Finding xeno: a penis tale

Hey Mr. F.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of collagen structures in the tunica is superficial at best.

Collagen molecules arrange into triple helices to form microfibrils which then do the same to form fibrils, which then do the same to form full fibers, which then arrange themselves into bundles and alignments for whatever tissue they are a part of. So it is like a bunch of strings that are tied end to end and woven into a rope, which is then woven into a larger rope, and then woven into a larger rope, and then several of those ropes are structurally arranged into a functional tissue.

Here are some electron microscope images of the tunica from a Peyronie’s study.
https://onlinel ibrary.wiley.co … 0X.1997.26511.x

And here’s a couple diagrams showing the multi level nature of collagen structures.

Some electron microscope images of the macro level of a tendon.
https://www.sci encedirect.com/ … 742706117300065

Your guess is as good as mine as to what the exact nature of the microdamage we do with PE looks like. I don’t really know whether tears happen to individual fiber bundles each in their own location, or span across several fibers in the same localized area, or extend through entire fibers, or even at what level of the collagen bundle the damage happens. We might be making huge tears at the macro level that then fill in with scar tissues. Or we might be making micro tears at the smallest levels that are filled in with microfibrils that are then incorporated in a fully function and healthy (and larger) macro level tissue. Maybe new fibers aren’t being formed at all, but the macro level structure are being thinned out. Maybe some combination of these.

Perhaps some physician on the board, or orthodontist (they do a similar process elongating tooth ligaments), or somebody with a doctorate of physical therapy would know more about it.

So thanks BD for the PMs that got me started on this. And thanks Xeno for the idea. I’m 23 mins in already, and no pressure on the glans, no circulation problems - I’d been on 4.4kg just before this, so starting off with 1.75kg as I’m placing it near the base and my thinking is that there is less shaft to take the weight, so could fatigue earlier - will see.

I modified my hanger as well but I have a BiB starter not the Hardcore and seems that some of the dimensions are a bit different. As in, the top teeth measurements once I took away the gel pads, were smaller than the ones that Xeno measured and weren’t getting in the way of anything even when the front bottom bolt was splayed as wide as it could go, so didn’t bother doing any filing of teeth. I did have to file a bit in the top bolt channel, but only a smidgen, and had to also bend the forward bolt a bit. The rear bottom bolt side that is replaced with the zip tie doesn’t seem to really move around much, almost like it doesn’t need the zip tie.

So a few differences it seems, but the principle I get now, where it ‘sits’ on top of the shaft. The only things I’m not sure about is whether to bother with the Theraband. I’d cut some ready to glue, but then realized my Superglue was dried out - but wanted to test anyway so at the moment just using the same wrap I had before. It works right now with 1.75kg but to me even at this weight, it feels a lot more like a skin stretch, rather than having it clamped onto the ligs. Is that right, or maybe need the Theraband for better girp? But I think you mentioned skin stretch before - perhaps that’s how it feels initially?

Cheers

I’m sorry I remember now Xeno said that about the weight not the amount of ads use. Specifically when deciding whether 1 or 2 cc is enough. He says 1 is enough. And that a little weight is better than none and a lot is not much better than a little.

Girth before lenght. Interesting. I had forgotten about that. I have been hanging one day prior to soft tissue work. But maybe it’s better the other way around based on your observations. Although, I can see with cc ads it would be ok. But hanging after soft tissue work would be rather brutal.

Regarding cock ring use. That thread describes a guy who clamped for 7min 3 times a week and wore a cock ring all day and night and gained 1.8 inches in girth. Hmmm

BD, that’s absolutely fantastic, that answer exceeded my expectations completely; thank you so much.

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that the level at which the separation/tearing occurs matters less than how the forces are probably affecting the overall structure.

Assuming the section of Tunica in the figure 1.a image (https://onlinel ibrary.wiley.co … 0X.1997.26511.x ) has been oriented with the fibres running top to bottom for the sake of the photo, and assuming that rather than running top to bottom, they actually wrap laterally around the diameter of the penis, then:

I think cock rings probably aren’t going to do much to help radial growth because they’re nowhere near going to create the kind of force that’s going to force the tunica into a shape where its torn areas are going to be held open.

