of my job for years - but if I can’t even publish a scientific paper about it, you can easily see why I can’t divulge results on a forum for what amounts to a personal interest. After all, please keep in mind I’m doing this to convey basic iinformation, not to convince anybody of anything.
That said, you can actually find a lot of data, if you access scientific papers published in the last decade. Really, a lot. The real problem is, making sense of it.

There are 4 major ways to provide an answer to that question: 1) using a simulation, 2) growing tissues in a lab, 3) using animals, 4) using parts of a human body/cadaver.
While the fourth one for obvious reasons is by far the most effective and definitive, as you can guess it’s also by far the most difficult and rare in private research.
The problem with the other 3 methods is, they do not produce the same results.

Up to 10/12 years ago there were many mathematical models about it, and finite elements simulations based on those delivered most of the results that became so ubiquitous. They often reported penetration depth of ~2mm for the 808nm wavelenght and ~1mm for 660nm (which by itself is kind of amazing - you can literally see weak red light passing through thicker layers of skin).
Then a few tests with animal tissues came out and delivered very different results, even among themselves. It was evident we lacked some major understanding about the basic physical model behind it.
That’s when most private companies started investing on tests performed on tissues grown in a lab. That’s by far the most common method today: tests on a skin layer in a petri dish usually measured a penetration depth of ~5mm for 850nm. The problem is, these tissues usually are way thinner than most people realize. You don’t grow a thick muscle (or a penis) in a petri dish.

In the meantime, few tests on human cadavers started appearing, thanks to public research aimed at specific diseases. Probably two thirds of the tests over the years have been to measure IR penetration in the human skull/head, the rest about muscles or, more recently, the prostate. What did they found?
Quantitative analysis of transcranial and intraparenchymal light penetration in human cadaver brain tissue - PubMed :

Further research ensued. Now it’s fair to say everyone working on this developed a particular, different model of the human tissues/body to perform better analyses, and perhaps everyone justified the different results (I’m thinking for example different results from animal tissues tests) by recnognizing different factors.

Of course, we’re just discussing maximum depth; it’s a different thing to understand the effective power of radiation reaching deep tissues.
The answer to that must consider the specific ‘tissue’ we’re discussing now: the penis. Its own very particular shape and position make it possible to use IR irradiation wrapped all around it, something you can’t do for targets that are bigger (i.e., the brain) or deeper (the prostate).
Unless you have 20cm flaccid girth, your penis is smaller than your wrist. IR radiation can get to the center of it, and the cylindrical simmetry provides an obvious advantage: if radiation power decrease with the depth, it also get focused towards the center. The inner part is smaller and requires less energy than the outer layer.

There’s a final remark I want to do about power: NIR brings minimal danger. If you really want to increase the generated heat, you can just use it for longer periods of time.
Shorter wavelengths (UV, X, gamma) are way more dangerous for their carcinogenic capability. Higher ones (FIR and microwaves) are more dangerous precisely because they generate too much heat - you’re literally cooking your penis in a microwave oven.
So if you need to make sure you get to the temperature range where collagen matrix destabilizes, I’d say you only have to use stronger pads or the same power for longer periods of time (probably ~45 minutes). The fact I got results without reaching those temperatures should speak for himself about the efficacy of NIR radiation without the need to anneal your inner tissues.
Can I promise everyone will get the same results? Of course not. On the contrary, I’m pretty sure everyone will be different, to a degree. After all there’s people who gained inches just by wearing the extender, something that for me never worked, so it would be absurd to come here promising everyone the magical solution.

As I said, I don’t want to convince anybody of anything. Even if you doubt me, tho, I think everyone can accept that NIR is not even remotely as uncomfortable, complicated or - way worse - dangerous as FIR and US.