Obviously I can’t say definitively, but if the object of a cock ring is to hold the rends/tears within the tunica open, it would have to hold it in the same position as in which those rends/tears were made, or at least close to, which a cock ring is probably not going to get anywhere near. It’s possible that people who see gains using a cock ring are seeing gains they’d have achieved whether they used one or not.

As for Cock Coils, I’m guessing, if you can’t do anything for girth, you may as well try and improve length, and a Cock Coil should probably help in that respect, assuming the Cock Coil should at least pull the gaps in the lateral strands open.

Xenolith seemed to believe that Cock Coils would only get you about 10% extra growth. If that’s correct, then 10% over (for example) 5 cycles, is an extra 50%, so assuming you can wear them comfortably and without issues, I’d say it’s totally worth doing (I myself used to hang weights like an ads; in comparison, Cock Coils as an ADS, are orders of magnitude more convenient.

But, having said that, if you go with the weights that Xeno recommended they’ll almost certainly do nothing for ligament stretching. They’re good for soft tissue, if the soft tissue is disrupted enough to create rends/tears in the fibres of the Tunica to begin with.

That’s all based on the assumption that the fibres run diametrically and not longitudinally.

So, yeah, I’d say Cock Coils are the way to go, and I’d also say that Cock Rings are probably ineffective as an aid to radial growth.

I’d imagine whatever growth or increase of size people are seeing through the use of cock rings are either due to improvements in e.q, growth they would have gotten anyway, or errors of perception.

Obviously the majority of people that support Cock Rings as an aid to radial growth will fight you tooth and nail to defend their position (because that’s just generally what people do with any belief), so I’d urge caution in trying to disabuse them of such a belief. As an addendum to that I’d suggest that just going along to get along with these people, and telling them what they want to hear, is technically potentially being an enabler, but…lets not go there.

No need to apologies, I probably should have made that assumption; not sure why I didn’t. The more I thought about it, it began to seem more and more that he must have meant weight rather than time; I think not just assuming he meant weight was probably a mistake on my part.

I had read the post where he originally wrote that but hadn’t made a note of it and didn’t remember the context.

I’ve since read another post where it’s suggested that you don’t need to do that much ADS, just a little but at the right time (when the fibroblasts are laying down collagen?) but pinning down that time-frame isn’t something I have information on. That’s something I’d imagine BD would know, I think it was his progress thread in which that was suggested.

I’m not sure about that to be honest, I used to do very little soft tissue work when I was hanging, but don’t really remember if it had an effect on my hanging sets.

What I would say is that hanging is mainly focused on the ligs and to some extent the septum and has relatively little to do with soft tissue growth. Xeno ended up giving up hanging entirely in favour of two types of stretch, the Sumo Stretch and the Bucking Bronco stretch, and tissue disruption as part of an IPR routine. He basically abandoned hanging entirely.

Generally speaking, cock rings might help with blood flow, which in turn might help growth, but I don’t think the expansion you’d get with a cock ring would be enough to force the tunica apart far enough to open up the rends/tears in such a way that it would help radial growth via that mechanism in any really meaningful way.

Also, that guy described in the thread might have been an outlier that would have gained anyway.

If it were possible to chart people’s potential for growth on a graph, you’d almost certainly get a bell curve, where the majority of people are closer to the middle of the curve than they are to either end. Those are unusual cases and, at least in terms of probability, it’s best (at lest to start off with) to work with the assumption that, as individuals, we’ll conform to the average. A method can’t really be proven by success of two or three people out of a thousand. If it only works for those 2 or 3 people and not the other 997 people, then all we can really say is that the method works, but only for 0.2 to 0.3 % of people.

I’ve been fiddling with the modified BiB hanger all morning.

I got some superglue and glued on bits of an old swim cap to the ribs. But it seems that all I was getting was skin stretch - so in the end I did file the teeth down so that the top could close more. Found then that I couldn’t hang directly like that as it pinched at the bottom, and again too much skin stretch against the swim cap, so did a bandage wrap first (just 1.5 times around) and that’s better. Then still had what felt like skin stretch, so tightened the wing nut of the flared out bolt a touch. I’m hanging now, but still feels like a lot of skin stretch at the top of the shaft - anyone has any ideas, is that how it’s supposed to feel?

I didn’t take notes on the hanger as I don’t intend to hang again but iirc skin collecting behind the glans was to be expected and I think it was part of what helped to hold the hanger on.

But, as I say, I didn’t take notes on that, I just skimmed over it briefly, so it’s probably something you’ll need to read back over.

If other members of the forum have that information, hopefully they’ll post in response.

Thanks - yeah it’s not the skin in front of hanger towards glans, it’s the bit between base of shaft to hanger - a lot of skin stretch there to the point now that I can’t continue. Something definitely wrong.

Oh okay. Not sure what to say about that. Best person to ask is Bearded Dragon; he got his working and might be able to give you some advice on it.

Have abandoned the modified hanger for now - just can’t get it to work and needed to still get my sets in today. So have modified it back for the present…

I wouldn’t discard it though. I know I said it didn’t work for me before, but given your hypothesis on the tears, I think I am going to revisit using one. They might not create tears, but they can probably hold tears open. Take for example, the anecdote of the guy gaining 1.8 inches by wearing it all day, post clamping I presume. I highly doubt that clamping 3 times a week, and not wearing a cock coil, to give those results. But together they might.

I am thinking that wearing a cock ring and an ADS for length, simultaneously, post “I” Phase (girth+length work, or length+girth work), under your hypothesis, would retain tears open in both axis, providing the most optimal “scaffolding” for new collagen deposition. Assuming the hypothesis is true, then radial tears would be held open in both the direction of the tear itself, by the cock ring, and perpendicular to the tear by the CC. Length tears would be held open in the direction of the tear itself by the CC, and perpendicularly by the cock ring. Providing some sort of matrix expansion of the tunicas radial and longitudical layers.

The question would then be, as you mentioned, when exactly the fibroblasts deposit the new collagen, so as to ensure the optimum point for new collagen to fill in the scaffolding array we set up.

Check this out:
Muscle injuries and strategies for improving their repair | Journal of Experimental Orthopaedics | Full Text

Taking muscle repair of a muscle injury to be a proxy for penile repair due to trauma, aka stress and tear, which is quite similar to each other, and the resembling similarities in muscle fiber and tunica fibers, I think it can be safe, or even safer to use than general wound healing. As wound healing is in fact general.

Specially since we are talking about tears in fibers. Not cuts and pieces of torn flesh. Also, the timeline of repair for muscle and other tissue, should be similar given the similar nature of fibers and fiber composition being proteins, and such.

Given the proxy, the article suggests:
"Muscle regeneration usually starts during the first 4–5 days after injury, peaks at 2 weeks, and then gradually diminishes 3 to 4 weeks after injury. It’s a multiple steps process including activation/proliferation of SC, repair and maturation of damaged muscle fibers and connective tissue formation."

The whole process lasts a month. Noticed the mention of the 2 weeks, which seems to keep coinciding with a lot of anecdotal evidence that is when growth occurs, or gains show.

Days 1-4:
"Active muscle degeneration and inflammation occur within the first few days after injury. The initial event is necrosis of the muscle fibers, which is triggered by disruption of local homeostasis"

There is a glaring resemblance in the above statement to I phase here in my experience.

"After muscle degeneration, neutrophils are the first inflammatory cells infiltrating the lesion. A large number of pro-inflammatory molecules such as cytokines (TNF-α, IL-6), chemokine (CCL17, CCL2) and growth factors (FGF, HGF, IGF-I, VEGF; TGF-β1) are secreted by neutrophils in order to create a chemoattractive microenvironment for other inflammatory cells such as monocytes and macrophages (Tidball 1995; Toumi and Best 2003). Two types of macrophages are identified during muscle regeneration (McLennan 1996), which appear sequentially during muscle repair (Arnold et al. 2007). M1 macrophages, defined as pro-inflammatory macrophages, act during the first few days after injury,. contribute to cell lysis, removal of cellular debris and stimulate myoblast proliferation. Conversely, M2 macrophages, defined as anti-inflammatory macrophages, act 2 to 4 days after injury, attenuate the inflammatory response and favor muscle repair by promoting myotubes formation (Tidball and Wehling-Henricks 2007; Chazaud 2014; Chazaud et al. 2003). Macrophages, infiltrating injured muscle, are key players of the healing process (Zhao et al. 2016), able to participate in the muscle regeneration process or to favor fibrosis (Munoz-Canoves and Serrano 2015; Lemos et al. 2015)."

In summary: Days 1-2, myoblast proliferation, days 2-3 myotubes formation, 4-5 days, regeneration of tissue, peaks at 2 weeks, ends 3-4 weeks from injury.

I’d say collagen deposition happens at 4-5 days going forward, but days 1-4 are probably important as well. Wearing an ADS for at least 2 weeks seems optimal.

Also the growth factor IGF-1 is mentioned as being quite important in speeding and promoting growth. The same hormone responsible for growth during puberty, when is when ones penis grows the most.

It is said that fasting increases IGF-1 by 2000%. I think after the 14th hour of fasting around. Intermittent fasting could provide a good environment for PE.

To be fair, most of this stuff is the work of others, I’m just trying to draw it together in a way that’s accessible and trying to clarify a few things at the same time.

I can’t really take credit for this stuff. The findings and the work that’s been done to get this far is all the work of other people. All I’m really doing is trying to get it clear, both in my own mind and for people who might read this thread.

Also, personally I’m not going to be wearing a cock ring for PE because I don’t have faith in the engorgement it might create being enough to actually open the tears a significant enough amount to make a meaningful difference. But that having been said, if you feel it’ll help I wish you luck with it. At the very least it might go some way towards promoting blood-flow, which might promote faster healing.

Thanks for posting that; I need to actually read up on the technical documents behind all of this stuff. I’ve not yet done so. I’ve just been relying on the reading and testing done by other forum members.

I’ve seen links to the wound healing page on Wikipedia posted quite frequently to this and I think BeardedDragons progress thread.

I’m yet to look into it all, but I was thinking today that I should do that.

I’m going to go back through the threads and collect together the links to the different studies etc. and take a look at them. So far I’ve been tied up with researching the tools and methods rather than the theory.

It might take me a while to digest the information, but the more I read about this stuff the more I realise it’s something I’d probably benefit from a deeper understanding of.

Not going to make a start on it tonight because I’m pretty exhausted and just about falling asleep, but I’m definitely going to take a look into it. I think BeardedDragon actually has an idea of the time frames already but it’ll be good to compare results once I’ve had a chance to digest it.

You’ll have to post your thoughts on it too?

You mean on the timeline?

It’s hard to say but I go by markers based on PIs. I think that resting 1 week has been sort of the sweet spot for me. I do this also for my muscles. For my muscles it takes about a week or 4 days at least before I can lift the same body part effectively with the same or more strength. For PE it takes more than 4 days as I can still notice black spots on penis, and some swelling or puffiness. At 1 week the swelling and puffiness is gone, my PIs are good, EQ is good. It feels like my penis is workable again. My sessions are intense though. I go all out.

After 1 week I train again, and repeat. However, I am going on a trip for 2 weeks I won’t be able to do anything, so it will be interesting to see what happens if I take 2-3 weeks off.

An update on the cock ring and CC use. I’ve been wearing a cock ring for most of the day and night. I couldn’t wear it last night because the ring irritates the skin it gets really painful after a while. I found putting Lodacaine works and numbs the pain. I also use Lodacaine for I phase TTr use by the way. Best pain suppressant I can recommend. But the erections post I Phase have been incredible. Rock solid and ~+1 inches above normal girth. It’s probably a 6.5 or 7” girth with the cock ring and solid as a rock. It’s probably all puffiness and fluid buildup but I can’t understand why it’s so solid. It feels like the CC and CS are in a constant state of maximum capacity above normal. I experienced this before, some time ago, and got really excited, but once I took the cock ring away it all went away. However, I only wore it during the day, not at night, and only for a day or two. Now I am planning to ride out this phenomenon 24hr a day for a week or two if I can. I will report what happens.

The awesome thing is that I could literally have sex with a 6.5” or 7” girth penis right now. It even stays like that after taking the cock ring off. It looks rather monstrous but I don’t think girls would think “oh he probably is working it and that’s why it looks so abnormal” they probably just think it’s normal and this guy has a big one. Even if it is temporary, the effect lasts for a day or two, so far.

And wearing a CC for the day, since at night I can’t.

that’s awsome, man. Think I’ll get some lidocaine for extender ballsack burn.